v 26, and above ALL Bugs/Crashes reporting thread

[JosEPh_II]

Well it Freaked me out!

I don't remember ever seeing this delay before. Maybe I was busy the other times and not ready to get started on a new Tribe right away?

Well it got one thing accomplished, it raised my blood pressure.

JosEPh <sigh>

 

[shenryyr]

i usually notice it when a Hunter dies and I want a new one to start building right away, but simply cannot

 

[T C]

This save loads and plays end-turn through to the next turn fine for me. However, I do have a slight tweak to tidy up some of the code changes I made for the last turn hang issue a day or so ago, so I guess it's possible that has fixed something. I'll be pushing the tidy-up to SVN shortly anyway since I've played several hundred turns on it now, and am fairly confident in it, so try with that once I do and let me know if it solves your issue please.

I've just tested it now and you seem to have fixed it with your latest changes.

Thanks a lot. Great work as always.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Completed rock gather and then Stone tools. After researching Chopping or Scraping (forgot which) rock gatherer shows back up in the build list. See screen shot.

Seems we have 2 techs that gives rock gatherer? So we have the old repeat build problem showing up again.

SVN 3914. New game started this morning.

JosEPh

Very weird! That should not be happening. You sure the Rock Gatherer did not get hit by a Hurricane or Burned down in a Fire Event?

When did gatherers lose the ability to gather grain on grassland tiles Before you even reach Tribalism?

What's going on with the xml files?

JosEPh

They should be able to.

You sure your files are not corrupted or something? You have the weirdest errors! Thanks for reporting though.

 

[shenryyr]

@SO

I think there may be some other ones hidden away, http://i46.tinypic.com/2z3xgza.jpg

 

[AIAndy]

i usually notice it when a Hunter dies and I want a new one to start building right away, but simply cannot

That is probably a caching issue. Depending on which cache is the problem, you could try activating/deactivating some unit filter to invalidate the display cache for a city.

 

[shenryyr]

That is probably a caching issue. Depending on which cache is the problem, you could try activating/deactivating some unit filter to invalidate the display cache for a city.

was that english?

 

[Hydromancerx]

Why at Tribalism is Tribes now a 1 time National unit?

This is just another blatant attempt to curb expansionist play style and is uncalled for.

Please stop doing this.

JosEPh

This has been this way since Prehistoric NWA. It is suppose to be this way to prevent over expansion before sedentary lifestyle. It also si what sets apart a Tribe from a Settler. Tribes have a limit of one at a time while a Settler can be made multiple at a time.

In short its suppose to be that way. To show the level of technology you have. Without the limit it would just be the same as a Settler.

The fact you did not notice this by now worries me.

 

[ls612]

This has been this way since Prehistoric NWA. It is suppose to be this way to prevent over expansion before sedentary lifestyle. It also si what sets apart a Tribe from a Settler. Tribes have a limit of one at a time while a Settler can be made multiple at a time.

In short its suppose to be that way. To show the level of technology you have. Without the limit it would just be the same as a Settler.

The fact you did not notice this by now worries me.

Isn't that slightly redundant with City Limits? Most of us wouldn't notice the limit due to only having 3 cities pre-tribalism, but since Joe doesn't use CL, he (and others not using City Limits) would be inordinately impacted by this. I agree with him, just because it's been this way for 4 years doesn't mean we can't change it.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Isn't that slightly redundant with City Limits? Most of us wouldn't notice the limit due to only having 3 cities pre-tribalism, but since Joe doesn't use CL, he (and others not using City Limits) would be inordinately impacted by this. I agree with him, just because it's been this way for 4 years doesn't mean we can't change it.

City Limits is an optional setting. Tribes are not and still need to be in place if the player has city limits off. Also it was put in place long before the city limits, yet there was enough support to have city limits in addition to that.

In games one can put off sedentary lifestyle for whatever reason. This window where you have Tribes but not Settlers is where the national unit limit is important. The feeling of getting Sedentary Lifestyle is 2 fold...

1. You can get settlers who have no unit limit.

2. You can get Workers that do not get used up on improvements.

These milestones are important to the feeling of the mod. While it was not my idea for Tribes or the national limit I can see the amazing value of having such a unit and not just a Settler at Tribalism.

