Dirk1302
Deity
Hmm that so? I was under the impression the whole game that we were allowed to settle on non fresh water tiles if the corresponding freshwater spots were not allowed anymore.
UNGY6 The health nuts
- Thread starter ungy
- Start date
SnowlyWhite
Emperor
ok, let's see...
crappy to whip, as yeah, we really have good tiles to work... Also, got abit bored with civ(after 3 years of playing, yeah, it's an event
). Also, started listening to... Bowie(something I've always hated so far)
t 151
ok, switch to optics.
Delete 1 of the wbs in bess' teritory, as the only thing it'd do is eat maintenance.
whip cat. in yaroslav.
yekaterinenburg switched to trireme due to that stupid barb galley(now it's actually moving towards J, but I know those galleys
novgorod - whip cat. and it goes into unhappiness(hate how those 5 cities vary under representation...)
t 152
novgorod starts on harbor(has 4 whips already)
trireme whipped in cathy's
mace whipped in yakutsk
almost good to go, waiting only for the has from the north as anti xbow stack protectors.
t 153
xbow whipped in rostov with overflow in that cat. which was about to be finished anyway.
t 154
xbow whipped in cathy's
xbow whipped in yakutsk
t 156
ha done in st. pete
harbor done in yakutsk
xbow whipped in rostov
good to go when ha comes.
t 157
ha done in moscow
harbor done in novgorod
canceled stone to j, stone to sally for gold and 7gpt(all his cash).
t 158
mate, each game you bored me. I'm very happy to get rid of you one more time.
btw. - sally doesn't want to part with eng.
t 159
very promising start. Lost 2 xbows/ha protector interturn at tops 50% chances. 3 outta 3. Great.
coimbra costs 3 catas and the top mace at 85%... man! Now I remember why I've always hated this kinda wars... 2-3 crap rng rolls and everything is down the drain.
mace whipped in novgorod
xbow whipped in yaroslav
t160
stop for discussion.
Basically, the key troops in the stack are lost. But that's life All rolls under 75% were lost('xcept an axe I think who won at 35, but it's not like we lack axes )
On the other hand
this clown(already worst enemy with bess)
and a very funny tech situation... Someone is doing our techs
Also - we poped a gs. What do we do with him.
Also, trade is open for eng. with sally for optics/philo. Didn't move any reinforcements yet, so we get the 3 moves if we make the trade(the main stack is already moving)
As you can see, J is 1 turn from edu. We all know he'll follow up with econ., but that's another story. He also gracefully bombed our grans. in moscow and novgorod. Also, open to trade to kubbie for all we have(compass/philo/drama); kubbie ain't a sport, and can't be bribed to attack either sally or bess for what we have.
J didn't build castles in either porto or guimaraes, so we should be able to throw him out(he built one in evora, for which we won't have ep, but we can let evora last though that'll mean tons of probs. in lisbon).
Don't mention lib. - our gnp is 130, top gnp is 740 even if liz doesn't have paper or anything
p.s. - yeah, we applied the rule when settling near fresh water was possible.
crappy to whip, as yeah, we really have good tiles to work... Also, got abit bored with civ(after 3 years of playing, yeah, it's an event
). Also, started listening to... Bowie(something I've always hated so far)t 151
ok, switch to optics.
Delete 1 of the wbs in bess' teritory, as the only thing it'd do is eat maintenance.
whip cat. in yaroslav.
yekaterinenburg switched to trireme due to that stupid barb galley(now it's actually moving towards J, but I know those galleys
novgorod - whip cat. and it goes into unhappiness(hate how those 5 cities vary under representation...)
t 152
novgorod starts on harbor(has 4 whips already)
trireme whipped in cathy's
mace whipped in yakutsk
almost good to go, waiting only for the has from the north as anti xbow stack protectors.
t 153
xbow whipped in rostov with overflow in that cat. which was about to be finished anyway.
t 154
xbow whipped in cathy's
xbow whipped in yakutsk
t 156
ha done in st. pete
harbor done in yakutsk
xbow whipped in rostov
good to go when ha comes.
t 157
ha done in moscow
harbor done in novgorod
canceled stone to j, stone to sally for gold and 7gpt(all his cash).
t 158
mate, each game you bored me. I'm very happy to get rid of you one more time.
btw. - sally doesn't want to part with eng.
t 159
very promising start. Lost 2 xbows/ha protector interturn at tops 50% chances. 3 outta 3. Great.
coimbra costs 3 catas and the top mace at 85%... man! Now I remember why I've always hated this kinda wars... 2-3 crap rng rolls and everything is down the drain.
mace whipped in novgorod
xbow whipped in yaroslav
t160
stop for discussion.
Basically, the key troops in the stack are lost. But that's life
All rolls under 75% were lost('xcept an axe I think who won at 35, but it's not like we lack axes )On the other hand
this clown(already worst enemy with bess)
and a very funny tech situation... Someone is doing our techs
Also - we poped a gs. What do we do with him.
Also, trade is open for eng. with sally for optics/philo. Didn't move any reinforcements yet, so we get the 3 moves if we make the trade(the main stack is already moving)
As you can see, J is 1 turn from edu. We all know he'll follow up with econ., but that's another story. He also gracefully bombed our grans. in moscow and novgorod. Also, open to trade to kubbie for all we have(compass/philo/drama); kubbie ain't a sport, and can't be bribed to attack either sally or bess for what we have.
J didn't build castles in either porto or guimaraes, so we should be able to throw him out(he built one in evora, for which we won't have ep, but we can let evora last though that'll mean tons of probs. in lisbon).
Don't mention lib. - our gnp is 130, top gnp is 740 even if liz doesn't have paper or anything
p.s. - yeah, we applied the rule when settling near fresh water was possible.
Dirk1302
Deity
Bad rolls but we we still look good. Lisbon will fall in a few turns i think and we have reinforcements coming for the rest. Don't think Joao can stop us once Lisbon's gone. We can fight unhappiness by rearranging trade with Izzy (she's got our only sugar, we can switch this deal to dye) and getting incense for dye from Sal. We need some chain irrigation into the jungle zone.
