Unusual Start! - Unplayable?

[InovA]

Sooo the initial site looks orgasmic for a GP city, especially for the Philosophical Saladin, only drawbacks being that it's very far north and has snow nearby so I'd want to reset, but it's hard to pass up all the Nemos and Sebastions.

Spoiler :

A few dozen turns later I finished my first settler - but no possible city sites feel like they help lead me to a good position!

Site [1] provides some cattle, but is so far away that it seems impractical and difficult to defend from barbs or if I declare an early war.

Site [2] would provide copper and with a road built asap both cities could try for an axe rush, though my closest known neighbor is still a good 12 tiles away from my capital.

Note:
- Monarch Difficulty
- Vanilla Saladin [SPI/PHI]
- Huge Fractal map : 18 players [Rand Personalities / Agg AI]
- Tech:
Mining -> BW
Fishing
Mysticism [omw to priesthood for oracle]
Hunting
Wheel
- 3 neighbors found, 2 to east somewhere and Alexander to my south, border shown.

I feel like trying to set up ~5-6 solid cities and teching normally will go poorly with this map, though early war could be suicidal. What would you do here?
If copper -> Axe rush seems bad, maybe I should get Animal Husbandry and hope I can do a Horse Archer push soon, otherwise I'll rally up an army of my endless...

Spoiler :

BEAVERS!

 

[ikotomi]

Split the capital food with your first city. It won't be amazing, but can still help whip work boats, and get some extra commerce.

AI is only monarch, so it will be quite playable. Axe rush probably would work, but Horse Archers are definitely safer if you can reveal horses before your 3rd settler.

 

[ConfusedCounsel]

I'm not really sure about your decision to go for the oracle here. It is an excellent wonder, but I'd probably prefer the great light house in your current position. I don't think you can afford both as you don't have marble and aren't industrious, and the only production of note is chopping those forests.
I'd also settle my first 2 cities a lot closer, one on one of the seaside beavers, just south of the capitol. One just west of the capitol, directly below the wales.
They only food within miles are those seafoods and your capitol really can't use them all for a loooooong time. Two crabs are plenty for one city. Three cities with each two seafood sources grow very fast, allowing for plenty of whipping and fast setllers/workers.
Settling as far away as you suggests immediately can get you into trouble with maintenance, though on monarch that isn't as big of a problem, I imagine. Still, food is king for cities so better settle close.
At some point, you do indeed need to get some cities that aren't just fishing ports, though. I'd suggest one above the cow, instead of east of it. If you have the GLH you obviously want as many coastal cities as possible, but even without it, it is solid. With sailing it saves you the trouble of building a very long road for a while. It also has food in the first ring, and then the copper in the second.
I'd advise against position 2, cities need food sources and a single irrigateble grasland is pretty mediocre as far as food goes.
Also, try and find out if there are sea food sources hidden in the fog to your west, or even of the pointy bit in the east. Food means cities in Civ 4.

On a different note, it seems you are not using beyond the sword. Any particular reason? BtS is generally considered just straight up better and most of these boards seem to play that version, so will advise with that game in mind. Just something to consider.

Anyway, interesting map and good luck.

 

[pigswill]

Its a tricky map but not impossible. As CC mentioned you´ve got two nearby coastal sites for a whipping frenzy (and dominating the fur trade). Site 2 is horrible because of lack of food, site 1 is better, you could also settle on the spices.

Its also worth considering that early rushes aren´t the only way to win a game.

 

[MrGrandiose]

Not a map where I would consider the Great Lighthouse much IMO. Although it sucks to have your Capital away, it looks like such a GP powerhouse that I'm sure you can make it work by favoring a GP economy/science early on.

Changing the location of the capital for a better bureau/cap would be a better investment of hammer. Make sure you get your hands on that Marble early one to power the construction of some GP boosting wonders.

 

[dutchfire]

I might settle 3S2E, and just work the crabs+fur just to get some commerce. Same for 3W (or further west, if there's more seafood there).

 

[Windsor]

With the choice of going for Oracle the natural overall strategy is to bulb yourself all the way to liberalism. With a Phi-leader and that capital, that's very doable. Early goals are Caste+Pacifism for that nice +200% GPP.

Then go to war with Cavalry which is stupidly powerful.

 

[Izuul]

Cuirs, not cavs. Bulbing would run out of steam trying to get MT and Rifling.

 

[elmurcis]

On Vanilla Cavalry was breakout unit.. no need for Rifling if remember correct. BtS made Cavalry less usable because of this "Rifling" request.

