Upward Pressure On Wages

[Senethro]

Dunno, maybe read the sentence you answer to, it's spelled out in it.

No it isn't.

Yes yes, everything that doesn't conform to your preconceptions is racist, I know. Buzzwords are useful to emotionally blackmail people into conformity, nothing new here.

You whine a bunch about the culture war, blinkered ideologues etc, while what you type follows the format. My side and your side. You're not above it while you follow the script exactly.

 

[Lexicus]

You know, I think that one reason why our ruling elites chose not to even attempt to contain the virus was fear that if they closed borders for any reasonable amount of time people would notice wages rising and figure out how they were being screwed.

The United States has been excluding poor immigrants by the hundreds of thousands on the basis of pandemic security while allowing its own citizens returning from abroad to come into the country with no quarantines or even basic checks for covid symptoms or anything like that.

If anything, the reason the ruling elites chose not to impose quarantines at the borders is because that would make going on their vacations much harder.

Incidentally, my view is that closing borders may have some marginal upward pressure on wages for certain segments of the labor market. Labor market segmentation is a part of this discussion that never seems to come up in this discussion. In the US at least we have seen during Covid that restricting the supply of immigrant workers means that a lot of work simply went undone, rather than that native workers did it for higher wages.

Dunno, maybe read the sentence you answer to, it's spelled out in it.

So can you provide a concrete plan of action for, say, France? How does this work out in the real world? Deport how many immigrants already in France, or just close the borders and don't allow anyone else into France? How quickly should the lot of the French working class improve if these changes are made?

 

[Akka]

No it isn't.

Learn to read basic english then.

You whine a bunch about the culture war, blinkered ideologues etc, while what you type follows the format. My side and your side. You're not above it while you follow the script exactly.

Your entire slippery-slope pseudo-argument basically amount to shouting "RACISM" at any sort of in-group/out-group (which, BTW, would mean that putting your family first is also RACISM!!!, which kind of show just how terrible of a fallacy it is) and then claiming I'm being a blinkered ideologue. Sorry if I don't feel we're on even footing here.

So can you provide a concrete plan of action for, say, France? How does this work out in the real world? Deport how many immigrants already in France, or just close the borders and don't allow anyone else into France? How quickly should the lot of the French working class improve if these changes are made?

I've already provided answers to these questions in another thread, and I think it was even directly to you (though I might be wrong on this point).

 

[Senethro]

Learn to read basic english then.

Your entire slippery-slope pseudo-argument basically amount to shouting "RACISM" at anything that disagrees with you, and then claiming I'm being a blinkered ideologue. Sorry if I don't feel we're on even footing here.

Really? You tell me to learn to read, then misread me in your very next line? Is this a bit you're doing?

 

[Akka]

Really? You tell me to learn to read, then misread me in your very next line? Is this a bit you're doing?

You argue that the very concept of favouring in-group toward out-group is a cop-out because it's possible to redefine the borders of said groups at will (so "slippery slope") and ends up saying my argument with this in-group/out-group is a disguised attempt at treating people with different ethnicities with double-standard (implying "racism", and confirming it with the "I'm not racist but").

So yeah, that's literally using a slippery-slope fallacy and ending up with "RACISM !!!". So no, I've not misread you.
Not to add your previous post openly saying that being against immigration is "RACISM" anyway.

 

[Lexicus]

I've already provided answers to these questions in another thread, and I think it was even directly to you (though I might be wrong on this point).

As if you haven't already said everything you're saying in this thread in plenty of other threads?

Anyway, good luck. I'm sure that national(ist) socialism, privileging one particular ethnic group over others, hasn't been tried before with disastrous results. Vote Le Pen to help the French working class!

 

[Akka]

As if you haven't already said everything you're saying in this thread in plenty of other threads?

Anyway, good luck. I'm sure that trying to implement national(ist) socialism, privileging one particular ethnic group over others, hasn't been tried before with disastrous results.

Ah yeah "RACIISSSSSM" (plus "NAZIIIIIS" as a bonus, we did need a good ol' Goldwin, long time no see), how original. I think I've seen this one already, but I can't exactly put my finger where.

I'm in good company when it comes to repeating things, at least. Though I think I've a bit more variety than spamming endlessly the same buzzword for anything and everything.

 

[Senethro]

As a dangerous piece of sincerity here, I truly think Euro/US needs to find a way to manage immigration prior to the first big climate change caused famine, or else its going to be machine gun nests across the mexican border and naval ships in the mediterranean firing on any unscheduled vessel.

We desperately need to start prototyping solutions now or else we will be very unprepared for the Big One.

 

[Lexicus]

Though I think I've a bit more variety than spamming endlessly the same buzzword for anything and everything.

Sadly, no. Your posts consist mostly of quoting me or Senethro and typing RACISM in all caps, then invoking tropes (such as GODWIN and SLIPPERY SLOPE) that at this point amount to thought-terminating cliches.

As a dangerous piece of sincerity here, I truly think Euro/US needs to find a way to manage immigration prior to the first big climate change caused famine, or else its going to be machine gun nests across the mexican border and naval ships in the mediterranean firing on any unscheduled vessel.

Strikes me that this has basically already happened given that there is a reasonable argument that the Syrian Civil War was, at least in part, triggered by climate change. And it seems pretty clear that machine gun nests on the Mexican border and sinking ships in the Mediterannean is exactly the direction we're heading in.

 

[Akka]

Sadly, no. Your posts consist mostly of quoting me or Senethro and typing RACISM in all caps, then invoking tropes (such as GODWIN and SLIPPERY SLOPE) that at this point amount to thought-terminating cliches.

Well, not my fault if your own arguments use fallacies and always end up with calling the other guy racist/nazi. That alone should send warning about their validity, but instead you just attempt a reversal. Way to go.