SnowlyWhite
Emperor
J will fall, np. I've scouted guimaraes, and his army is nice, but nonexistant(guess we just killed his SoD, if you can call that a sod). Relooking at it, I was cheap because I didn't road properly near coimbra(sent workers to road in what I knew would be neutral ground after coimbra raze, but stupidly didn't road that jungle tile) in his territory, so moved the stack on open ground instead of forest(if I'd move on the forest, it'd be 4 to lisbon, this way there were 3 - normally I keep 2 workers with stack, but don't know what was in my head).
The gs will bulb paper I think, which doesn't really help. Settling doesn't seem too sexy either, but meh, no clue. We could acad at cathy's(fish + clam, so will support a few scientists - but that's long term, and usually hate this long term, since we're all dead).
Chain irrigation is about to happen(I just preemptively cut everything south of rostov - he didn't have many troops, but we don't have any defenses either )
Also, looking more carefully, evora doesn't have castle. So prob. it'll be lisbon - evora - porto. Now, question is with guimaraes(I don't like it's position, but on the other hand... there are no good spots from what I saw with the variant). We keep guimaraes(the northern j city) or raze?
Lisbon will need an eternity to move the palace there.
we'll tank when we'll soak his 5 cities(6 if we keep guimaraes), so I'll have to start whipping chs. somehow too.
kubbie seems to be the major threat after the score(which ain't from techs, it's from cities - he has 14 if I counted right). The 7th is either a zealot or hc/brennus/boudica; anyway, scouting him early doesn't seem too appealing(obviously could just be anyone if he popped mysticism from a hut in 1st turn), but circ. bonus would be very handy in our situation. Obviously, that in case he's on the same conti with sally, or somehow knows sally or lizzy(we'll get the -4 from trading with one of them); if he's isolated, then, meh, we pay 40g and that's it.
anyway, I'd pull eng. trade, but don't know with whom. With kubbie we could get also mono I think(which would be one more step to theo - we could run empty religion with theo for bonus with izzy/sally if we prepare for diplo), but kubbie is big(and as safe as any warmonger, so 0 safety). Sally doesn't seem to be a major threat long term. Or we could wait on eng.
summing up(will play in probably ~8h the rest of my set or in ~32h):
- trade eng.? if yes, with whom? if yes, do we add mono(I'm against, so 1 vote for no);
- keep the gs? scratch the gs on his back? what? double up and bulb sci. meth.? I'd keep it to double for sci. meth, but it's not a strong option, so if anyone has a really strong opinion about him, feel free to discard my vote. I'd stay to 1 turn till completion of sci. meth. if we do it(obsoletes glib., and glib. atm. is a big chunk of our research).
The gs will bulb paper I think, which doesn't really help. Settling doesn't seem too sexy either, but meh, no clue. We could acad at cathy's(fish + clam, so will support a few scientists - but that's long term, and usually hate this long term, since we're all dead
).Chain irrigation is about to happen(I just preemptively cut everything south of rostov - he didn't have many troops, but we don't have any defenses either
)Also, looking more carefully, evora doesn't have castle. So prob. it'll be lisbon - evora - porto. Now, question is with guimaraes(I don't like it's position, but on the other hand... there are no good spots from what I saw with the variant). We keep guimaraes(the northern j city) or raze?
Lisbon will need an eternity to move the palace there.
we'll tank when we'll soak his 5 cities(6 if we keep guimaraes), so I'll have to start whipping chs. somehow too.
kubbie seems to be the major threat after the score(which ain't from techs, it's from cities - he has 14 if I counted right). The 7th is either a zealot or hc/brennus/boudica; anyway, scouting him early doesn't seem too appealing(obviously could just be anyone if he popped mysticism from a hut in 1st turn), but circ. bonus would be very handy in our situation. Obviously, that in case he's on the same conti with sally, or somehow knows sally or lizzy(we'll get the -4 from trading with one of them); if he's isolated, then, meh, we pay 40g and that's it.
anyway, I'd pull eng. trade, but don't know with whom. With kubbie we could get also mono I think(which would be one more step to theo - we could run empty religion with theo for bonus with izzy/sally if we prepare for diplo), but kubbie is big(and as safe as any warmonger, so 0 safety). Sally doesn't seem to be a major threat long term. Or we could wait on eng.
summing up(will play in probably ~8h the rest of my set or in ~32h):
- trade eng.? if yes, with whom? if yes, do we add mono(I'm against, so 1 vote for no);
- keep the gs? scratch the gs on his back? what? double up and bulb sci. meth.? I'd keep it to double for sci. meth, but it's not a strong option, so if anyone has a really strong opinion about him, feel free to discard my vote. I'd stay to 1 turn till completion of sci. meth. if we do it(obsoletes glib., and glib. atm. is a big chunk of our research).
Dirk1302
Deity
I'd leave the GS alone for the moment, bulbing paper is imo almost sheer waste atm. Maybe Lisbon doesn't have an academy yet, we'll know what to do in that case. Settling in Lisbon may be an option. Or bulb PP or something like that later for better beaker output.
I'd trade for eng, with Sal if possible, Sal is incapable of winning a civ game. Kublai is big.
No Mono, once we've got Lisbon it's 1 turn research probably.
I'd build a sail asap to go looking for that last civ.
I may have to look more carefully but i'd keep all the cities we conquer. maybe we'll tank economy but some of these cities are coastal and we can run representation specs under caste.
We can workshop some tiles near Lisbon to get palace up there. I think we'll be thriving around 1300 AD. We'll hit the next hurdle around 1500 AD, no factories/plants.If there are no renaissance victims around i think a beeline to ecology isn't so bad (enables forges/factories). We'll be able to backtrade techs along this route for sure.
