unit progression
- Thread starter davidlallen
- Start date
davidlallen
Deity
There may be many ways to achieve faster movement. You suggested airlift, deliverator suggested sand dhows, I suggested worms, and each one of us has disagreed with one of the suggestions. I was only saying that another possible solution is to put back roads.
The civfans site seems to be having some trouble staying up in the last hour. I am getting a lot of disconnects.
The civfans site seems to be having some trouble staying up in the last hour. I am getting a lot of disconnects.
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
I think the vague mysterious apocalypse idea actually makes more sense of early thopters. In the books, think of the position the Atreides are in after the Harkonnen attack. They have very little of anything left. All our Houses can be in a similar position at the beginning of the game. Also in the books, the Emperor has weapons/equipments caches scattered all over the planet. If anyone asks us then the build time of the early thopters is just making these hidden cache thopters operational. The factions retain the knowledge to fly them. That is basically what happens with the Atreides/Fremen in the book.
It sounds like it is faster worker movement that Koma wants. If it is getting workers across deep desert in the early game, then I think kite buggies/sand dhows is fun and fits the bill. We can't be too worried about realism on this mod. Quote from the book: "Aircraft capable of sustained wing-beat flight in the manner of birds" - not especially realistic.
2 questions:
1) Can anyone tell me a little more about the strategical resources we have in dw? I try to decide which resources are required for unit training but I don't have a clue what soostone, crystals and the other resources (ok, ore I can guess) are used for in the books.
2) What is up with the deep harvester? It was moved further down the tech tree in one of the last updates. Why? And do we really need to types of workers?
Thx!
1) Can anyone tell me a little more about the strategical resources we have in dw? I try to decide which resources are required for unit training but I don't have a clue what soostone, crystals and the other resources (ok, ore I can guess) are used for in the books.
2) What is up with the deep harvester? It was moved further down the tech tree in one of the last updates. Why? And do we really need to types of workers?
Thx!
davidlallen
Deity
I am afraid there is not much "design" behind the current strategic resources, nor is there much guidance in the books. The strategic early game resources in vanilla are horses, bronze and iron; these are all initially hidden and are required to build units. In the later game we have oil and uranium. In DW currently, there are soostone, crystal and ore for the early game, and plaz, iridium and plasteel for the late game. I did not find much logic behind these when I started, and I am afraid there is not much logic behind them now.
In 1.2.3 I gave the worker the ability to create spice harvesters. With this, you could argue there is no need at all for the deep harvester. It can create a desert compound, but that is not used for anything really. I could have deleted the deep harvester; I did not have any strong reason to leave it around. Similarly there is the "former" unit, short for transformer I guess, which is used for the various terraforming actions. Both the former and the deep harvester could be eliminated and I don't think anybody would miss them.
Ok, thank you. Now I only have to do the promotions and a changelog , then I finally can upload my work. 
David, do you think there is an easy way in wormai (python) to tell the worm ai to ignore thopters (better all units that have bIgnoreTerrainCost)? I looked into that function but I see only code for improvements and the thumper. I tried to change that in the sdk but I ended up with worm completly ignoring the stack/group when a thopter is at present.
David, do you think there is an easy way in wormai (python) to tell the worm ai to ignore thopters (better all units that have bIgnoreTerrainCost)? I looked into that function but I see only code for improvements and the thumper. I tried to change that in the sdk but I ended up with worm completly ignoring the stack/group when a thopter is at present.
davidlallen
Deity
Part of that is easy and part is hard. The easy part is to make the worm not be attracted to units with that xml flag. The hard part is, for a mixed stack which the worm is attacking, to ensure that the worm picks only units without that flag to attack. I do not think python provides a way to indicate which unit in a stack to attack; the game engine picks the one which has the highest defense against the attacker.
However, as I recall in the SciFi miniseries, when Duke Leto lands his thopter near the harvester which is about to be eaten, the worm comes awfully close to swallowing the thopter out of the air. This is for dramatic effect, but perhaps it is not so bad if the thopter could be attacked by the worm.
Is there a standard way to indicate whether units should be skipped by certain attackers? I guess FFH Marksman does this, but that is kind of specialized.
However, as I recall in the SciFi miniseries, when Duke Leto lands his thopter near the harvester which is about to be eaten, the worm comes awfully close to swallowing the thopter out of the air. This is for dramatic effect, but perhaps it is not so bad if the thopter could be attacked by the worm.
Is there a standard way to indicate whether units should be skipped by certain attackers? I guess FFH Marksman does this, but that is kind of specialized.
You are right. I remember there is some getBestDefender function somewhere in the sdk source.
Well, the problem in that scene was that the thopter had too much load and therefore needed more time to gain a height that is safe. In general I would say that thopters can easily outmaneuver sandworms.
