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UNGY-04 Who do they think they are?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession Games' started by ungy, Jul 31, 2008.

  1. Rusten

    Rusten Deity

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    I'm still around. Ungy's up next indeed but I can take the save if we don't hear anything soon.
     
  2. ungy

    ungy Deity

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    sorry guys I've been having internet problems but good now--except can't play for 3-4 days.
    Why don't you take this Rusten and I'll come in after you?
     
  3. Rusten

    Rusten Deity

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    Ok--I've got it then.

    Some opening thoughts;
    - we should work our best tiles such as copper and seafood even if it means growing into unhappiness. If we 2-pop whip units and buildings it won't be a problem (as we'll have the UB, monarchy and calendar resources to compensate before we have a problem).
    - I'll give Shaka pigs for 2 gpt.

    More importantly--we have the option of gifting Shaka mathematics for 40 gold. If we do this he should bump up to pleased making attacks less likely, but the question is whether it's already too late? Maybe he's already entered war-mode but he does have a 90% peace probability on pleased which could prove useful (assuming he's not in WHEOOH already). We're going to have to get him to pleased to trade for (the few possible) techs anyway so the sooner the better. Not having IW or alphabet has a really bad effect on our power rating.

    I was going to play this now but I really want to know how we stand on gifting mathematics first so I'll wait.

    - I'll get started on a settler in Mutal and settle for the fur--1 extra happiness is always appreciated and the city will go into surplus immediately.
     
  4. mystyfly

    mystyfly Knight of Cydonia

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    I'm back now but won't have much time next week unfortounately...

    I'm fine with gifting maths for 40g. Keeping shaka at least at pleased is important.

    I'm also happy we skipped the colossus.

    Also we must make sure shaka doesn't capture any barb cities on our conti (if he should go for them) or we'll have lots of -ves from close borders.

    A chariot on shaka's island would be nice to scout his lands and cities.
     
  5. pigswill

    pigswill fly (one day)

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    I´m OOP until September 6/7. Staying with the in-laws in Brazil (obviously with access to CFF though not the game itself).

    I´m ok with mathematics to Shaka. While it might to too late already it might not be, so its worth trying.

    Is it worth chopping the library in Mayapan to speed up its culture and research?
     
  6. Rusten

    Rusten Deity

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    We might actually pull through here--even given our unlucky roll. I played 14 turns and had some good events.

    I finish construction 200 BC and Shaka pops up immediately.



    I obviously gave it to him. I'm not sure whether this was lucky or not for us but in my experience the AI has rarely decided to go to war if it asks for assistance. I don't think this is a 100% thing though--just a feeling I've been having, I should look into it for documentation. We were just barely at pleased though (mathematics gave only +2 boost) so this adds another 3 (+2 for fair deals and +1 for helping him).

    The great news--Shaka has founded a religion :dance:



    Now if only confucianism could spread to our cities we might actually get Shaka up to friendly. This would be truly huge as we'd be 100% safe from war and be able to trade for techs too.

    A look at the tech screen shows that Shaka does not have monarchy yet. Seeing as we only have 1 calendar resource and are running out of things to build (units next) I go for monarchy first. HR is much more important for us and if we can get Shaka to friendly we'll be able to trade for the other techs anyway making trading for monarchy less important.

    [Unfortunately Shaka finished teching monarchy 2 turns before we have it meaning there's a chance we might've been able to trade for it. There was no way of knowing that though, and if he goes for calendar next we wouldn't have it in time for trading anyway.]

    A barbarian galley pops up 75 BC. Fortunately I'm about to chop a forest so I do get a galley out in time to defend. I really wish there was a more effective counter to this though--this time we got lucky and defeated the galley, but there's a pretty big chance of losing the battle (even when defending) which means losing 80 hammers or more and the great tile temporarily. I feel implementing this was a mistake in the 3.17 patch--the spawn rate is too high compared to what you can do to counter it. When it comes to normal land barbarians you have counter units but that's not the case here until MC which comes too late and is too expensive to get for barb protection only.



    I have a work boat scouting the south of Shaka's island for (war) galleys and a galley scouting the north for the same reason (you can see his SoD idling there).

    Our peace treaty with Shaka ended this turn so there's another thing to discuss;

    - We have him at pleased and he has gold in the bank meaning that we can try begging for something putting off any attack another 10 turns.

    good = more time to get him to friendly assuming he hasn't decided to attack us yet.
    bad = we can't get 10 turns to build a force of units if he does decide to attack us.

    - not ask for gold and save it for later.

    good = if he's already in WHEOOH we can get 10 turns to build up our defense by asking for a gift just before he crosses our borders.
    bad = he might enter WHEOOH soon before we have a chance of getting him to friendly (which isn't that easy--we'll need more than immediate conversion to confucianism).



    Calakmul is currently working the fur, but that's only for 2 turns so that Mayapan can grow. Re-assign the farm to Calakmul afterwards--there should be enough cottages to go around by then. Camp the other fur as well--if we have 2 of a resource Shaka might ask for it resulting in boosted diplomacy (the forested fur is also a great tile to work).



    We'll have a very high happy and health cap right now so grow the cities as much as possible by working the tiles with a lot of food (even if that means coast imo).
     

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  7. ungy

    ungy Deity

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    Rusten--nice going as usual:)
    Shaka getting religion--wow.
    We are on path to get him to friendly--especially if we can get another request as you mention with the fur. Kind of an odd race--the relations to friendly vs. the inevitable DOW from Shaka. We have real chances if we can get him friendly.

    I can't play for a few days so silverbullet (or anyone who can play sooner) can swap with me.
     