I'd trade for eng, with Sal if possible, Sal is incapable of winning a civ game. Kublai is big.
No Mono, once we've got Lisbon it's 1 turn research probably.
I'd build a sail asap to go looking for that last civ.
I may have to look more carefully but i'd keep all the cities we conquer. maybe we'll tank economy but some of these cities are coastal and we can run representation specs under caste.
We can workshop some tiles near Lisbon to get palace up there. I think we'll be thriving around 1300 AD. We'll hit the next hurdle around 1500 AD, no factories/plants.If there are no renaissance victims around i think a beeline to ecology isn't so bad (enables forges/factories). We'll be able to backtrade techs along this route for sure.
SnowlyWhite
Emperor
ecology?!
those craps cost an arm and a leg if I remember right(needless to say, never built them... so might be wrong).
anyway, we'll need a gm for sushi and I don't know where to make it. We want caste, or slave? We'll have 3 slots for sci. anyway at astro. and caste means monarch - feud - guilds(which we all love as a line), eventually chemistry(which I don't know where we'll put). Astro should net us pp somehow if we get paper from... kubbie(ok, he doesn't have paper, but suppose he'll research and he still doesn't have philo... kinda dreaming, if not we can research it by hand)? With paper/pp we have clear road to bulb on sci. meth.
eco. is an issue because defenses with kubbie around(which is probably pleased with everyone due to bureau, and with ~15 cities the last thing we'll want is bureau).
ok, I really don't have ideas.
those craps cost an arm and a leg if I remember right(needless to say, never built them... so might be wrong).
anyway, we'll need a gm for sushi and I don't know where to make it. We want caste, or slave? We'll have 3 slots for sci. anyway at astro. and caste means monarch - feud - guilds(which we all love as a line), eventually chemistry(which I don't know where we'll put). Astro should net us pp somehow if we get paper from... kubbie(ok, he doesn't have paper, but suppose he'll research and he still doesn't have philo... kinda dreaming, if not we can research it by hand)?
With paper/pp we have clear road to bulb on sci. meth.eco. is an issue because defenses with kubbie around(which is probably pleased with everyone due to bureau, and with ~15 cities the last thing we'll want is bureau).
ok, I really don't have ideas.
Dirk1302
Deity
Recycle centers are expensive of course without fact/plants. But it should be doable, not every city needs one, and we can buy the most important ones. If we can't finish/cripple the rest in renaissance i feel we don't have too much choice. And there's nothing wrong with that research route, it is electricity->fission eco with medicine as prereq iirc. AL doesn't seem to interesting for us atm. Anyway it's far into the future.
Good chance we can bribe Kub against someone in the future, or he'll declare on someone with diff religion or Izz declares on him. I'm not too anxious about someone declaring on us, we'll have some units ourselves from the war and can build some more when the time's right.
We need to research monarchy somewhere to setup a trade for feud.
Good chance we can bribe Kub against someone in the future, or he'll declare on someone with diff religion or Izz declares on him. I'm not too anxious about someone declaring on us, we'll have some units ourselves from the war and can build some more when the time's right.
We need to research monarchy somewhere to setup a trade for feud.
Haven't look at the save yet. From the screen shot, some comments on the current play:
War:
1. IMO a little early, I would at least wait for a couple more of promoted HRs, which would be sufficient to prevent the attack from Xbow (the only unit joao dare to attack). The lost of two xbows is unnecessary.
2. not enough siege units, I tend to have 15+ in the beginning of war. I'd rather declare a few turns later and march SOD unstopping than declare early but stop and waiting for reinforcement.
Tech:
I would trade for Eng from someone who does not cause negative diplomatic modification for Liz and Isa. I would prefer paper next and bulb Edu for trade.
Religion:
I would convert to confu as early as I saw Isa converted. Early friendly trade partners are incredible important. Why do we care about other AIs? By giving them tech, we can easily bump them to please or at least cautious.
War:
1. IMO a little early, I would at least wait for a couple more of promoted HRs, which would be sufficient to prevent the attack from Xbow (the only unit joao dare to attack). The lost of two xbows is unnecessary.
2. not enough siege units, I tend to have 15+ in the beginning of war. I'd rather declare a few turns later and march SOD unstopping than declare early but stop and waiting for reinforcement.
Tech:
I would trade for Eng from someone who does not cause negative diplomatic modification for Liz and Isa. I would prefer paper next and bulb Edu for trade.
Religion:
I would convert to confu as early as I saw Isa converted. Early friendly trade partners are incredible important. Why do we care about other AIs? By giving them tech, we can easily bump them to please or at least cautious.
Dirk1302
Deity
War,
-1. But we can't get more than 2 promos on the HA's, maybe we should have built some more. As Snow said he was a bit unlucky and he chose to go through an open tile instead of a jungle tile to get to lisbon earlier.
-2. We had 10 cats to begin with, we don't need to bomb Lisbon though, we have enough ep to revolt the city. In my own games i tend to build a somewhat bigger army as well, then again the opponents in those game tend to be stronger than Joao is here, i still think he'll die quick after Lisbon. We need to keep on building units though.
I know Snow intended to go through Coimbra first, i might have gone to Lisbon immed, as it is however i'm happy with how it turned out, Lisbon will fall and the units in Coimbra could have been awkward for our own cities.
Tech,
Liz is not that important, she'll trade anyway. Meeting Kublai was a bummer, if he'd needed optics/astro to reach us he'd be far more backward, he'll catch up soon now. Kublai is not connected tradewise, probably he could reach us through his culture but we can't reach him. So we still need astro to get resource trade/routes and he has 16 gpt. Astro still looks good, we can trade it too since the others can reach us anyway. I think Liz'll go edu soon so i doubt if we can trade that as well. Also there's still that unknown civ out there.