 

[Quibblesome]

Am I crazy to suggest that furs is an incredibly strong tile in the early game? You can settle three cities in the local area sharing all that sea food and with the furs have a good enough economy to spring board into actually settling some strategic resources and getting a fancy tech advantage.

Granted the cities are poor in the long term because you're capped at +4 gold yields but it will suffice long enough until you can steal some better cities off someone else. Most of the explored land looks crap. Kill Alex.

 

[Seraiel]

Am I crazy to suggest that furs is an incredibly strong tile in the early game? You can settle three cities in the local area sharing all that sea food and with the furs have a good enough economy to spring board into actually settling some strategic resources and getting a fancy tech advantage.

Granted the cities are poor in the long term because you're capped at +4 gold yields but it will suffice long enough until you can steal some better cities off someone else. Most of the explored land looks crap. Kill Alex.

The problem of those Furs is, that they're on ice, so 0 , therefore, no good tile. The citizen eats 2 so a tile having 0 is actually -2 , 1 can be as much as 3 via the whip so -2 = -6 . If the tile gives +4 , it's a trade of 6 vs. 4 .

Don't know if this answers the question . Nice to see you still being active in the forums btw. Quibblesome .

 

[Quibblesome]

Aye but the +4 commerce makes the start a touch more flexible doesn't it? I mean we could just use the sea food to whip out units instantly or we could use the food to work the commerce to tech into something more interesting. Or is that completely unviable?

To be fair I'm only here as I grabbed the DLC for Civ V and I'm trying to work out if that game is any good yet or not. This four city soft limit though for the "normal" tradition path seems to reduce the strategic possibilities though.

Anyhow, nice to see you too and I'm glad to see people are still posting here!
I may be tempted to finally get better at immortal and even try a deity some time. That or keep trying to find gamey ways to put myself on the HOF at Settler level .

 

[Pangaea]

Furs are a bit awkward like that. Decent enough commerce, but usually crap food situation. So it's a tile I tend to improve (for happiness) but never (or barely ever) work. In this case I suppose it would simply be better to work coast tiles instead. You can keep growing and the commerce is allright.

Food extravaganza aside, this looks a terrible map. So many poor tiles between the capital and your nearest neighbour Alex' crib has floodplains though, so this would definitely be a case where you should strongly consider to move the capital once you have killed off Alex. Having your capital more in the centre of the empire is good for maintenance purposes too.

 

[Quibblesome]

So by that I assume you mean that while you could grow up to happy cap and then switch to working the furs + stagnant at that point it would be more efficient to just whip that extra pop?

 

[Pangaea]

Going just by hunch, I would think so yes. You can still grow while working the lighthoused coast tiles, and with all that food you can whip to your Monty's content too

It looks like a pretty horrible map though.

 

[ConfusedCounsel]

So by that I assume you mean that while you could grow up to happy cap and then switch to working the furs + stagnant at that point it would be more efficient to just whip that extra pop?

Keep in mind that you also need to spend worker turns improving the tiles and perhaps even tech hunting (no idea what Saladin starts with on vanilla). It is quite bad, imo, and certainly not extremely powerful. On some map scripts you get fur on nicer tiles, and those are quite good though, a poor mans gems if you will.

I do not think the start is that bad really. It is a bit slow and you need to start founding cities quite far away quite soon, but non of that is that punishing on lower difficulties: maintenance is distinctly lower and you do not start from behind.
It is quite limiting though.

 

[Windsor]

Cuirs, not cavs. Bulbing would run out of steam trying to get MT and Rifling.

As pointed out by elmurcis, this is vanilla so cavalry doesn't require rifling. There's no cuirassiers in vanilla. You don't get stables in vanilla, but 15 cavalry @Music+gunpowder+Military Tradition is still overpowered.

 

[Pangaea]

Didn't the Cossack have 18 as well? That's absurdly powerful when you don't need Rifling for it!

 

[Windsor]

Didn't the Cossack have 18 as well? That's absurdly powerful when you don't need Rifling for it!

At release they did, but in the current vanilla patch they're nerfed.

 

[Seraiel]

@ quibblesome + Pangaea:

You need to find the 2nd screenshot, then you'll notice, that there's a lot normal land to settle, the capital is only surrounded by ice but it's at the northpole so it gets warmer southwards . Also needed to search for the screen, looking at the start itself only, if it were at the southpole, it would be akward, but if it's not Deity I believe any game is winnable from any possible start. Well, maybe not starts that are seperated by less water-tiles than needed to build ships to cross the water, but as long as you can found 3 acceptable cities, there's always the possibility for a cultural victory.