However set it up this way is in my option very cleaver in how to simulate the transition from Tribe to City. Same goes for the fact that you have no Settler type units when you start the game and must stick to one city at first. Genius!

In short I very much want to keep the Tribe the way it is. Otherwise its just a different looking Settler.

 

[strategyonly]

That is probably a caching issue. Depending on which cache is the problem, you could try activating/deactivating some unit filter to invalidate the display cache for a city.

This has happened for about 2 years now. But as far as i can see its only the Capital.

 

[shenryyr]

@SO

I think there may be some other ones hidden away, http://i46.tinypic.com/2z3xgza.jpg

and another, http://i48.tinypic.com/ets67p.jpg

edit: and another http://i45.tinypic.com/2m3frl3.jpg

 

[JosEPh_II]

This has been this way since Prehistoric NWA. It is suppose to be this way to prevent over expansion before sedentary lifestyle. It also si what sets apart a Tribe from a Settler. Tribes have a limit of one at a time while a Settler can be made multiple at a time.

In short its suppose to be that way. To show the level of technology you have. Without the limit it would just be the same as a Settler.

The fact you did not notice this by now worries me.

No you're misunderstanding me. I'm fully aware that you only get 1 tribe at a time and you can't build another until After you've built a new city with the current one. That was never a problem. That part is fine.

The Problem was that it was Not available in the Capital's build list the next turn to get another one started. But on the 2nd turn after the new city was built it came back into the list. I freaked out when it was Not there on the very next turn and posted.

I had just never noticed this 1 turn delay before. Generally because I was busy prepping for the next city by building a mil unit 1st as an escort.

I have to know something, do I speak a foreign language when I post? Why is it no one seems to understand what I'm saying?

@Hydro,
You Never forget anything? Or never make a snap judgement? Never get angry?

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

I got what you were saying there Joe. You were confused by not being able to build another one as soon as you'd used the one you had. I had the same issue with Farmers a while back.

What AIAndy was trying to say was actually quite interesting. He suggested that the problem could've been due to the build filters not yet having had cause to update based on the fact that you now no longer had that national unit. Therefore, he surmised, you could possibly get the system to give you the option to build that unit the same round IF you changed the filters you were using to ANY other setting and then changed them back, getting the build list to refresh. However, I don't think its at that level because this was an issue before his filter lists came into effect. Now, that said, it still might work to get it to refresh its options effectively now. So its worth trying. But if it doesn't work I won't be surprised if the 'filter' in question here, (the national unit count filter) is taking place at a deeper level that would actually require a more major adjustment to get it to refresh (like going to the next turn or doing a forced recalculation.)

I really don't see why it'd only be affecting the capital though... that's just... weird if that's true. However, it might have something to do with the city you BUILT that national unit from somehow.

 

[God-Emperor]

Well, as long as shenryyr is pointing out sound issues here are a few (so to speak) from my notes. Some of these may have already been fixed.

The things that say "does not exist" are used by something. They can either be added with appropriate definitions or the reference to them can be changed. (I report a few for the file that uses them, the rest for the file that would have the definition if it existed.)

Modules\Custom_Civilizations\Canada\Pearson\Pearson_CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.xml
- AS2D_DIPLO_LINCOLN_LATE_LP does not exist (I suggest using AS2D_DIPLO_LINCOLN_LATE)

Modules\Custom_Civilizations\Canada\Trudeau\Trudeau_CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.xml
- AS2D_DIPLO_CANADA_LATE_INTRO does not exist (perhaps use AS2D_DIPLO_CANADA_PEACE_INDUSTRIAL_INTRO)
- AS2D_DIPLO_CANADA_EARLY does not exist (perhaps use AS2D_DIPLO_CANADA_PEACE_ANCIENT)
- AS2D_DIPLO_CANADA_LATE_LP does not exist (perhaps use AS2D_DIPLO_CANADA_PEACE_INDUSTRIAL)
- AS2D_DIPLO_CANADA_LATE appears in this file twice but does not exist (perhaps use AS2D_DIPLO_CANADA_PEACE_FUTURE)