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
Agreed. I'd still like to see the Desert Worker upgrade to Worker Carryall after Carryall becomes available. I want to be able to place Harvesters with my Carryall for Dune authenticity.
davidlallen
Deity
We have seen before that this "hover spam" is due to the AI seeing the storms and worms in the ocean as threats, so it builds a huge number of ocean attack units. I made this a little better by making the storms defensive only, and by only putting sandworms of an appropriate strength. Can you please mouse-over the sandworms you see on the map, and tell me what is their combat strength? In the early game they have strength 20, but they can go up to 80. If this code is not working quite right and putting all 80's, this may cause the "hover spam" to come later in the game.
But let us also see what happens with koma's new units.
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
Our unit combat classes could use some rationalisation/refinement I think. These are the combat types we have:
Infantry
MELEE
LIGHT INFANTRY
HEAVY INFANTRY
BURSEG (A bit of a bucket for late units)
Siege
MAULA
Land Vehicles
ROVERS
SCORPION (Tanks)
Aircraft
THOPTER
HOVER
HORNET
TRANSPORT
1) Do we need separate categories for Light Infantry and Heavy Infantry? Isn't just having better and better Infantry units enough?
2) What do we do about Burseg? I don't particularly like it being a unit class. Perhaps we should have a Hero group for powerful late game units.
3) I'm really not sure that having three different sorts of flying combat craft is warranted. What is the significant difference between Thopters, Hovers and Hornets aside from their means of propulsion perhaps?
4) Could we rename Scorpion to Armor? (see I speak American too)
See this csv (which can be loaded as a spreadsheet) for the full list of current Dune Wars units (1.3.6).
Infantry
MELEE
LIGHT INFANTRY
HEAVY INFANTRY
BURSEG (A bit of a bucket for late units)
Siege
MAULA
Land Vehicles
ROVERS
SCORPION (Tanks)
Aircraft
THOPTER
HOVER
HORNET
TRANSPORT
1) Do we need separate categories for Light Infantry and Heavy Infantry? Isn't just having better and better Infantry units enough?
2) What do we do about Burseg? I don't particularly like it being a unit class. Perhaps we should have a Hero group for powerful late game units.
3) I'm really not sure that having three different sorts of flying combat craft is warranted. What is the significant difference between Thopters, Hovers and Hornets aside from their means of propulsion perhaps?
4) Could we rename Scorpion to Armor? (see I speak American too)
See this csv (which can be loaded as a spreadsheet) for the full list of current Dune Wars units (1.3.6).
hey d',
1. its possible to unite the infantry tag, i separated then cause its easier to define combat bonuses to the various units more specifically. but it possible to unite.
2. well - their first goal was to be units that can cross deep deserts and land aswell,
now its just a unit that acts as main city raiders , scorpions are more for combat support (if i remember right).
3. thopters - gunship units that can travel both land and sandsea/desert -some should be allowed to travel onto deep desert.
hornets - air unit basis - they act as aircrafts and carry air missions.
hovers - acts as ships like in the vanilla, though we should change their name to suspenders.
shouldnt be allowed on land but its logical to allow them to enter land as well.
transports - obvious.
4. mmm.....scorpion to armor...i can lie and say i like this...cause i wanna have distinct units from the vanilla, perhaps another name for tank like units? anyone thinks like me?
one of the things i like the most in a mod, that with units you have a veriety to choose from,
when in a certain era - you dont have to build just one kind of unit to attack with - like in the vanilla that you get tank - you build only tank to assault,
i much rather have two types of units - two types of tanks - one with this type of advantages and the other with that type of values.
i like a rock paper scissor mechanism, that you army must be consists of more types of units,
so you wont stick just to one - like modern armor in vanilla...
its much more fun, and besides units are cool.
as for the combat types them self,
it depends on the art we have availble right?
how about we spread the unit and combats in a more detailed version of what i suggest,
make a more clear way to have diversity of unit classes,
like rovers are meant to be city defenders,
scorpions are meant to attack other units and aid in city attack
burseg/another name are meant to be mainly for attacking cities
thopters - scout and anti infantry
hovers - sea units
hornet air assault.
mhula - siege units
these are my thought.
1. its possible to unite the infantry tag, i separated then cause its easier to define combat bonuses to the various units more specifically. but it possible to unite.
2. well - their first goal was to be units that can cross deep deserts and land aswell,
now its just a unit that acts as main city raiders , scorpions are more for combat support (if i remember right).
3. thopters - gunship units that can travel both land and sandsea/desert -some should be allowed to travel onto deep desert.
hornets - air unit basis - they act as aircrafts and carry air missions.
hovers - acts as ships like in the vanilla, though we should change their name to suspenders.
shouldnt be allowed on land but its logical to allow them to enter land as well.
transports - obvious.
