Dirk1302
Deity
I don't think our people are allowed to smoke either 
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UNGY6 The health nuts
- Thread starter ungy
- Start date
If Joao is willing to give Edu for peace, I would strongly suggest to let him alive. He will captulate to someone and makes his master's solo tech tradable immediately. Did not notice of -5 relation as I thought that would be -3. Still would be easy to bump him to cautious by liberate one city or just give him Astro, anyway he can get it from his master.
I am a little busy in these two days. Could you continue or ask Rusten to play first? I think I might be able to play on Thursday night.
I am a little busy in these two days. Could you continue or ask Rusten to play first? I think I might be able to play on Thursday night.
Seems I haven't posted in a while. A belated welcome to Duckweed! 
I haven't paid as much attention lately as I usually do so I might repeat things others have said. Will get back into it now. Some initial thoughts:
Extorting edu from Joao sounds good. It would be nice to trade for PP as they give that away with monopoly, but unfortunately we lack the bait. I'd go for the scientific method line for trading. We haven't popped that many GPs so I suggest revolting to caste+pacifism with confu once Joao is gone and delete some units for less costs. If we extort education, lightbulb PP once, and lightbulb scientific method twice we should be in time to broker a fair bit. Once we're there we can get 2-3 GSs and head for physics and broker some more. We might even win the GS, but I wouldn't count on it.
After physics biology+medicine (sushi) and a diplomatic victory is possible. We could also skip biology and go for hammers with workshops or even both--it's a little early to tell what works out best. At any rate, I think scientific method is the way to go--we're guaranteed some trading if we lightbulb a lot. We might not win the physics race, but we'll be there soon enough to trade a lot with it.
Why do we not have lighthouses in our seafood cities!?
Also, lend some of Lisbons's tiles to the nearby cities. Lisbon has more good tiles than it can work while the others are on coast.
p.s. Thursday night isn't that long to wait. I'd be fine with waiting until saturday as well--we're not in a rush.
I haven't paid as much attention lately as I usually do so I might repeat things others have said. Will get back into it now. Some initial thoughts:
Extorting edu from Joao sounds good. It would be nice to trade for PP as they give that away with monopoly, but unfortunately we lack the bait. I'd go for the scientific method line for trading. We haven't popped that many GPs so I suggest revolting to caste+pacifism with confu once Joao is gone and delete some units for less costs. If we extort education, lightbulb PP once, and lightbulb scientific method twice we should be in time to broker a fair bit. Once we're there we can get 2-3 GSs and head for physics and broker some more. We might even win the GS, but I wouldn't count on it.
After physics biology+medicine (sushi) and a diplomatic victory is possible. We could also skip biology and go for hammers with workshops or even both--it's a little early to tell what works out best. At any rate, I think scientific method is the way to go--we're guaranteed some trading if we lightbulb a lot. We might not win the physics race, but we'll be there soon enough to trade a lot with it.
Why do we not have lighthouses in our seafood cities!?
Also, lend some of Lisbons's tiles to the nearby cities. Lisbon has more good tiles than it can work while the others are on coast.
p.s. Thursday night isn't that long to wait. I'd be fine with waiting until saturday as well--we're not in a rush.
Dirk1302
Deity
I don't think we'll get edu for peace, it's not on now btw. At least in my games the ais are not very generous giving up techs for peace.
Confu/pacifism sounds good to me. I wouldn't use the GS's for lightbulbing beyond SM unless this indeed leads to a diplo win. A lightbulb is a temporary thing and should serve some specific goal, if we don't get research up we can broker with physics but then we'll fall behind subsequently.
It's immortal i still think we can surpass the other ais by normal means eventually.
I don't understand the hammer plan too well, we have no multipliers for them so commerce or food/specialists seem to be better?
Confu/pacifism sounds good to me. I wouldn't use the GS's for lightbulbing beyond SM unless this indeed leads to a diplo win. A lightbulb is a temporary thing and should serve some specific goal, if we don't get research up we can broker with physics but then we'll fall behind subsequently.