Religion,
In hindsight i agree that we should have done that. I don't think that would have gotten Joao to annoyed (which would have been dangerous at the time). But as Ungy said, it's a bit late now and it'll cost a turn while we're building units.It'll take time to get Izz to friendly and it'll annoy Kublai and Sal who are buddhist. Still at the moment the war is really won but still going on (the moment anarchy hurts least) we need to think about religion. We could certainly use one of the religious civics and theocracy for instacne would still get Izz to friendly soon. Confu is also AP religion so we need to spread it and build religion buildings.
-1. But we can't get more than 2 promos on the HA's, maybe we should have built some more. As Snow said he was a bit unlucky and he chose to go through an open tile instead of a jungle tile to get to lisbon earlier.
-2. We had 10 cats to begin with, we don't need to bomb Lisbon though, we have enough ep to revolt the city. In my own games i tend to build a somewhat bigger army as well, then again the opponents in those game tend to be stronger than Joao is here, i still think he'll die quick after Lisbon. We need to keep on building units though.
I know Snow intended to go through Coimbra first, i might have gone to Lisbon immed, as it is however i'm happy with how it turned out, Lisbon will fall and the units in Coimbra could have been awkward for our own cities.
Tech,
Liz is not that important, she'll trade anyway. Meeting Kublai was a bummer, if he'd needed optics/astro to reach us he'd be far more backward, he'll catch up soon now. Kublai is not connected tradewise, probably he could reach us through his culture but we can't reach him. So we still need astro to get resource trade/routes and he has 16 gpt. Astro still looks good, we can trade it too since the others can reach us anyway. I think Liz'll go edu soon so i doubt if we can trade that as well. Also there's still that unknown civ out there.
Religion,
In hindsight i agree that we should have done that. I don't think that would have gotten Joao to annoyed (which would have been dangerous at the time). But as Ungy said, it's a bit late now and it'll cost a turn while we're building units.It'll take time to get Izz to friendly and it'll annoy Kublai and Sal who are buddhist. Still at the moment the war is really won but still going on (the moment anarchy hurts least) we need to think about religion. We could certainly use one of the religious civics and theocracy for instacne would still get Izz to friendly soon. Confu is also AP religion so we need to spread it and build religion buildings.
CII HA has higher winning odd against xbow, which tends to stop Joao's attacking courage. I emphasize promoted since I am not sure whether Snow promoted HA and xbow before entering Joao's land.
We would expect ~3 cats lost for each cities. With 10 cats, you have to stop after capturing 2 cites, while 15 cats allow you to take 4 cites nonstopping.
Agree on taking Lisbon next, the attacking route Snow chose cost an extra turn for movement.
I see the chance to win the lib race since only Joao has Paper at the moment. I still prefer to trade for Astro.
We would expect ~3 cats lost for each cities. With 10 cats, you have to stop after capturing 2 cites, while 15 cats allow you to take 4 cites nonstopping.
Agree on taking Lisbon next, the attacking route Snow chose cost an extra turn for movement.
I see the chance to win the lib race since only Joao has Paper at the moment. I still prefer to trade for Astro.
SnowlyWhite
Emperor
tell me... on the other hand, the horsies come from far north. Takes 4 turns from moscow. I wanted to wait for another 2, but troops started to be building up in coimbra(when I took the turn, were 2 axes and a... mace I think vs lbow/3 xbow/2 mace/2 pikes/something when I declared and were coming non stop - was seeing from the spies in lisbon). I agree that my attack plan was crap(beside lack of luck, I just screwed it, should've roaded the other tile in his territory - normally I'd reload if I'd play alone
), but more time for buildup I don't think it was justified/productive.Beside that, we have enough siege; 100% sure. Mind you, we'll have to turn back from guimaraes(splitting is hard) and from scouting his army is at... noble level(ok, I don't know how ai fares at noble - basically the 2-3 token defenders per city). And anyway, we were out of prod. capacity tbh. We whipped those cities to stone age already... plus, each turn with glh it's a turn gained.
Took coimbra 1st as that's where the troops were and, without stopping to heal, basically add only 1 turn to the invasion(kill the stack in there, 4 turns to lisbon we'll do anyway as I've roaded in his territory especially so we don't lose transport turns.
I'd also prefered confu asap, but majority was against(not even 100% sure I'm right in this - we won't get izzy to friendly too soon anyway and couldn't convert as long as J was tao and we had 4 chariots/2 warriors at 6 cities).
kubbie was contacted by the wboat I've left at the most W tile I could reach in bess' western island probably by a scout... no clue, had no visibility on the shore myself and he doesn't have optics(maybe a hill? shrug).
Atm., only worst enemy is kubbie to bess; probably would be kubbie to izzy too if they meet. Sally is cautious with everyone. On the other hand, sally will trade with kubbie so those techs will end up at kubbie anyway(both friendly, or at least he's friendly with kubbie). The mysterious 7 is... well, mysterious 7; in theory should be pissed at either sally or bess due to being the founders, but with the peace weights, could as well be pissed at kubbie too. That if he knows anyone; otherwise, he'll be pissed at bess if they met already(only one with optics) case in which we already have the -4 and can't do crap about it.
p.s - ha and 1 xbow was promoted. C2 and respectively c1. Reinforcements will use the road network after we take lisbon so we'll add another 2 catas - 12 catas should be ok while losing 1 axe or so/city.
passing coimbra - we can't defend(we can't even flank). Would've mean leaving at least 4 xbows in rostov and even that would've been low if he brought more then 2 trebs.
p.p.s. - 1 turn from edu. means gunpowder open. We couldn't wait more.
I think you're right--that makes more sense to play that way anyway.
tell me... on the other hand, the horsies come from far north. Takes 4 turns from moscow. I wanted to wait for another 2, but troops started to be building up in coimbra(when I took the turn, were 2 axes and a... mace I think vs lbow/3 xbow/2 mace/2 pikes/something when I declared and were coming non stop - was seeing from the spies in lisbon). I agree that my attack plan was crap(beside lack of luck, I just screwed it, should've roaded the other tile in his territory - normally I'd reload if I'd play alone
Beside that, we have enough siege; 100% sure. Mind you, we'll have to turn back from guimaraes(splitting is hard) and from scouting his army is at... noble level(ok, I don't know how ai fares at noble - basically the 2-3 token defenders per city). And anyway, we were out of prod. capacity tbh. We whipped those cities to stone age already... plus, each turn with glh it's a turn gained.