4. mmm.....scorpion to armor...i can lie and say i like this...cause i wanna have distinct units from the vanilla, perhaps another name for tank like units? anyone thinks like me?
one of the things i like the most in a mod, that with units you have a veriety to choose from,
when in a certain era - you dont have to build just one kind of unit to attack with - like in the vanilla that you get tank - you build only tank to assault,
i much rather have two types of units - two types of tanks - one with this type of advantages and the other with that type of values.
i like a rock paper scissor mechanism, that you army must be consists of more types of units,
so you wont stick just to one - like modern armor in vanilla...
its much more fun, and besides units are cool.
as for the combat types them self,
it depends on the art we have availble right?
how about we spread the unit and combats in a more detailed version of what i suggest,
make a more clear way to have diversity of unit classes,
like rovers are meant to be city defenders,
scorpions are meant to attack other units and aid in city attack
burseg/another name are meant to be mainly for attacking cities
thopters - scout and anti infantry
hovers - sea units
hornet air assault.
mhula - siege units
these are my thought.
Lord Tirian
Erratic Poster
I think we need some flavour thread to avoid these gameplay/flavour cross-discussions!
But I agree, "tank" or "armour" doesn't fit (nor does "scorpion", I think). The Dune universe has rather metaphorical, yet concise and descriptive names instead of contemporary names, like:
Carryall (instead of air transporter, lifter or so)
Harvester (instead of something like extraction crawler)
Heighliner (reminiscent of high line or something, it just sounds sensible - whereas other sci-fi might use something like "Emperor Class", long-range cruiser or something)
Lasguns (a nice contraction - instead of laser guns, beam weaponry etc.)
The list goes on and on. I think we can emulate that style, but we do need some creativity and brainstorming for that.
Cheers, LT.
davidlallen
Deity
I like scorpion. When I looked at the units, I realized it was "desert tanks", but at least the scorpion is a desert animal. I'd rather not use generic "armor". If somebody can suggest another good term, that is fine too. "Lastank" seems unsafe since all you need is a small shield generator to self-destruct it.
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
I actually prefer the name Scorpion myself, thinking about it, let's keep it for now.
Also, if you look at the spreadsheet. Some of the unit classes only have a small number of units and some have many. This might be OK, I'm just pointing it out.
We could rename Bursegs to Shock Troops, Assault Troops, something like that.
I'd rather get the concepts/mechanics right, and then make the art. If we make art and then the game design changes that work may be wasted. There are plenty of good units around to be placeholders. Get good fun, flavourful, game mechanics and then the art will be the icing on the cake.
Also, if you look at the spreadsheet. Some of the unit classes only have a small number of units and some have many. This might be OK, I'm just pointing it out.
We could rename Bursegs to Shock Troops, Assault Troops, something like that.
I'd rather get the concepts/mechanics right, and then make the art. If we make art and then the game design changes that work may be wasted. There are plenty of good units around to be placeholders. Get good fun, flavourful, game mechanics and then the art will be the icing on the cake.
Ahriman
Tyrant
I have no objection to Scorpion.
Some other possibilities; Carapace, Extoskeleton, Aegis, Battletron, Stinger, Ripper, Shell, Hull, Stormtread
There needs to be a lot of rationalization between the various units and tech tiers. There are lot of useless units, or units that are rapidly surpassed by other units of similar tech. For example, the lasgun infantry at strength 12 is only a short distance behind the strength 25 al-lat.
The 12 strength 4 move medium hover is only 1 tech behind the strength 10 2 move light scorpion. The medium hover is far too effective a unit; land-based units like infantry and scorpions should have higher strength for similar tech levels than units like thopters and hovers that can enter desert tiles.
The Al-Lat and medium scorp are very similar.
Medium scorps are a 1 move unit with blitz (which is redundant).
Rovers as city defense units are weird.
Rollers and scorpions need to be thought about; is one heavily armored, the other light? Whats the difference?
Some other possibilities; Carapace, Extoskeleton, Aegis, Battletron, Stinger, Ripper, Shell, Hull, Stormtread
There needs to be a lot of rationalization between the various units and tech tiers. There are lot of useless units, or units that are rapidly surpassed by other units of similar tech. For example, the lasgun infantry at strength 12 is only a short distance behind the strength 25 al-lat.
The 12 strength 4 move medium hover is only 1 tech behind the strength 10 2 move light scorpion. The medium hover is far too effective a unit; land-based units like infantry and scorpions should have higher strength for similar tech levels than units like thopters and hovers that can enter desert tiles.
The Al-Lat and medium scorp are very similar.
Medium scorps are a 1 move unit with blitz (which is redundant).
Rovers as city defense units are weird.
Rollers and scorpions need to be thought about; is one heavily armored, the other light? Whats the difference?