It's immortal i still think we can surpass the other ais by normal means eventually.
I don't understand the hammer plan too well, we have no multipliers for them so commerce or food/specialists seem to be better?
SnowlyWhite
Emperor
edu is big, and I'm afraid our war success didn't impress even poor J; nor our current power 
probably we'll have to research at least half in order for him to part with it.
probably we'll have to research at least half in order for him to part with it.
Dirk1302
Deity
Also Edu is as good as worthless atm, it has no trade value whatsoever, we're not really ready to build universities (need courthouses/libraries/religious buildings first) let alone oxford which wouldn't do us much good anyway atm.I think researching PP, then see how good a SM bulb would be is best.
I don't know how vassalization rules work exactly, most likely Joao vassalizes to Izz if he wants to vassalize, she's also most dangerous being close to us( vassalization means declaration on us). So we may need to convert to Confu now to diminish(eliminate?) this risk. Not afraid he'll vassalize to anybody else, we get to talk to that civ before there's any danger and there won't be any diplomatical consequences.
I don't know how vassalization rules work exactly, most likely Joao vassalizes to Izz if he wants to vassalize, she's also most dangerous being close to us( vassalization means declaration on us). So we may need to convert to Confu now to diminish(eliminate?) this risk. Not afraid he'll vassalize to anybody else, we get to talk to that civ before there's any danger and there won't be any diplomatical consequences.
If we want to leave Joao, I'd think we need to burn a GP on edu then take the back half. We really don't want to stay at war too long. We're also at -5, and he's catholic. So that's another complication. His last city (or last 2 if we're going to need to give one back) are not essential for us--we lose on them in the short run and win eventually.
The main benefit as I see it is that when we get a tradable tech we can effectively double dip by trading both with him and his master--is this worth the complications? Hard to say--I don't have a strong opinion but I'd probably lean to wiping him out.
The main benefit as I see it is that when we get a tradable tech we can effectively double dip by trading both with him and his master--is this worth the complications? Hard to say--I don't have a strong opinion but I'd probably lean to wiping him out.
I forgot that scientific method is above education in the lightbulbing queue. With that in mind I agree with teching printing press manually and lightbulbing scientific method afterwards (should be easy to pick up edu). I don't agree that religious buildings come before 100 hammer universities though. In most cities they should be before courthouses as well. Getting Oxford's University up takes time, so the sooner we get edu the better, but not worth researching ourselves yes.
PP may give us guilds/banking/gunpowder while scientific method can pull in the big ones (nationalism, education, chemistry and such).
Wipe out Joao.
PP may give us guilds/banking/gunpowder while scientific method can pull in the big ones (nationalism, education, chemistry and such).
Wipe out Joao.
Dirk1302
Deity
The religious buildings would net 2 hammers/piece which really help with universities. Well we're going to bulb SM so no monasteries diminishing the value of all this. Universities are half priced so indeed Edu would come in handy for this. We have stone so it can't be too difficult to get oxford up subsequently. Lisbon is the obvious candidate for it, still we might take a look at Oporto, more cottages there, but longer build time. Lisbon's better, too much ocean near Oporto.
SnowlyWhite
Emperor
monasteries with our current path are already worthless; we need a tao and a christian one in some 2nd hand city case we go fr, and that's it. ROI is crap if we'll obsolete them in 2 techs. With stone and ap reli I drop even lib. for DR to get UoS/SM and I'm a fan of RE, but here, they'd barely pay for their cost and we don't really want culture.
my set was probably the last when monas were still worthy. If we go demo, then yes, they might be worth, but if we go SM... Even then, we can't build forges to up the hammers from 4 to 5 in cities which work no hammer tiles.
if we're to vote, I'd kill J, but, as ungy, without a very strong opinion on this.
my set was probably the last when monas were still worthy. If we go demo, then yes, they might be worth, but if we go SM... Even then, we can't build forges to up the hammers from 4 to 5 in cities which work no hammer tiles.
if we're to vote, I'd kill J, but, as ungy, without a very strong opinion on this.