It's a matter of build management. If you had the plan to have 2~3 HAs in your SOD, you could get it in time. However, as I mentioned, you could postpone the war with more cats. I mentioned the difference between 10 and 15 cats. It does not matter that Joao will have a few more units, they are just more GGPs with enough cats. I was not saying that you would have difficulty to win the war at current situation. I tried to suggest a way to win the war IMO more efficiently.
I agree on taking coimbra 1st, however, I would park the SOD 1E and this would give you better defense.
SnowlyWhite
Emperor
t 160 continue
ok bum, it's your lucky day; you can help me win one more time.
2 turns to lisbon, defended by mace/2 swords atm.
switch from gran to cata in novgorod.
switch from xbow to ch in yaroslav(basically the overflow, whip another xbow for overflow, bla bla)
I do a 1 turn priesthood at 0% research(we'll need priesthood/monarchy self researched anyway, might as well do it now till we figure out how it flows and what we want to do - I don't love astro line too much but I don't have any bright ideas either)
dye to sally for wine
cancel sugar to izzy, sell her dye and up from 8gpt to 10.
bess' clam is canceled in order to get 2 more gpt, then she has 0 gpt for trade... gah, I hate this...
t 161
J sends a cowboy cata to attack novgorod... ok, we might defend with a warrior, sure, but can't take cities anymore. I swear he probably played warlords undercover. Oh well, dispatch it with a ha who was on the way to the front.
whip cata in novgorod, overflow in ch.
whip cata in cathy's, overflow in ch.
budhism spreads... oh man... the joy...
yay, J researches lib. in 14. Phew, no gunpowder(though he might take it from lib.)
now I see how kubbie contacted us - via his wb in sally's waters.
I up the slider for a 2 turns monarchy.
mace, xbow, 2 swords, 2 catas in lisbon.
t 162
bess goes FR, kubbie open for trade. Kubbie has paper for trade.
whip cata in rostov
do a 3 pop. whip in yakutsk for a treb., overflow in ch, will do the same with a cata almost done next turn.
t 163
we lose: 1 spy, 3 catas, 2 axes. But we end up with a full set of buildings, including academy, scotland yard, forge, harbor, ch.
we get a gg in moscow who goes with the ha as healer. J gets a gg in guimaraes! As bad as it could get - we'll have many g2 defenders, so I'd vote for leaving guimaraes last.
to my dismay I didn't whip anything this turn. I promise to come back in force next one.
I do a 1/6th feud hoping for a paper/feud with kubbie
t 164
as promised, I'm back with a vengeance
2 pop whip harbor in moscow - working crappy water tiles vs 4 intercont. routes under bureau - not a hard choice.
gran in novgorod into ch(J bombed it...)
cata in yakutsk into ch
wb in bess is sent on auto explore now that we have 1 more los with optics
ep set on kubbie. we won't get another shot at revolt anyway so let's pretend we care about ep with our 4 messy ep/turn
t 165
uos, sistine built; hopefully paper will be open next turn(we're atm. on astro at break even).
caravel whipped at cathy's into ch. let's search for those mysterious, hopefully backwards, future victims
trash 2 lbows nw of lisbon in the open with 2 has.
finally bess is willing to part with 8gpt for our clam.
t 166
don't know if it was a good move. We'll see. At least he ain't worst enemy of anyone atm.
izzy built taj and is in ga.
xbow whip in yaroslav
ch whip in yakutsk
gran done in moscow; start on confu monastery(would net us 6 bpt even at 0 slider, plus 2 hammers).
t 167
bomb defenses at evora with healthy cats. Everyone else heals with our new shinny gg.
t 168
evora - 2 catas lost. Harbor/gran/lighthouse. Our shinny new treb. survives.
whip on last turn xbow at rostov into ch.
t 169
nada. Converging on porto.
t 170
com'on, couldn't we get something useful?
whip confu mona in yaroslav
xbow whip in cathy's
izzy has edu. bleah. So I up her dye from 10 to 12. So she'll probably end up with the gm from econ. since J can't pick econ. - he doesn't have guilds.
t 171
I try to upsell the stone to sally. From 7, we end up with 5... apparently stone is bearish...
ch whipped in rostov. Let it be, we wasted enough turns not working the dyes.
bomb d. at porto.
t 172
bess also has edu. Guess that seals on astro - we have a pretty decent bank.
porto has a g2 lbow which kinda screws my calculations. Oh well, let's try. Luckly it is over a promotionless pike, so I use a f2 ha as can opener. It withdraws, no prob., but doesn't scratch either; I'm stubborn, so use a 2nd f2. Guess what, the rng is stubborn too - still doesn't scratch
2 catas are luckier - they scratch and die
Grand total - 3 axes, 3 catas, 1 xbow for a harbor/forge/lh/granary. The catch is that he settled the gg here, so no more g2 lbows. Still, crappy rolls.
Did anyone say we'll be low on siege? Guess what, almost right Thankfully, only almost - reinforcements should hold us ok
tech
Summing up:
- we're in 2 turns distance to 1 ne of lagos, or alternatively we can take guimaraes and finish the north;
- we might need 1 turn break to allow abit of healing. Maybe promote a cr3 axe(should be some cr 3 there I think)
- if we go guimaraes, there's a treb. from moscow, add it to the stack;
- another ha is en route to stack, can be used a f2 can opener(don't laugh, usually it scratches, I swear!!!
)
- there's a decent amount of cash in the bank;
- get the cows to lisbon from evora and use it to build something(the lib. is set there just for kicks - probably palace, though library wouldn't hurt either).
