Lord Tirian
Erratic Poster
Some ideas I had:
Gear, Guardian, Breaker, War Machine, Bulk of War, Havocmaker.
EDIT: Another idea that just came to me: Hauberk - has something martial about it!
Cheers, LT.
unit progression
- Thread starter davidlallen
- Start date
Gear, Guardian, Breaker, War Machine, Bulk of War, Havocmaker.
EDIT: Another idea that just came to me: Hauberk - has something martial about it!
Cheers, LT.
- i like it as well,
nice, scorpion is my first pref', but - battleron is cool, ripper also, but scorp' is a desert creature
shock troopers are nice as well,
we can replace burseg into infantry unit type that are super stronger then normal infantry - the kind that can destroy tanks .
also,
i think each class need to have at least - 3+ unit classes.
my original design was -light - medium - heavy to each type.
each need to have purpose - dont want useless...
roller is a rover type - original plan - city defense unit.
scorpions - heavy assault
burseg - city attackers.
Ahriman
Tyrant
It makes no sense to me that a rover is a city defense unit. Even the name Rover implies a high movement field skirmisher.
To me, roller actually implies a city assault unit rather than a field-superiority unit; I think the name showed up in some other scifi; pirates attacking a planet had infantry and rollers, which were kindof mechanized battering ram/apc type things, that were designed to be heavily armored and punch through defenses, and then let the infantry out.
Why are melee units 2 moves but ranged infantry aren't? Doesn't quite make sense.
The Al-Lat (strength 25) comes shortly after the lasgun trooper (strength 12) but well before the lasgun soldier (strength 24).
The basic unit roles from civ work pretty well;
City defender (archer)
City attacker (swordsmen)
Anti-city attacker and anti-anti-mobile unit (axemen, crossbow)
Mobile unit A: field superiority (knight, armor)
Mobile unit B: skirmisher (horsemen, horse archer)
Anti-mobile unit (spearman, AT infantry)
Anti-air unit (SAM trooper)
Artillery (catapult)
So I'd consider:
City defender; soldier, infantry, infantry 2, al-lat
City attacker; melee infantry/shock troops. Raider, bladesman, elite bladesman, lasgun trooper, saudarkar (these units ignore city walls)
Anti-city attacker; thopter, battle thopter, assault thopter. Can't capture cities, can travel in deserts. Grenadiers.
Mobile A: 2 move mechanized units, high strength. Scorpions.
Mobile B: 2-3 move mechanized units with lower strength but withdraw chances, bonuses vs artillery. Quad, Sand Rover, Dune Buggy, etc.
Anti-mobile A: Burseg, Saudakar, Al-Lat. Anti-tank units.
Anti-mobile B: missile troopers. Anti-thoptor, anti-aircraft. Intercept chances.
Aircraft. Hornet (fighter), assault hornet (bomber).
Artillery. Maula siege.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Medium thopter has only 1 move? should be 3. Also, thats a loooong way in the tech tree between the battle thopter and the medium thopter. Should be shorter.
Medium hornet has no intercept mission?
Medium hornet has no intercept mission?
I understand you guys are changing up the units and the mid-late game techs. Nonetheless, I might as well report my mid-late game concerns regarding unit progression.
There is a startling jump in unit power with the tech Cooling Systems yielding the unit Heavy Hover (strength 35). I think the next most powerful unit you can REASONABLY acquire before this is actually the Medium Hover at strength 12. The tech line to Cooling Systems is very attractive, so I think it is one of those techs a human player (at a minimum) would probably beeline in the current tech tree once the appropriate era is reached. It is almost universally the first of the "Tech level 3" units you can get. In fact, it appears before Tech level 2 units appear in other lines (i.e. burseg, roller, etc.)
Point is, either the unit needs to be toned down or it should be pushed a little further up the tech line. Actually, I dont think the unit should really be toned down because it is the weakest of the T3 units; if it is reduced in power, it would be effectively useless at the late game stage (after all, heighliners are beasts capable of defending themselves). Thus, keeping in mind I understand this is fairly hard to balance overall because other T2 units reach 25 strength (again, burseg comes to mind off the top of my head), I think the Heavy Hover comes a few techs too soon.
Also, I second the suggestion of making an infantry line ending in the Acolyte as the primary defensive line. Additionally, I feel like the Soldier unit is kind of a waste. I never build them because it is easy enough to get the tech for infantry, who are much more powerful. Eliminating the soldier barely affects the current infantry progression:
Infantry (3) -> Infantry II (6) -> Lasgun soldier (12) -> Al-lat (25) -> (if you choose to add it) Acolyte (42).
Unless it is too much of a pain to eliminate (because of, say, the Fremen UU), I think you can safely eliminate it.