Good to know that scientific method is above education in the lightbulbing queue.
I also totally agree on the importance of Edu in this game, with the Phi trait and stone, the time required to getting Oxford up is tremendously shortened. Therefore I still tend to trade for Edu from Joao. So my plan would be:
Gift paper to Brenus and trade for Guild.
Gift Guild to Joao to bump him to cautious and trade for Edu.
By looking at the relation of Joao to others, Joao has not captulated to anyone until now, which means he would probably do not captulate to anyone in short time, so we can still wipe him out immediately after we get the Edu trade.
Also notice that Iliz adopted free religion, which makes converting to Confu less optimal, I incline to convert to Budism.
It's likely that Joao has not vassaled to anyone yet because they don't want to declare war on us. I think the AI are much more likely to accept a vassal at peace.
I'd be surprised if Joao doesn't vassal to someone. We'll also take a couple of - hits for a redeclare if he doesn't.
I'd be leery of taking Buddhism. Iz is the most dangerous AI due to location.
If we gift paper to Brennus, we'll take an immediate -4 I think from Sal.
He should still trade with us but are you sure that'll bump Brennus enough to trade?
I considered doing that when we met him but I didn't want to risk Sal.
This trade for edu plan might work, but seems like a lot of moving parts and only one has to go wrong to fail. Still, if Joao lives on as a vassal, and we can get a tech to trade, there's a good chance we can double dip.
Dirk1302
Deity
I thought we'd take up confu last set, i was rather indifferent about taking it up. As it is now i wouldn't adopt any religion, costs a turn and doesn't do so much.
I'd gift Brennus Paper and maybe some more to get him to trade, he's rather backward so we may trade some more with him in the future. Indeed we can get guilds then.
If we keep Joao alive let's at least take Lagos, it's an ok production site . Braga is pretty bad, will still be profitable in the long run but Ungy's double dip idea might indeed net us some techs.
I think Joao might vassal to Kublai once we're at peace.
I'd gift Brennus Paper and maybe some more to get him to trade, he's rather backward so we may trade some more with him in the future. Indeed we can get guilds then.
If we keep Joao alive let's at least take Lagos, it's an ok production site . Braga is pretty bad, will still be profitable in the long run but Ungy's double dip idea might indeed net us some techs.
I think Joao might vassal to Kublai once we're at peace.
I agree on not converting atm. Actually I think about using a GS to start a golden age when our cities grow to a certain size and do the civ change and conversion at that time. We need the religious civic to speedup the GP production and infrastructure buildup.
I would not worry about DOW at this stage, intercontinental war is easy to handle. My interest is to get someone to friendly as soon as possible and KK is a better choice. Izz is no use before we can bump her to friendly and her teching speed will slow down without the help from Ilizabeth.
I need the vote for whether to wipe Joao after we get the Edu trade, we can redeclare immediately after the Edu trade, might be the same turn of peace. I am OK of both choice -- elimination of unhappiness vs one more trade partner.
Dirk1302
Deity
I voted for wiping out earlier but now i think letting him keep the crab city could work out. It'll cause homesickness in the portugese cities which might hurt, especially in our future capital Lisbon. We also won't have the city (well maybe later 
)
But As Ungy said if he vassalizes we'll have a fair chance to recover quickly by master-vassal trade, it's a bit iffy (relations/wfybta/timing and some other things) but it might work out.
So neutral vote from me. Edit: i somewhat like this plan of an extra tradepartner, we have some margin on happy. So if there's no decision after the others vote let him live a bit longer.
)But As Ungy said if he vassalizes we'll have a fair chance to recover quickly by master-vassal trade, it's a bit iffy (relations/wfybta/timing and some other things) but it might work out.
So neutral vote from me. Edit: i somewhat like this plan of an extra tradepartner, we have some margin on happy. So if there's no decision after the others vote let him live a bit longer.
SnowlyWhite
Emperor
might be wrong, but, from what I know, the impact of trading with worst enemy works the same way as "fair relations" modifier. Sally knows brennus for a long time, we know sally for a long time. I don't think we'll get demerit from trading that fast, given the turns sally knows both of us. If it's a matter of how long brennus knows us, however, we'll get -4.