Audio2DScripts.xml
- AS2D_DIPLO_CANADA_PEACE_ANCIENT appears twice
- AS2D_DIPLO_CANADA_PEACE_ANCIENT_INTRO appears twice
- there is a block of these that are duplicated, with the first two in the first occurrence moved to being the last two in the second block:
first block is from the first occurance of AS2D_BUILD_FESTIVAL to AS2D_BUILD_WTC, with the full set being: AS2D_BUILD_FESTIVAL, AS2D_BUILD_DIVINE_MONUMENT, AS2D_BUILD_BOLSHOI, AS2D_BUILD_CHEOMSEONGDAE, AS2D_BUILD_NEUSCHWANSTEIN, AS2D_BUILD_PORCELAIN_TOWER, AS2D_BUILD_TERRA_COTTA, AS2D_BUILD_WTC
this block is then are followed by this set of duplicates: AS2D_BUILD_BOLSHOI, AS2D_BUILD_CHEOMSEONGDA, AS2D_BUILD_NEUSCHWANSTEIN, AS2D_BUILD_PORCELAIN_TOWER, AS2D_BUILD_TERRA_COTTA, AS2D_BUILD_WTC, AS2D_BUILD_FESTIVAL, AS2D_BUILD_DIVINE_MONUMENT
- AS2D_UNIT_BUILD_DRUID_MISSIONARY does not exist (it should point at SND_BUILD_DRUID_MISSIONARY, which has a typo in it as mentioned below)
- AS2D_TECH_TRIBALISM does not exist
- AS2D_TECH_SPEARFISHING does not exist
- AS2D_TECH_MP_SPEARFISHING does not exist (could point it at AS2D_TECH_SPEARFISHING if that existed)
- AS2D_BUILD_PET_SHOP does not exist
- AS2D_TECH_SLASH_AND_BURN does not exist
- AS2D_BUILD_CAVE_PAINTING does not exist
- AS2D_BUILD_GENERIC does not exist (I know this is one that shenryyr reported and SO just fixed)

Audio3DScripts.xml
- AS3D_UN_DRUID_MISSIONARY_ACTIVATE does not exist (should point to SND_DRUID_MISSIONARY_ACTIVATE, based on the common naming practice, but that
does not actually exist unless you also create it)
- AS3D_UN_FOOT_UNIT_LOW2 does not exist (referenced in at least a couple of .kf files, could just duplicate the AS3D_UN_FOOT_UNIT_LOW entry for it)

AudioDefines.xml
- has a set of bad definitions for "driud" that are not used (there are also definitions for the "druid" versions): SND_BUILD_DRIUD, SND_BUILD_DRIUD_MOVIE, SND_BUILD_DRIUD_MISSIONARY, SND_DRIUD_MISSIONARY_ACTIVATE
- there is a typo in the file specification for SND_BUILD_DRUID_MOVIE, there is a missing "/"
- there is also a similar typo in the file spec for SND_BUILD_DRUID
- ditto for SND_BUILD_DRUID_MISSIONARY, but this one is never hit since this SND definition is not used by any AS2D entry (unless you add it, as per the mention above)
- SND_DRUID_MISSIONARY_ACTIVATE does not exist (should probably exist and point
to Sounds/Religions/Druid2)

There are a bunch of definitions in AudioDefines.xml where it tries to use sounds that are not in C2C but were in RoM:AND. In particular, these appear to be in various sub-folders of RoM:AND's Assets\Sounds\Afforess folder. It is possible, and probably, that some of these are not actually used. It is also probable that at least some of them have been copied into other sound folders. But there are SND_* definitions which look for the files in these folders that do not exist in C2C:

Spoiler :