There is a startling jump in unit power with the tech Cooling Systems yielding the unit Heavy Hover (strength 35). I think the next most powerful unit you can REASONABLY acquire before this is actually the Medium Hover at strength 12. The tech line to Cooling Systems is very attractive, so I think it is one of those techs a human player (at a minimum) would probably beeline in the current tech tree once the appropriate era is reached. It is almost universally the first of the "Tech level 3" units you can get. In fact, it appears before Tech level 2 units appear in other lines (i.e. burseg, roller, etc.)
Point is, either the unit needs to be toned down or it should be pushed a little further up the tech line. Actually, I dont think the unit should really be toned down because it is the weakest of the T3 units; if it is reduced in power, it would be effectively useless at the late game stage (after all, heighliners are beasts capable of defending themselves). Thus, keeping in mind I understand this is fairly hard to balance overall because other T2 units reach 25 strength (again, burseg comes to mind off the top of my head), I think the Heavy Hover comes a few techs too soon.
Also, I second the suggestion of making an infantry line ending in the Acolyte as the primary defensive line. Additionally, I feel like the Soldier unit is kind of a waste. I never build them because it is easy enough to get the tech for infantry, who are much more powerful. Eliminating the soldier barely affects the current infantry progression:
Infantry (3) -> Infantry II (6) -> Lasgun soldier (12) -> Al-lat (25) -> (if you choose to add it) Acolyte (42).
Unless it is too much of a pain to eliminate (because of, say, the Fremen UU), I think you can safely eliminate it.
Ahriman
Tyrant
I think the medium hover and heavy hover need to have their strengths toned down in general. High movement units that can cross deserts shouldnt' be higher strength than their much more limited mobility infantry/armor units of similar tech levels.
True, however if the AI can intelligently use transporters then I don't mind so much. This mod is great in having the transporters themselves being very high strength, the top end being even higher than the Heavy Hover. Like I said, the 35 strength heavy hover is the weakest of all by a decent margin, but it just comes so soon.
10 strength 25 withdrawal
30 strength 40 withdrawal
maybe? I think the idea of withdrawal suits them well...
10 strength 25 withdrawal
30 strength 40 withdrawal
maybe? I think the idea of withdrawal suits them well...
Ahriman
Tyrant
The 35 strength heavy hover is competing mostly with ~strength 24 infantry. Its way too strong.
I'd avoid giving them big withdraw chances too. Leave those for actual skirmish units, like rollers.
Scorpions should be high strength field units
Infantry should be cheap city defenders or shock troops or specialist AT/AA.
Rovers and rollers should be mobile skirmishers with withdraw chance.
Hovers should be there as mobile naval units, but weaker in combat because of this.
There should be a design cost to any features; if you have all-terrain capability and high movement, something else has to give.
People complained a lot about medium and heavy hover spam by the AI and said it was because of bugs (partly it was), but its also really just demonstration of very effective aI; the AI recognized that these were the best units by far.
I'd avoid giving them big withdraw chances too. Leave those for actual skirmish units, like rollers.
Scorpions should be high strength field units
Infantry should be cheap city defenders or shock troops or specialist AT/AA.
Rovers and rollers should be mobile skirmishers with withdraw chance.
Hovers should be there as mobile naval units, but weaker in combat because of this.
There should be a design cost to any features; if you have all-terrain capability and high movement, something else has to give.
People complained a lot about medium and heavy hover spam by the AI and said it was because of bugs (partly it was), but its also really just demonstration of very effective aI; the AI recognized that these were the best units by far.
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
I'm thinking of the following renames in 1.3.8 (-> indicates renaming):
DEFENDERS
Light Infantry -> Guard/Guardian : city defense, Anti-Air, Anti-Tank later on..
(Could split this into Guard, Anti-Air, Anti-Tank)
CITY ASSAULT
Melee : the early city assault units. Melee units move quicker because they carry less kit.
Heavy Infantry -> Shock Troops : (Sardukaar, Fedaykin, etc are in this category)
I consider these to be upgraded Melee troops (Bladesmen). The Sardukaar and Fedaykin most commonly fight with swords and crysknives respectively, so this is true to the books. In general, I'd like this class to be mostly melee fighters, because that makes the mod distinctive and captures the important of melee combat from the books.
Burseg -> Elite (Tricky one since it doesn't get more Elite that the Sardukaar and Fedaykin, but I guess this could become the Hero units - or we move Sard and Fed into this category. I want to loose the name Burseg which is not appropriate for all factions - if anyone has a better idea...)
LAND VEHICLES
Rover -> Rapid Strike - Quads, Buggies, etc. Mobile skirmishers. For fans of the Westwood games...
Scorpion : Stays as it is, tanks, etc.
Are there any Roller units in the latest version? The unit spreadsheet David produced doesn't seem to have any. I don't think they are distinct enough from Scorpion and we need a better name. Roller makes me think of painting and decorating. I reckon scrap them and have a more powerful-than-Scorpion field superiority vehicle class for the later game.