But frankly, the most I'm afraid of brennus atm.; not that he'll beat us if he invades, but that'd slow us down and that it'll bribe kubbie with him. He has high chance to declare at cautious, let alone at annoyed. And if kubbie declares, then we have to get on again with waiting for ob bonus to kick in.
KK is dubious as the future friendly target; plus he'll be our direct competitor. Both in space and in UN seat. He'll get out of bureau due to size pretty soon(yeah, we can spy him back) and with our size, bureau ain't too good either. I'd rather run theo with no religion, get +5 from both izzy and sally, get another +4 for fair trade, +2 from ob, +1 from peace, +2 from years of supply. We can even eat 1-2 demerits when they'll come asking to stop trading with whoever and still have them friendly. Even more, I've saw once each in about 30-40 games, to switch to fr; so this'll be a bonus till the end of time. Plus, for diplo, those 2 will have to vote us, not kubbie who'd be the other candidate.
I didn't load the save, but anyway, remember that all ep were direct on kk the end of my turn; think if we don't want other target or something.
also, due to founder and diff. agg. level, I think brennus will be worst enemy of both izzy and sally(who have bonus with each other due to theo). So after we gift him something to bump at cautious and ob, we should probably stop trading techs with brennus. Just normal trade and resources.
Very busy at the first turn
T183
Trade:
Brenus: paper for 40g, OP, we suffered -1 for relation with Sal and gain +4 with Brenus
Eliz: map for 45g
KK: map + 45g for map
Sal: Astro + map + 55g for Music, Incense for 10g
Eliz: map for 110g
Brenus: Astro for Guild, left Mono. we suffered -4 for relation with Sal in total.
Delete spy and Tri
City management -- Basically I let the cities to grow first.
Moscow: build Obs, no scientists, all citizens work on Food and Hammer tiles
SP, Nov, Evora: whip courthouse, Citizens of Evora works on Farm tiles
Oporto: Whip Lib
Yar, Tek: build Lib
Rost: build Gra
Lisbon: assign Cow to lisbon, build Palace and let the spy to work on tile
Yak, Yek: build LH
T184
Unexpected bonus -- we are the 1st to circumvent the map. My screen shot program sometimes works improperly, so this one did not work.
Capture Lagas at the cost of trebs + 1 mace. I see a bloody war going on from our remain SOD. The only trail left from our initial SOD is one Axe. Guess Joao's hidden force is far more than Noble level.
Gifting Joao Guild only gain +2 modification, plus liberated Lagas, finally he is cautious but we are still his worst enemy. Trade map to Joao for 50g. Have to wait for next turn for Edu trade. Dirk wants Lagas,
so Joao's only destiny is gone.
T185
We got ruin event. I am conservative so I did not gamble for more. 390 beakers to PP (this screen shot did not work either). Astro + Music for Edu from Joao and then redeclare. Captured Lagas before Joao's LB arrived.
Tech screen
our force
T186
A demand from Isa, off course we granted.
T187
Gone of Joao.
Cash supplied by AIs
T188
Unexpected trade from Brennus
T189,190
Sal : PP + 270 for Lib. Set science slider to 80% and research for Eco (wrong decision)
. I hope to trade Eco from KK by Lib and then trade Lib + Eco to Brennus for Nat. However KK finish researching it himself next turn.
T191
Double bulb SM. Sorry for intentional crappy play this turn since it is late now and I just want to finish this set. I should wait for another two turn so that the capital can finish Univ and other two cities can whip Univs.
T192
SM is in. 8 turns to Communism. We recover and catch up.
I have not checked if anyone near to it.
Some initial thought for next set.
1. we are still low in population due to my aggressive whipping of the cities except Moscow and Lisbon. so I would still prioritize citizen to work on farm instead of cottages or hamlet. So does the improvement of workers, I sent them to farm basically. By the way, need a few more workers for current empire.