  8. mystyfly

    mystyfly Knight of Cydonia

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    Looks like we're in a good position. I'd beg for the gold and get some more turns of guaranteed peace and hope to get him to friendly in this time.

    Question about long term tech path: Do we want to tech compass/astronomy and aviod the liberalism race? With no GPs there's a big chance we'll lose liberalism anyway and getting astronomy early is a huge boost.
     
  9. Rusten

    Rusten Deity

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    Helps just having 1 SG to focus on. ;) Planning to keep it that way until the next SGOTM.

    That was what I had in mind too, but seeing as CoL wen't this late and that the GNPs are low the tech pace should be slower than usual making liberalism possible after all. Maybe there are several isolated civilizations? If we get Shaka to friendly that's another step into the liberalism route as we can trade for (some) of the lower tech tree. If Shaka attacks us going for astronomy is probably safer.
     
  10. silverbullet

    silverbullet King

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    I suggest begging now. I don't really see the advantage of begging later.
    I think we will get his religion in no time, with all our trade routes, and he might make another demand for extra fur, giving us a very quick +10.

    His peace probability is 90% at pleased, meaning we are quite safe anyway, but in any case I wouldn't mind 10 turns of 100% safety NOW.
    If we already have a galley, we should send a scouting unit to his island = we will see his potential SOD and we might get more trade routes with his internal cities.

    I am not sure about the best tech path. Liberalism is possible but is a bit of a gamble, while Astronomy is guaranteed to benefit us no matter what. On the other hand we have useful things on the way to liberalism (bureaucracy, chain irrigation, oxford)

    Why not beeline optics and decide later? We will get compass on the way which will be great for us anyway with cheap harbours and GLH.
     
  11. Rusten

    Rusten Deity

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    Already done--I sent a chariot over there.
     
  12. mystyfly

    mystyfly Knight of Cydonia

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    That's what I suggested too. It'll really help anticipating a war buildup.

    Joined oyzar's team? If so damn you :p I would've gotten that spot otherwise ;) I also want to play in the next SGOTM...
     
  13. Rusten

    Rusten Deity

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    [offtopic]

    I haven't committed to a team yet--but GK is an option.
     
  14. SnowlyWhite

    SnowlyWhite Emperor

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    from what I know, begging and forced peace have nothing to do with wheooh. If he's to declare, he'll go war mode and just wait those 10 turns. Not that I see what he can do beside suiciding, but well, gnp would drop if war.
     
  15. silverbullet

    silverbullet King

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    In that case maybe we should not beg yet. Once we have a chariot in his island we should look for signs of military build-up, and then we should beg to create 10 turn delay.
    I thought that while in peace treaty they cannot decide to make war, but I guess I was wrong. So we are only safe if he doesn't decide to declare before becoming friendly. There is nothing much more that we can do then other than wait and hope for religion spread.
     
  16. mystyfly

    mystyfly Knight of Cydonia

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    I agree, wait for signs and then beg if necessary. The longer we know shaka the bigger gifts we can get.

    Do you plan on playing silverbullet? I won't be able to play until the weekend anyway and I have no idea who is playing here too. Please, everyone here lift a hand :wavey:
     
  17. pigswill

    pigswill fly (one day)

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    I´m still in the game but OOP until September 6.
     
  18. ungy

    ungy Deity

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    OK- I'll take this one. (away again next week)

    First question: do you guys think Shaka will settle a city without a route free of our culture to his continent? While we could beat him to a single site we can't settle everywhere.

    Techwise I would be inclined to forgo lib and beeline astro. My thoughts are we'd get more in tech trading than we'd lose from skipping COL and CS but I'm not sure. I'd be inclined to research IW-compass after monarchy. I don't really like our lib chances from here (although with conf founded by shaka so late I would expect a very late lib from the AI). Still we're at monarchy at 25AD--no ligtbulbs. Just seems like a long road in a short time.

    I'm inclined to favor growth over settlement. Our remaining sites are not compelling and I think growing is crucial here. On the other hand I really don't want to lose sites to Shaka. Any thoughts there?

    I'd say hold off a bit on the beg.

    I'll play tomorrow night.
     
  19. silverbullet

    silverbullet King

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    Hi, sorry, I didn't notice that I was supposed to play. I will take over after Ungy.
    As for expansion, do we currently see a shaka Galley that we think has a settler?
     
  20. SnowlyWhite

    SnowlyWhite Emperor

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    100% sure; had civs. "2 civs. away" from me who still came with the galley and tried to settle(as in, after closing borders, checked in wb and he had a settler in it). In over 20 games like this, I always ended up with a period of closed borders with almost all who were on a neighboring continent. And I always try to settle the "beachead" asap, so it was never a route free of my culture.

    that being said, south of mutal and north of the "blocking city"(1n bronze) there's a spot. Had such a spot open while my closest neighbor was sury(only that and 2 other tiles near it were free from my culture on the whole island) and given the pissing way he uses to settle I was actually expecting a galley - it never showed up however. But if there are clear spots, sooner or later they try to settle(obviously varies, anyway after they filled their continent, everything that was to settle was settled by them or other ais)

    p.s. - however, I strive to settle all my island when neighboring a continent because I'll be less checked for war without sharing a border with someone, so beside my direct neighbor, everyone else would give me lower prio. That being said, in this game you're checked anyway by shaka, so you won't lose much if he settles some crap on your island(obviously losing a good spot would be unpleasant). Since the way the ai garnisons and moves troops, the city it'd be put on your island won't be the one from which he'd launch an attack - the main attack would still come his island -> your hill city so at least you won't lose the defensive value of that city.

    on the other hand, close border negative might screw up friendly, or delay it, especially since shaka ain't exactly the "pious" type and gives only 4 for religion(I think).
     

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