 

[Lexicus]

Well, not my fault if your own arguments use fallacies and always end up with calling the other guy racist/nazi. That alone should send warning about their validity, but instead you just attempt a reversal. Way to go.

STRAWMAN! nice job using a FALLACY

 

[Senethro]

Its not a fallacy to call racist a political action that directly or indirectly, intentionally or intentionally, discriminates negatively against a (quasi)ethnic group(s). Its just using the word as it is commonly understood.

Come on man, back on the first page you were all -snarl-NEOLIBS! this, and TINA that. Which is cool. But unfortunately the grand depth of your vision is to mess with immigrants so as to nudge the labour market. A bit underwhelming, isn't it? Its pretty much the centre-rights weakest, floppiest policy that tries to look like its addressing an issue when in fact its purely optics with no intention of producing a functional outcome. Well, thats not fair. Its successful at generating soundbites and courting crypto-racists.

 

[Lexicus]

Come on man, back on the first page you were all -snarl-NEOLIBS! this, and TINA that.

It is sort of funny when the same people declaring neoliberalism and TINA to be terrible things are also positing a world in which there's no alternative to the basic conditions of capitalist scarcity, it's just that the meaningful competition for the spoils should be between national or ethnic groups rather than between classes.

 

[Zardnaar]

This is also a problem here in Australia. .

The Labour shortages?

I know Aussies are poaching things like nurses here as they get paid something like double.

 

[Zardnaar]

It is sort of funny when the same people declaring neoliberalism and TINA to be terrible things are also positing a world in which there's no alternative to the basic conditions of capitalist scarcity, it's just that the meaningful competition for the spoils should be between national or ethnic groups rather than between classes.

That's the way the world works.

If you don't have citizenship it's very very hard to enter NZ atm even harder to enter Australia (with citizenship).

Citizenship has been a thing since Roman times.

Think I can enter Australia easier than an Australian stick in say Europe.

 

[Joij21]

Additionally, the problem with favouring an in-group over an out-group in order to achieve better outcomes for the in-group, is that its a methodology that is limitless.

I don't see that as a problem. If a methodology is limitless then that means unlimited power!!

Unlimited power should never be shunned, for unlimited power means doing all the things in life that you never could before. If favoring in-groups over out-groups accomplishes this then so be it.

As a dangerous piece of sincerity here, I truly think Euro/US needs to find a way to manage immigration prior to the first big climate change caused famine, or else its going to be machine gun nests across the mexican border and naval ships in the mediterranean firing on any unscheduled vessel.

What solution? Like coming up with international agreements in order to redistribute the migrants via quotas to various first world nations? Nah, no one wants them period.

 

[innonimatu]

Incidentally, my view is that closing borders may have some marginal upward pressure on wages for certain segments of the labor market. Labor market segmentation is a part of this discussion that never seems to come up in this discussion. In the US at least we have seen during Covid that restricting the supply of immigrant workers means that a lot of work simply went undone, rather than that native workers did it for higher wages.

That is true, but it is also very noticeable that wage pressure has been growing. Basically million of american went on an unorganized strike by refusing to return to very low-wage jobs. And the only way those jobs will be again staffed - the necessary ones will have to be staffed - is by paying more. Wages are rising.

Unfortunately it's likely that people in government there are looking at Reagan and Volcker's playbook even now and considering deliberately causing a recession to push down on those uppity workers.

 

[Senethro]

I don't see that as a problem. If a methodology is limitless then that means unlimited power!!

Unlimited power should never be shunned, for unlimited power means doing all the things in life that you never could before. If favoring in-groups over out-groups accomplishes this then so be it.

What solution? Like coming up with international agreements in order to redistribute the migrants via quotas to various first world nations? Nah, no one wants them period.

Haha, such jokes

But really you're nasty as hell.

 

[Akka]

Its not a fallacy to call racist a political action that directly or indirectly, intentionally or intentionally, discriminates negatively against a (quasi)ethnic group(s). Its just using the word as it is commonly understood.

Yeah no, that's actually neither how it's defined nor how it's commonly understood, that's just precisely the insane troll logic that leads you to call everything "racist".

Come on man, back on the first page you were all -snarl-NEOLIBS! this, and TINA that. Which is cool. But unfortunately the grand depth of your vision is to mess with immigrants so as to nudge the labour market. A bit underwhelming, isn't it?

Ah yeah sure, because I oppose unrestricted immigration, it means that it's all I have to my "vision" and of course it's only about "messing with immigrants".

Its pretty much the centre-rights weakest, floppiest policy that tries to look like its addressing an issue when in fact its purely optics with no intention of producing a functional outcome. Well, thats not fair. Its successful at generating soundbites and courting crypto-racists.

Nah, the centre-right is actually full on happy with immigration, it keeps labor cost low. Neo-liberals pushing for more globalization enjoy race to the bottom the most.
And it's funny, because the obsession with "everything is RACIST" kinda perfectly fits the description you made about "optics without functional outcome". Pot, meet kettle.

 

[Senethro]

Yeah no, that's actually neither how it's defined nor how it's commonly understood, that's just precisely the insane troll logic that leads you to call everything "racist".

Ah yeah sure, because I oppose unrestricted immigration, it means that it's all I have to my "vision" and of course it's only about "messing with immigrants".

Nah, the centre-right is actually full on happy with immigration, it keeps labor cost low. Neo-liberals pushing for more globalization enjoy race to the bottom the most.
And it's funny, because the obsession with "everything is RACIST" kinda perfectly fits the description you made about "optics without functional outcome". Pot, meet kettle.

I'd say social justice is an outcome that I find functional.

But the fact that you think that anti-racism efforts are insincere, that use troll logic and only seek optics without functional outcome is concerning. Do you think they have an ulterior motive or what?