		Sounds/Afforess/Airfield
		Sounds/Afforess/Aquarium
		Sounds/Afforess/ArcheryRange
		Sounds/Afforess/ArtGallery
		Sounds/Afforess/Barber
		Sounds/Afforess/ControlTower
		Sounds/Afforess/DramaSchool
		Sounds/Afforess/FencingSchool
		Sounds/Afforess/FightingPit
		Sounds/Afforess/FireBrigades
		Sounds/Afforess/FireDock
		Sounds/Afforess/FireStation
		Sounds/Afforess/Garbage
		Sounds/Afforess/Garden
		Sounds/Afforess/Ice
		Sounds/Afforess/Jail
		Sounds/Afforess/Jousting
		Sounds/Afforess/MissileLab
		Sounds/Afforess/spaceway
		Sounds/Afforess/waveracing
		Sounds/Afforess/ski_resort
		Sounds/Afforess/speedway
		Sounds/Afforess/zoo
		Sounds/Afforess/Apiary
		Sounds/Afforess/Arboretum
		Sounds/Afforess/Bandit Hideout
		Sounds/Afforess/Community Garden
		Sounds/Afforess/Fairgrounds
		Sounds/Afforess/Farm Supply
		Sounds/Afforess/Greenhouse
		Sounds/Afforess/Hydroponics
		Sounds/Afforess/Warehouse
		Sounds/Afforess/Cryogenic_prison
		Sounds/Afforess/Public_pool
		Sounds/Afforess/Saloon
		Sounds/Afforess/storm

- SND_BUILD_HANGGARDENS points to a non-existent file; note that this has been the case since vanilla Civ4 - I have no idea why this is not an issue with vanilla/Warlords/BtS (well, I suppose it could be, but I never noticed it) but does show up in the audio.log file for C2C for the 4 buildings using AS2D_BUILD_HANGGARDENS (which points to this).

So there you go. I noticed all (well, almost all) of this from occasionally looking into audio.log and then tracking down the issues listed.

 

[AIAndy]

I got what you were saying there Joe. You were confused by not being able to build another one as soon as you'd used the one you had. I had the same issue with Farmers a while back.

What AIAndy was trying to say was actually quite interesting. He suggested that the problem could've been due to the build filters not yet having had cause to update based on the fact that you now no longer had that national unit. Therefore, he surmised, you could possibly get the system to give you the option to build that unit the same round IF you changed the filters you were using to ANY other setting and then changed them back, getting the build list to refresh. However, I don't think its at that level because this was an issue before his filter lists came into effect. Now, that said, it still might work to get it to refresh its options effectively now. So its worth trying. But if it doesn't work I won't be surprised if the 'filter' in question here, (the national unit count filter) is taking place at a deeper level that would actually require a more major adjustment to get it to refresh (like going to the next turn or doing a forced recalculation.)

Indeed, there are multiple caches (temporary storages of computation results) and that includes a cache that stores what a city can build currently (which is invalidated in some situations and at least once a turn) and one that stores what is currently displayed given different filtering and sorting in the city screen.
If it is the filter/sort one, then clicking on any of the filter buttons will cause a recalculation of it. But likely it is the deeper one that stores what a city can construct/train.

In general that is fixable by some code that runs when a unit is killed and invalidates the cache entry if it is a unit with a national limit.

 

[AIAndy]

I have to know something, do I speak a foreign language when I post? Why is it no one seems to understand what I'm saying?

@Hydro,
You Never forget anything? Or never make a snap judgement? Never get angry?

JosEPh

The problem is that you get angry all the time. Whenever you encounter a bug, it is not a bug but Hydro going out of his way to destroy everything you like about C2C.
Aggressive dissing of the modders will get you nowhere. Besides it is very impolite to deal with people that way that have gifted such a large amount of their time to the community, which means to players like you.
Well-founded feedback and bug reports are always welcome on the other hand.

 

[strategyonly]

Well, as long as shenryyr is pointing out sound issues here are a few (so to speak) from my notes. Some of these may have already been fixed.
So there you go. I noticed all (well, almost all) of this from occasionally looking into audio.log and then tracking down the issues listed.

Thx ever sooo soo much for this, i thought i had done alot of that already, but, well anyways, thx a million again, i will do this guys, and again thx God-Emperor

 

[JosEPh_II]

@AIAndy,
Has it occurred to anyone why I might be "getting angry all the time"?

Would you get upset if you spent alot of your time on a project only to have the way you like to use it constantly being curtailed, told it's bad? Constantly having your style of play being called a derogatory name (yes calling a style of play city spamming is derogatory). When you point out something that is flawed or just plain wrong you get slammed for it. (Even you did that.)