- caravel should go east - no clue if we'll meet the last guy, but we at least have a decent shot at circ. bonus. Didn't sell the map yet to anyone
- the gs chews bubble gum in moscow. Could bulb pp, but then we'd be the only ones not benefiting from pp, contrary to the guys we'd trade to I woke him up just in case, so you remember.
- izzy is probably out as I guess everyone hit her wfybta so she'll have to self research everything.
- the wb set on autoexplore sees a galleon at bess; be careful, we don't want to share our turf
- there are 2 workers who just roaded the forest sw of porto(where our army is atm.) back around rostov; give them tasks.
- I really think lagos razed and resettled 1n would make sense - we get 4 more land tiles.
ok bum, it's your lucky day; you can help me win one more time.
2 turns to lisbon, defended by mace/2 swords atm.
switch from gran to cata in novgorod.
switch from xbow to ch in yaroslav(basically the overflow, whip another xbow for overflow, bla bla)
I do a 1 turn priesthood at 0% research(we'll need priesthood/monarchy self researched anyway, might as well do it now till we figure out how it flows and what we want to do - I don't love astro line too much but I don't have any bright ideas either)
dye to sally for wine
cancel sugar to izzy, sell her dye and up from 8gpt to 10.
bess' clam is canceled in order to get 2 more gpt, then she has 0 gpt for trade... gah, I hate this...
t 161
J sends a cowboy cata to attack novgorod... ok, we might defend with a warrior, sure, but can't take cities anymore. I swear he probably played warlords undercover. Oh well, dispatch it with a ha who was on the way to the front.
whip cata in novgorod, overflow in ch.
whip cata in cathy's, overflow in ch.
budhism spreads... oh man... the joy...
yay, J researches lib. in 14. Phew, no gunpowder(though he might take it from lib.)
now I see how kubbie contacted us - via his wb in sally's waters.
I up the slider for a 2 turns monarchy.
mace, xbow, 2 swords, 2 catas in lisbon.
t 162
bess goes FR, kubbie open for trade. Kubbie has paper for trade.
whip cata in rostov
do a 3 pop. whip in yakutsk for a treb., overflow in ch, will do the same with a cata almost done next turn.
t 163
we lose: 1 spy, 3 catas, 2 axes. But we end up with a full set of buildings, including academy, scotland yard, forge, harbor, ch.
we get a gg in moscow who goes with the ha as healer. J gets a gg in guimaraes! As bad as it could get - we'll have many g2 defenders, so I'd vote for leaving guimaraes last.
to my dismay I didn't whip anything this turn. I promise to come back in force next one.
I do a 1/6th feud hoping for a paper/feud with kubbie
t 164
as promised, I'm back with a vengeance
2 pop whip harbor in moscow - working crappy water tiles vs 4 intercont. routes under bureau - not a hard choice.
gran in novgorod into ch(J bombed it...)
cata in yakutsk into ch
wb in bess is sent on auto explore now that we have 1 more los with optics
ep set on kubbie. we won't get another shot at revolt anyway so let's pretend we care about ep with our 4 messy ep/turn
t 165
uos, sistine built; hopefully paper will be open next turn(we're atm. on astro at break even).
caravel whipped at cathy's into ch. let's search for those mysterious, hopefully backwards, future victims
trash 2 lbows nw of lisbon in the open with 2 has.
finally bess is willing to part with 8gpt for our clam.
t 166
don't know if it was a good move. We'll see. At least he ain't worst enemy of anyone atm.
izzy built taj and is in ga.
xbow whip in yaroslav
ch whip in yakutsk
gran done in moscow; start on confu monastery(would net us 6 bpt even at 0 slider, plus 2 hammers).
t 167
bomb defenses at evora with healthy cats. Everyone else heals with our new shinny gg.
t 168
evora - 2 catas lost. Harbor/gran/lighthouse. Our shinny new treb. survives.
whip on last turn xbow at rostov into ch.
t 169
nada. Converging on porto.
t 170
com'on, couldn't we get something useful?
whip confu mona in yaroslav
xbow whip in cathy's
izzy has edu. bleah. So I up her dye from 10 to 12. So she'll probably end up with the gm from econ. since J can't pick econ. - he doesn't have guilds.
t 171
I try to upsell the stone to sally. From 7, we end up with 5... apparently stone is bearish...
ch whipped in rostov. Let it be, we wasted enough turns not working the dyes.
bomb d. at porto.
t 172
bess also has edu. Guess that seals on astro - we have a pretty decent bank.
porto has a g2 lbow which kinda screws my calculations. Oh well, let's try. Luckly it is over a promotionless pike, so I use a f2 ha as can opener. It withdraws, no prob., but doesn't scratch either; I'm stubborn, so use a 2nd f2. Guess what, the rng is stubborn too - still doesn't scratch
2 catas are luckier - they scratch and die Grand total - 3 axes, 3 catas, 1 xbow for a harbor/forge/lh/granary. The catch is that he settled the gg here, so no more g2 lbows. Still, crappy rolls.
Did anyone say we'll be low on siege?
Guess what, almost right Thankfully, only almost - reinforcements should hold us ok
tech
Summing up:
- we're in 2 turns distance to 1 ne of lagos, or alternatively we can take guimaraes and finish the north;
- we might need 1 turn break to allow abit of healing. Maybe promote a cr3 axe(should be some cr 3 there I think)
- if we go guimaraes, there's a treb. from moscow, add it to the stack;
- another ha is en route to stack, can be used a f2 can opener(don't laugh, usually it scratches, I swear!!!
)- there's a decent amount of cash in the bank;
- get the cows to lisbon from evora and use it to build something(the lib. is set there just for kicks - probably palace, though library wouldn't hurt either).
- caravel should go east - no clue if we'll meet the last guy, but we at least have a decent shot at circ. bonus. Didn't sell the map yet to anyone
- the gs chews bubble gum in moscow. Could bulb pp, but then we'd be the only ones not benefiting from pp, contrary to the guys we'd trade to
I woke him up just in case, so you remember.- izzy is probably out as I guess everyone hit her wfybta so she'll have to self research everything.
