Up for an expansive game?

[Folket]

PPP
Builds:
The evidence:
Baray -> forge -> market

fact:
worker -> spear -> spear-> wealth

Trojan Horse.
library This city has chop hammers and forests that would allow us to chop out a university here after education.

Awesome Venn:
forge

Amphiobia:
barracks or spear or forge?

Rustenberg:
library -> forge

workers:
Chain farms to Amphibia.
The evidence needs one more farm.
Uzbeck needs more cottages.

Techs:
Tech paper -> education. Bulb education with one GS. Or tech music?
Trade CS, literature, COL and 10 gold for MC, sailing and HBR. CS and literature for MC and 100 gold is probably a better deal.

I would like to build more military. But if we go music I will build more wealth to make sure we can get it fast.

As we are close to education I suggest Rustenberg, Uzbeck, Amphibia, The evidence, fact and either Trojan horse or Awesome Venn as where we build universities.

 

[Doshin]

Did no-one suggest settling Rustenberg 1S?

The HC situation is very dangerous, because those 7 Catapults will damage any Spearmen that we build to the point that Elephants and even Horse Archers can easily wipe them out. I'd estimate we'd need ~8 Longbows, ~3 Spearmen, and ~3 Axemen to fend off his current stack, which is only going to gain more Catapults and Elephants.

The Forests closest to HC should be chopped sooner rather than later, because once we are at war (if we are at war) we will not have access to those hammers.

I would strongly recommend switching Uzbek to build a Settler, and to generate 40H this turn by working the Cow to enable the 2-pop whip on T120. Send the Settler to 1SW / 1S of the Copper:

Spoiler :

...and gift it to HC, for +5 diplo relations. HC plots at Pleased, but he is less of a threat than Monty/Louis/Catherine (et al.) and Izzy should become his target of choice instead of us. At the very least, we can beg 1G once he's Pleased and use the 10 turn window to reinforce.

---

I would drop the slider to 0% for the time being. Going to Music for the GArtist is a low odds gamble at this point (although Music is needed for MT regardless, and it is usually good tech bait). I don't think that we should worry about Oxford now, and Universities can be whipped in AI cities as well. 10 Workers for 6.5 cities is enough when we are still whipping (I ignore the 2.5 ice cities, since they are all but done with improvements). TE should build a Forge before a Baray. Bulbing Education sounds fine, but hang onto the GS for as long as possible, in case we need to start a GA.

 

[Folket]

I have missed what we did with our second GS.

I like the idea to liberate a city to Hyana. It lowers the chance of him declaring on us to a fifth.

If we are not starting oxford, education seems expensive to me. Perhaps we tech something else and doublebulb education?

 

[Folket]

Machinery to get macemen could be an alternative. If we are not starting oxford I suggest music with machinery as a second place choice.

 

[pigswill]

Getting feudalism from Rags seems a reasonable precaution as Doshin pointed out earlier.

Gifting a city to Honey also seems a good idea.

I'm perplexed about something: when chatting with Honey Rags is redded out but Izzy doesn't appear. What does this mean?

I assume first GS built academy and second GS bulbed philosophy.

 

[Folket]

You are talking about declare war right? If that is so it is because they have a peace treaty so we can't ask him to declare war.

 

[Folket]

Guess I won't be playing today. A little slow discussion today, but that is expected during holidays.

@Doshin how is value of cities calculated when trading them?

 

[Doshin]

There is a +4 bonus for "our trade relations have been fair and forthright," and here we will also receive +1 for "you liberated our cities," because the Inca capital is the closest to the Copper and the gift city will have no culture (i.e. it does not belong to us, or the Spanish, or the Vikings).

If either of these bonuses decay with time (and I don't know that they will), it will take a long while, and the shared civic bonus, which is worth +2 relations right now, can reach up to +5 to compensate.

 

[Folket]

*We get +4 for "our trade relations have been fair and forthright" only if the gift is worth more then about 1200 gold. Can we be certain a new city will be worth hat much?

 

[pomthom]

Yep a city gift is +4 fair and forthright (it's the earliest way to get a neighbouring civ to Pleased btw)

Will try to find some time to comment on the PPP today

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

I would also get feud for longbows. Sounds better than relying on spears. But i don t like the idea of warring at all. I would buy 10 turns of peace, tech edu and send izzy back on hc with it...

For the rest it's hard to define priorities without being able to look at the save.

 

[Folket]

At any point in the game? I will search the code to see if I can find anything.

 

[Folket]

We can't bribe izzy while she is at war with Ragnar. Ragnar might peace vassal to Hyana causing Izzy to get into war with him.

I will look for a trade that gives longbows.

So are all agreeing that we should not try for music? Noone considering Machinery for Macemen? I might be able to trade for machinery from Ragnar.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

I don't think that we should worry about Oxford now, and Universities can be whipped in AI cities as well. 10 Workers for 6.5 cities is enough when we are still whipping (I ignore the 2.5 ice cities, since they are all but done with improvements).

Hum adding a bit on this still: to get AI cities without catapults (variant), one needs tech leverage (like cuirassiers against longbows)... and it's not going to happen without unis or big cities running scientists under pacifism.

So while I could live without unis right away, imo we need to start growing cities and improve the land to run scientists. (so peace is really a priority, I hope we can buy it )

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

@Folket: I meant giving edu to rag to stop war the same turn we would give it to Izzy to war HC.

 

[pomthom]

@Folket: I meant giving edu to rag to stop war the same turn we would give it to Izzy to war HC.

Rag is losing the war, if we want to stop it we need to ask Isabella

We could gift Edu to Ragnar so that he bribes HC in, but he might also buy peace from Isabella with it and we've wasted Edu as bargaining chip

 

[Doshin]

*We get +4 for "our trade relations have been fair and forthright" only if the gift is worth more then about 1200 gold. Can we be certain a new city will be worth hat much?

The value of gifts varies according to the number of turns the AI has known you, and decays accordingly. E.g. if you play a Continents map and meet Tokugawa on T150, a gift of ~30G is usually enough to bring his attitude to Pleased from the +4 F&F bonus. It disappears a few turns later, but by that stage you should have opened borders and made some trades.

Anyway, although I am not sure that by a city gifted in 2000 AD would earn a +4 bonus, at c. 100 AD it will almost certainly be enough.

 

[Folket]

From reading the code My guess is that the city is worth about 350 plus 10 for each unit type that require copper. It might get us to +1 or +2 for fair trade.

Edit: There was a *3/2 if he has never own the city. So 525 plus some for copper.

 

[Folket]

The value of gifts varies according to the number of turns the AI has known you, and decays accordingly. E.g. if you play a Continents map and meet Tokugawa on T150, a gift of ~30G is usually enough to bring his attitude to Pleased from the +4 F&F bonus. It disappears a few turns later, but by that stage you should have opened borders and made some trades.

Anyway, although I am not sure that by a city gifted in 2000 AD would earn a +4 bonus, at c. 100 AD it will almost certainly be enough.

We need 16 gold for each turn we have know him. Which I randomly guessed is 75 turns. I do not know the exact turn we meet him.

 

[pomthom]

I'm a bit surprised by your numbers Folket

I'm almost positive a city gift would be insta +4 F&F