AIR VEHICLES
Thopter -> Anti-City Assault Infantry, Rapid Movement, Scouting.
Hover -> Suspensor Craft (?) (I do think that using Holtzman fields for aircraft would still drive the worms into a killing frenzy, but I'll go with the majority): mobile naval units
Still not a huge fan of Hornet - can we have separate categories for Interceptor and Bomber if that is going to be the use of the unit.
DEFENDERS
Light Infantry -> Guard/Guardian : city defense, Anti-Air, Anti-Tank later on..
(Could split this into Guard, Anti-Air, Anti-Tank)
CITY ASSAULT
Melee : the early city assault units. Melee units move quicker because they carry less kit.
Heavy Infantry -> Shock Troops : (Sardukaar, Fedaykin, etc are in this category)
I consider these to be upgraded Melee troops (Bladesmen). The Sardukaar and Fedaykin most commonly fight with swords and crysknives respectively, so this is true to the books. In general, I'd like this class to be mostly melee fighters, because that makes the mod distinctive and captures the important of melee combat from the books.
Burseg -> Elite (Tricky one since it doesn't get more Elite that the Sardukaar and Fedaykin, but I guess this could become the Hero units - or we move Sard and Fed into this category. I want to loose the name Burseg which is not appropriate for all factions - if anyone has a better idea...)
LAND VEHICLES
Rover -> Rapid Strike - Quads, Buggies, etc. Mobile skirmishers. For fans of the Westwood games...
Scorpion : Stays as it is, tanks, etc.
Are there any Roller units in the latest version? The unit spreadsheet David produced doesn't seem to have any. I don't think they are distinct enough from Scorpion and we need a better name. Roller makes me think of painting and decorating. I reckon scrap them and have a more powerful-than-Scorpion field superiority vehicle class for the later game.
AIR VEHICLES
Thopter -> Anti-City Assault Infantry, Rapid Movement, Scouting.
Hover -> Suspensor Craft (?) (I do think that using Holtzman fields for aircraft would still drive the worms into a killing frenzy, but I'll go with the majority): mobile naval units
Still not a huge fan of Hornet - can we have separate categories for Interceptor and Bomber if that is going to be the use of the unit.
Ahriman
Tyrant
I would make Bursegs generic high end shock troops; Fedaykin and Saudakar should be Fremen and Imperial UUs.
Re: scorpions; I think we're missing Devastator as a Harkonnen UU heavy scorpion?
I would make rollers high-end skirmish vehicles.
I would make sure that there are high end city defense infantry distinct from AA and AT infantry.
Re: scorpions; I think we're missing Devastator as a Harkonnen UU heavy scorpion?
I would make rollers high-end skirmish vehicles.
I would make sure that there are high end city defense infantry distinct from AA and AT infantry.
SwordOfJustice
Chieftain
This is really important work for any Civ mod. The balance between units and unit progression are foundations for a fun strategic wargame.
I believe every faction should have some custom units with particular strengths, as it is in normal Civ, and I also believe every faction should have customised names for what are otherwise standard units.
Here are my ideas so far. You guys can adapt these names to the appropriate types in the mod.
I haven't yet played it but I will try to find what is the current version and appropriate stable patch version from the furious flurry of patches flying around!
FREMEN
======
Sietch Warriors - basic infantry (crysknife and maula pistols)
Desert Hunters - better movement?
Sietch Veterans - heavier (they have maula rifles or other heavier weapons)
Water Guardians - more elite warriors, have sacred duty to protect
Naib's Chosen - elites chosen by the Naib of the tribe
HOUSE ATREIDES
===========
House Militia - basic infantry
House Regulars
House Guard
Zensunni Blade Masters
SPACING GUILD
===========
Local Garrison
Guild Militia
Smugglers
Spacing Guard
Cheers,
Sword
I believe every faction should have some custom units with particular strengths, as it is in normal Civ, and I also believe every faction should have customised names for what are otherwise standard units.
Here are my ideas so far. You guys can adapt these names to the appropriate types in the mod.
I haven't yet played it but I will try to find what is the current version and appropriate stable patch version from the furious flurry of patches flying around!
FREMEN
======
Sietch Warriors - basic infantry (crysknife and maula pistols)
Desert Hunters - better movement?
Sietch Veterans - heavier (they have maula rifles or other heavier weapons)
Water Guardians - more elite warriors, have sacred duty to protect
Naib's Chosen - elites chosen by the Naib of the tribe
HOUSE ATREIDES
===========
House Militia - basic infantry
House Regulars
House Guard
Zensunni Blade Masters
SPACING GUILD
===========
Local Garrison
Guild Militia
Smugglers
Spacing Guard
Cheers,
Sword
Ahriman
Tyrant
As something that comes up during design; the difference between unit classes in terms of in-game classes, where different classes will have bonuses against them (eg mounted vs melee vs archer) and different classes in terms of unit roles (eg longbowmen and crossbowmen in vanilla are the same unit class, but have different roles).