- the wb set on autoexplore sees a galleon at bess; be careful, we don't want to share our turf
- there are 2 workers who just roaded the forest sw of porto(where our army is atm.) back around rostov; give them tasks.
- I really think lagos razed and resettled 1n would make sense - we get 4 more land tiles.
OK--I got it.
My thoughts: hustle to astro. I'm not as optimistic about trading for it. We'll only have edu to trade, and most of the rest have it now. That extra trading will help a lot.
Should we take conf?
Duckweed may very well have been right that we should have done so when we were safe from Joao's attack. We now have Sal and KK pleased--we can keep trading with them if we go conf. We might get some benefit from civics if we spread it around.
I'm a bit up in the air--so help would be good.
I"m inclined to skip the newly started trebs--Joao has 3 cities and by the time they're ready we'll have Gumaires and the others don't have walls.
So plan is to finish Joao off and start gold plating the cities a bit.
The GS--what to do? I'm also unclear here. I'm not wild about trading astro to distant AI--but we may have a chance to trade with Iz. I'm inclined to save for bulbing PP (or edu if we can't trade for it) but again could use help.
Also should we move the palace to Lisbon?
My thoughts: hustle to astro. I'm not as optimistic about trading for it. We'll only have edu to trade, and most of the rest have it now. That extra trading will help a lot.
Should we take conf?
Duckweed may very well have been right that we should have done so when we were safe from Joao's attack. We now have Sal and KK pleased--we can keep trading with them if we go conf. We might get some benefit from civics if we spread it around.
I'm a bit up in the air--so help would be good.
I"m inclined to skip the newly started trebs--Joao has 3 cities and by the time they're ready we'll have Gumaires and the others don't have walls.
So plan is to finish Joao off and start gold plating the cities a bit.
The GS--what to do? I'm also unclear here. I'm not wild about trading astro to distant AI--but we may have a chance to trade with Iz. I'm inclined to save for bulbing PP (or edu if we can't trade for it) but again could use help.
Also should we move the palace to Lisbon?
I'd be inclined to keep at this stage. We'll get a size 4 city as opposed to a resettle to pick up 3 grass tiles (the hill is in Lisbon's BFC).
We don't have much to worry about Liz settling our lands--if we keep Joao's cities there is only one valid spot on the incense to settle and I think we can block that soon enough.
SnowlyWhite
Emperor
the trebs. are for case we go south then back to guimaraes. This way, they'll be front line. Otherwise, they don't make sense. Then one in moscow should be able to join in time after we take guimaraes.
the southern ones in yakutsk makes sense no matter what. We have enough to bombard, but we have axes vs. lbows on hills. So... And I wouldn't like promoting axes to maces - those were dispensable troops which had one task, to kick J out and we're short on cash.
I'm also for astro now; alt. would be bulb pp, trade for edu/guilds; only con. is that by this we really boost the ai and that they might go for it with a reasonable prio. Pro. is we'd keep astro for ourselves and that we'd net edu/guilds much faster this way - guilds is needed if we go caste. Also, it'd clear the path to bulb sci. meth.
Unfortunately probably J will lose lib. given how bad we beat him. However, if he wins, probably he'll take gpowder or astro, both unpleasant scenarios. Only bonus is that then astro would open with bess if we go pp.
We don't have any chance to trade with izzy till friendly; we've passed her 5 eons ago and in order for wfyabta to be avoided, izzy would have to drop below both sally and bess in score(totally unlikely sally will surpass her). We can count on us being dead last in score for a while There's also a 5% chance that she'll forget a tech trade per turn, but I don't know if it simply goes from n to n-1 or from n to 4 in her case(I really don't like reading exactly what the ai does, so this is what I remember from a thread).
I'd try to move the palace, but certainly won't be fast.
P.S. - eventually give something to kubbie. 60g or so should be enough to bump him to pleased. I don't know what's everyone's opinion on this(I give them 40g no matter what when we meet, but, not knowing what you guys think, I didn't toss in drama for that bonus - some say it's cheap, I'm ok with it). So the fading of the +4 for fair trade is offset by the increase with fav. civic. We're atm. at cautious.
the southern ones in yakutsk makes sense no matter what. We have enough to bombard, but we have axes vs. lbows on hills. So... And I wouldn't like promoting axes to maces - those were dispensable troops which had one task, to kick J out and we're short on cash.
I'm also for astro now; alt. would be bulb pp, trade for edu/guilds; only con. is that by this we really boost the ai and that they might go for it with a reasonable prio. Pro. is we'd keep astro for ourselves and that we'd net edu/guilds much faster this way - guilds is needed if we go caste. Also, it'd clear the path to bulb sci. meth.
Unfortunately probably J will lose lib. given how bad we beat him. However, if he wins, probably he'll take gpowder or astro, both unpleasant scenarios. Only bonus is that then astro would open with bess if we go pp.
We don't have any chance to trade with izzy till friendly; we've passed her 5 eons ago and in order for wfyabta to be avoided, izzy would have to drop below both sally and bess in score(totally unlikely sally will surpass her). We can count on us being dead last in score for a while
There's also a 5% chance that she'll forget a tech trade per turn, but I don't know if it simply goes from n to n-1 or from n to 4 in her case(I really don't like reading exactly what the ai does, so this is what I remember from a thread).I'd try to move the palace, but certainly won't be fast.
P.S. - eventually give something to kubbie. 60g or so should be enough to bump him to pleased. I don't know what's everyone's opinion on this(I give them 40g no matter what when we meet, but, not knowing what you guys think, I didn't toss in drama for that bonus - some say it's cheap, I'm ok with it). So the fading of the +4 for fair trade is offset by the increase with fav. civic. We're atm. at cautious.
Dirk1302
Deity
Some thoughts after looking at the save,
- I've said a few times that we were doing well, i feel we're downright winning now, only Kublai is more or less of a dark horse, he's apparently very big.