One of my character flaws is that I get passionate when I debate. So since it's in written form I come across as "angry". It's who I am and really hard to change after 60 years. Maybe you all forget that I'm not a generation x person. And my belief system is much longer developed than the majority of posters/modders here. I'm aware that how I feel each day affects how I post. And if I'm not having a "ggod" day it shows. I'm also very stubborn when I believe in something. I believe in C2C being the best Mod ever produced for BtS. I'm also not afraid to have the dissenting voice either, especially if I believe it will keep the option of Choice open.

As for aggressive dissing of the modders, I would hope that Hydro in particular knows me better than that. I've known Hydro and Hydro's work from back when AND was a new modmod. Long before many of the current team was even on these boards. As for me I feel we(Hydro and I) have a relationship similar to what DH has with Hydro. We're not afraid to say "hey wait a minute". With some of you other team members though this is obliviously not the case. And egg shells must be walked on when discussing items with you all.

I also know you don't like me AIAndy and I can live with that. I'd rather it wasn't so. But I know you resent me for how and what I believe in. This is why I generally do not address you directly anymore specifically. I know it will cause strife.

Here it is 4:47am and I'm posting because I can't sleep. Generally not a good thing.

JosEPh

 

[AIAndy]

@AIAndy,
Has it occurred to anyone why I might be "getting angry all the time"?

Yes, but that is no excuse to be impolite, not in a teenager and definitely not in an old man.

Would you get upset if you spent alot of your time on a project only to have the way you like to use it constantly being curtailed, told it's bad? Constantly having your style of play being called a derogatory name (yes calling a style of play city spamming is derogatory). When you point out something that is flawed or just plain wrong you get slammed for it. (Even you did that.)

Well, as ye sow, so shall ye reap. It is all a matter of how you report something.

Infinite City Spam (ICS) has always been the name of the strategy to place as many cities as you can. It is not meant derogatory in this case and has always been a major strategy in Civ games and usually pretty much the only valid one. The problem is that it is a positive feedback loop to the point that it results in exponential growth.
So a part of the balance of Civ games was to make it a possible strategy but not the only valid one. In vanilla Civ4 you need to pay more maintenance in all cities for each additional city you build. That means especially if you already have a lot of cities, the new city is at first an investment with negative income and it takes some time and buildings before you get a net benefit.
Rev adds another price you pay for more cities, which is decreased stability.
In C2C we have a prehistoric era that is supposed to be slow growth and fewer cities (we don't want the major land grab to be finished already by the end of it as that would be completely unrealistic and weaken the later eras). So we also introduced a limit based on civic and happiness. You can still expand a lot, but it comes at the price of building more happiness buildings. But it is an option which you can take or not.

One of my character flaws is that I get passionate when I debate. So since it's in written form I come across as "angry". It's who I am and really hard to change after 60 years. Maybe you all forget that I'm not a generation x person. And my belief system is much longer developed than the majority of posters/modders here. I'm aware that how I feel each day affects how I post. And if I'm not having a "ggod" day it shows. I'm also very stubborn when I believe in something. I believe in C2C being the best Mod ever produced for BtS. I'm also not afraid to have the dissenting voice either, especially if I believe it will keep the option of Choice open.

It is fine to voice opposing oppinions. But keep them somewhat calm (that is the big advantage of writing that even if you feel completely upset, it can be kept from the others to a degree at the start).

As for aggressive dissing of the modders, I would hope that Hydro in particular knows me better than that. I've known Hydro and Hydro's work from back when AND was a new modmod. Long before many of the current team was even on these boards. As for me I feel we(Hydro and I) have a relationship similar to what DH has with Hydro. We're not afraid to say "hey wait a minute". With some of you other team members though this is obliviously not the case. And egg shells must be walked on when discussing items with you all.

Just remember that he is NOT out to get you and destroy all you like in C2C.

I also know you don't like me AIAndy and I can live with that. I'd rather it wasn't so. But I know you resent me for how and what I believe in. This is why I generally do not address you directly anymore specifically. I know it will cause strife.

Resent you? No, I don't think so.