For this discussion, lets use Class for the first, and Role for the second.
There is no need for fighter and bomber hornets to be different Classes; they can both be hornet class. In fact, they could be the same class as thopters. So, an AA missile infantry could get a bonus vs Class_Thopter, which would benefit vs the fighter hornet units, the bomber hornet units, and the helicoptor thopter units.
Similarly, the City defender role, the Anti-Tank role, the Anti-Aircraft role can all be on Class_Infantry units. While all the shock troops (bursegs, bladesmen, saudarkar, etc.) can be Class_Melee role.
So, the total number of classes then would be (at minimum):
Infantry
Melee
Suspensor (transport hovers and escort hovers)
Thopter (including hornets, and carryalls?) OR Aircraft (if hornets aren't thopters)
Scorption (tank)
Roller (buggy, quad, etc.)
Siege
For this discussion, lets use Class for the first, and Role for the second.
There is no need for fighter and bomber hornets to be different Classes; they can both be hornet class. In fact, they could be the same class as thopters. So, an AA missile infantry could get a bonus vs Class_Thopter, which would benefit vs the fighter hornet units, the bomber hornet units, and the helicoptor thopter units.
Similarly, the City defender role, the Anti-Tank role, the Anti-Aircraft role can all be on Class_Infantry units. While all the shock troops (bursegs, bladesmen, saudarkar, etc.) can be Class_Melee role.
So, the total number of classes then would be (at minimum):
Infantry
Melee
Suspensor (transport hovers and escort hovers)
Thopter (including hornets, and carryalls?) OR Aircraft (if hornets aren't thopters)
Scorption (tank)
Roller (buggy, quad, etc.)
Siege
Ahriman,
nice ideas, i like them,
uniting the hornets with thopters can be a good idea -
gunship like
fighter like
bomber like.
not bad.
7 combat categories can be fine,
or maybe 8.
very good ideas.
lets get some votes so we can establish the unit basis ,so ill start setting this up in patch 1.3.9.
what should it be guys?
nice ideas, i like them,
uniting the hornets with thopters can be a good idea -
gunship like
fighter like
bomber like.
not bad.
7 combat categories can be fine,
or maybe 8.
very good ideas.
lets get some votes so we can establish the unit basis ,so ill start setting this up in patch 1.3.9.
what should it be guys?
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
Changed my mind with Hornet too. I've decided I like it.
I've attached the csv for the unit renames and strategic resources I'm intending to do in patch 1.3.8. It's not aiming to be perfect, just be an improvement.
I am steering clear of moving these units around the tech tree and changing their strength, etc. I'll leave aspect of the reworking that to Keldath. I'm just interested in getting the strategic resources sorted and changing some odd names like Al-Lat (which means 'sun') and Jubba (which is a type of cloak).
I've attached the csv for the unit renames and strategic resources I'm intending to do in patch 1.3.8. It's not aiming to be perfect, just be an improvement.
I am steering clear of moving these units around the tech tree and changing their strength, etc. I'll leave aspect of the reworking that to Keldath. I'm just interested in getting the strategic resources sorted and changing some odd names like Al-Lat (which means 'sun') and Jubba (which is a type of cloak).
thanks deliverator,
ill do the rework.
if you can assist me, and writing me what unit types will require which resources, so ill edit their preqeq.
ill make a re organization to the units, maybe adding tech or two to help this.
ill do the rework.
if you can assist me, and writing me what unit types will require which resources, so ill edit their preqeq.
ill make a re organization to the units, maybe adding tech or two to help this.
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
My basic rationale for strategic resources has been:
Iron Ore -> Swords, Blades, Early Armour
Crystal -> Suspensors, Flying
Diamonds -> Lasgun Weaponry
Nitrates -> High-explosive shells, bombs, missiles, etc
Stravidium -> Plasteel - late heavy armour
Uranium -> atomic propulsion, power and weaponry
I am experimenting in patch 1.3.8 with imported goods as strategic resources because I think it is an interesting idea. That is why you see new Resources such as Fremkits, Thinking Machines and Sapho Juice in the list.
Iron Ore -> Swords, Blades, Early Armour
Crystal -> Suspensors, Flying
Diamonds -> Lasgun Weaponry
Nitrates -> High-explosive shells, bombs, missiles, etc
Stravidium -> Plasteel - late heavy armour
Uranium -> atomic propulsion, power and weaponry
I am experimenting in patch 1.3.8 with imported goods as strategic resources because I think it is an interesting idea. That is why you see new Resources such as Fremkits, Thinking Machines and Sapho Juice in the list.
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