- I think we should keep Lagos, due to culture there's a band on the island with tiles that neither we nor Joao could work. These spots just have to be resettled, for instance:
Every tile is worked and nothing has to be razed, brings us to 16 cities, all having 3 or 4 traderoutes( after corporation).
- I wouldn't bulb anything, just use the scientists for academies. Bulbing PP and trading it helps the ais. Our long term research prospects are good and we're not much behind anyway.I think we'll just surpass most other ais in research, especially with academies. Oporto,Novgorod,Rostov could use academies.
- Once the next scientist is in i'd set Moscow to max growth, working all tiles there helps.
- Lisbon doesn't need the palace soon, the move could become interesting after demo when we can transform to cottages there. We should have palace there once we're ~10 turns after emancipation/cottage transformation. Maybe we're in FS then in which case the move is not needed at all. Library in Lisbon makes sense atm.
-I'd finish the trebs on queue, we'll have enough attack power then and should switch to courthouses etc.... I'd take on Guimares first btw, the other cities are rather new, don't think Joao can do much there. Also we have only one front to defend after Guimares (Not that i expect Joao can do anything in the first case now).
- I've said a few times that we were doing well, i feel we're downright winning now, only Kublai is more or less of a dark horse, he's apparently very big.
- I think we should keep Lagos, due to culture there's a band on the island with tiles that neither we nor Joao could work. These spots just have to be resettled, for instance:
Every tile is worked and nothing has to be razed, brings us to 16 cities, all having 3 or 4 traderoutes( after corporation).
- I wouldn't bulb anything, just use the scientists for academies. Bulbing PP and trading it helps the ais. Our long term research prospects are good and we're not much behind anyway.I think we'll just surpass most other ais in research, especially with academies. Oporto,Novgorod,Rostov could use academies.
- Once the next scientist is in i'd set Moscow to max growth, working all tiles there helps.
- Lisbon doesn't need the palace soon, the move could become interesting after demo when we can transform to cottages there. We should have palace there once we're ~10 turns after emancipation/cottage transformation. Maybe we're in FS then in which case the move is not needed at all. Library in Lisbon makes sense atm.
-I'd finish the trebs on queue, we'll have enough attack power then and should switch to courthouses etc.... I'd take on Guimares first btw, the other cities are rather new, don't think Joao can do much there. Also we have only one front to defend after Guimares (Not that i expect Joao can do anything in the first case now).
SnowlyWhite
Emperor
if we go CE(I'm a fan of CE, so...) then I'd acad. too. In this case, I'd astro - nat - mt - demo(trade for nat/mt., depends, obviously). Backfill with either nat. or mt(preferably mt - afterall, backfilling with dead end techs is priceless )
Mt. since with cuirasssiers'/cavs' flanking, basically any invasion can be repelled in 3 turns(I'm a fan of space in such scenarios and I'm a fan of 10-15 mounted stack defence which usually flanks all the siege and let's the ai suicide into 2-3 token defenders - even rifles/grens beat infantry with 60% defense/cg promos). By the time they get arty we should be already ahead. This way factories/forges become irrelevant, we can beeline eco and then rush buy our factories/forges. Only downside is we won't smell kremlin with bess' current research, but imho it's strong enough even without kremlin plus, really, how hard can it be to beat bess if we want kremlin...
16 cities with 4 free cottages each(4 oversea trade routes, most with customs) is more then enough to space at any level, even with our 10-15 unworkable tiles due to forests(and after all, lumbers ain't totally horrid, plus for once I'll see a decent nat. park )
regarding front lines - frankly, beside half heart "counter" of a mace(which actually never crossed the border - was just chasing a worker probably with counter script - but wanted to be very orthodox) and a catapult, J never sent anything(ok, and suiciding another 2 catas). That's why I went so light at decl. - he didn't have an army. The other field skirmish was with his lbows sent from north to defend in south so order in which we take is largely irrelevant... The spy scouting N was unfortunately caught, but guimaraes didn't have anything worth mentioning either.
lastly, we'll have to check some turns after kubbie meets izzy(here we'll definitely eat -4, unless izzy meet the mysterious 7 who's an extreme pacifist like ghandi, case in which she'd probably pick him over kubbie); eventually lube izzy abit or go confu...
I swear I won't type anything else in the next hour
)Mt. since with cuirasssiers'/cavs' flanking, basically any invasion can be repelled in 3 turns(I'm a fan of space in such scenarios and I'm a fan of 10-15 mounted stack defence which usually flanks all the siege and let's the ai suicide into 2-3 token defenders - even rifles/grens beat infantry with 60% defense/cg promos). By the time they get arty we should be already ahead. This way factories/forges become irrelevant, we can beeline eco and then rush buy our factories/forges. Only downside is we won't smell kremlin with bess' current research, but imho it's strong enough even without kremlin plus, really, how hard can it be to beat bess if we want kremlin...
16 cities with 4 free cottages each(4 oversea trade routes, most with customs) is more then enough to space at any level, even with our 10-15 unworkable tiles due to forests(and after all, lumbers ain't totally horrid, plus for once I'll see a decent nat. park
)regarding front lines - frankly, beside half heart "counter" of a mace(which actually never crossed the border - was just chasing a worker probably with counter script - but wanted to be very orthodox) and a catapult, J never sent anything(ok, and suiciding another 2 catas). That's why I went so light at decl. - he didn't have an army. The other field skirmish was with his lbows sent from north to defend in south so order in which we take is largely irrelevant... The spy scouting N was unfortunately caught, but guimaraes didn't have anything worth mentioning either.
lastly, we'll have to check some turns after kubbie meets izzy(here we'll definitely eat -4, unless izzy meet the mysterious 7 who's an extreme pacifist like ghandi, case in which she'd probably pick him over kubbie); eventually lube izzy abit or go confu...
I swear I won't type anything else in the next hour