2. I prefer teching Communism next for the reason I mentioned before. We can hold on tech for a couple turns until the extra 3 Universities is up. Also I think we don't need other techs atm so we can hold the tech trade for a while. Would be nice if we can win both GSpy and GS.
Notice: our little wb is coming back, so we don't need to build wb for Braga.
T183
Trade:
Brenus: paper for 40g, OP, we suffered -1 for relation with Sal and gain +4 with Brenus
Eliz: map for 45g
KK: map + 45g for map
Sal: Astro + map + 55g for Music, Incense for 10g
Eliz: map for 110g
Brenus: Astro for Guild, left Mono. we suffered -4 for relation with Sal in total.
Delete spy and Tri
City management -- Basically I let the cities to grow first.
Moscow: build Obs, no scientists, all citizens work on Food and Hammer tiles
SP, Nov, Evora: whip courthouse, Citizens of Evora works on Farm tiles
Oporto: Whip Lib
Yar, Tek: build Lib
Rost: build Gra
Lisbon: assign Cow to lisbon, build Palace and let the spy to work on tile
Yak, Yek: build LH
T184
Unexpected bonus -- we are the 1st to circumvent the map.
My screen shot program sometimes works improperly, so this one did not work.Capture Lagas at the cost of trebs + 1 mace. I see a bloody war going on from our remain SOD. The only trail left from our initial SOD is one Axe. Guess Joao's hidden force is far more than Noble level.
Gifting Joao Guild only gain +2 modification, plus liberated Lagas, finally he is cautious but we are still his worst enemy. Trade map to Joao for 50g. Have to wait for next turn for Edu trade. Dirk wants Lagas, so Joao's only destiny is gone.T185
We got ruin event.
I am conservative so I did not gamble for more. 390 beakers to PP (this screen shot did not work either). Astro + Music for Edu from Joao and then redeclare. Captured Lagas before Joao's LB arrived.Tech screen
our force
T186
A demand from Isa, off course we granted.
T187
Gone of Joao.
Cash supplied by AIs
T188
Unexpected trade from Brennus
T189,190
Sal : PP + 270 for Lib. Set science slider to 80% and research for Eco (wrong decision)
. I hope to trade Eco from KK by Lib and then trade Lib + Eco to Brennus for Nat. However KK finish researching it himself next turn.T191
Double bulb SM. Sorry for intentional crappy play this turn since it is late now and I just want to finish this set.
I should wait for another two turn so that the capital can finish Univ and other two cities can whip Univs.T192
SM is in. 8 turns to Communism. We recover and catch up.
I have not checked if anyone near to it.
Some initial thought for next set.
1. we are still low in population due to my aggressive whipping of the cities except Moscow and Lisbon. so I would still prioritize citizen to work on farm instead of cottages or hamlet. So does the improvement of workers, I sent them to farm basically. By the way, need a few more workers for current empire.
2. I prefer teching Communism next for the reason I mentioned before. We can hold on tech for a couple turns until the extra 3 Universities is up. Also I think we don't need other techs atm so we can hold the tech trade for a while. Would be nice if we can win both GSpy and GS.
Notice: our little wb is coming back, so we don't need to build wb for Braga.
Looks really good from reading the report! Ruin event and getting to trade for PP--wow!!
Doesn't hurt to get Isabella to pleased either!
About scientific method:
Liz, KK and Sal all gave economics+gunpowder for SM and 110 gold so none of them have started researching it.
Brennus has started on SM.
Isabella is in wfyabta so I dunno.
Revolting to FM+FR makes sense (trading for economics somehow).
If we get chemistry in trade within few turns I'd go for biology instead. Our cities are small, so it could help us grow them.
Doesn't hurt to get Isabella to pleased either!
About scientific method:
Liz, KK and Sal all gave economics+gunpowder for SM and 110 gold so none of them have started researching it.
Brennus has started on SM.
Isabella is in wfyabta so I dunno.
Revolting to FM+FR makes sense (trading for economics somehow).
If we get chemistry in trade within few turns I'd go for biology instead. Our cities are small, so it could help us grow them.
