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[Ahriman]

I'm getting a CTD in between turns.

Save attached.

 

[Pfeffersack]

I think EB has its place - it's your choice if the taerrain is bad and then it is powerful enough for the reasons Lord Tirian mentioned. Plus that there are no food revolts, you are free to choose any religion and you are safe from the Pholus Mutagen without having to completely ruin your relations with the hybrid-followers.


Defending sea bases and there improvements is indeed more difficult and bunkers are a must have - but I can manage it usually, though ship spamming is sometimes necessary (especially if you play as Terraformer, because then you can't fill your
rows with captured native life).

However, I think raging native life on sea is a great problem for the AI - I always wondered why the AIs often don't expand oversea and almost never build seabases. My current game is a drastic example of this - I had turned SLP off and the start location generator put three factions on a mid-sized island...the AI didn't get very far with their expansion after almost 250 and I'm now pretty sure that it isn't the AI not priorizing seabses or focussing on far islands...if you look especially on the harbour bases of Deidre, Morgan and Lal you will find both a couple of unused land and sea colony pods. My impression is that the AI is just too afraid of all the native life on sea (or they lack the means or coordination to put up proper escorts).

Another hint on that this could be the reason is the fact that the Dune Wars Mod suffered from a similar issue, which prevented the AI from oversea (or better: overdesert ) expansion - just because they were too afraid of all the sandworms and -storms. Sadly I wasn't able to loacte the thread with the full-length discussion about that topic again, but it is briefly mentioned in this thread (from post #64 on):

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=325981&page=2

 

[GASherbert]

Now that you say I remember Nonetheless, I would prefer for the sake of consistency that the order of choosing has no impact here (= choosing "Light" as 2nd would remove any special ability learned before)

That doesn't sound like a good idea to me. It should be possible to select only a single special ability for a unit, and the current implementation allows that. Being forced to chose either multiple special abilities or no special abilities would be annoying.

 

[Lord Tirian]

Defending sea bases and there improvements is indeed more difficult and bunkers are a must have - but I can manage it usually, though ship spamming is sometimes necessary...

Oh, there's another thing - you may want to use Choppers/Rotors to fend off naval attacks - that addition is pretty new, so I haven't fully absorbed it yet - but it might prove helpful, since it's a bit easier on production as they double as defenders on land as well (i.e. less need to build a dedicated navy).

And, by the way, there's an oddity I've seen in the current game I'm playing: Mindworms are invading Miriam - they took two bases already... and one is building a Children's Creche! Is that like farming? (more seriously... could it be made possible that native life that's not under player control can't invade bases? Instead, what if they enter a base, they destroy themselves, reduce the pop count by one (destroying pop 1 cities) and also raise the flowering counter - might be a nice way of jacking up the counter a bit more)

Cheers, LT.

 

[Ahriman]

I've used these tricks (forts, choppers, cheap navy swarms etc) to try to fend off the naval native life, but the point is that the reward simply isn't worth it. There are never really a shortage of tiles to put windmills on, so tile yields on land always seem to exceed those on sea, and it is much easier to protect these from native life.

Maybe barbarian Isles and SeaLurk could all have a promotion that reduces their movement rate? Its the fact that a bunch of them can easily spawn, move long distances to attack any naval units that leave port and rapidly pillage all your stuff that makes them so annoying.

 

[Pfeffersack]

That doesn't sound like a good idea to me. It should be possible to select only a single special ability for a unit, and the current implementation allows that. Being forced to chose either multiple special abilities or no special abilities would be annoying.

Thinking about it again, I agree with you - the "cheat" I mentioned isn't one probably, assuming that the maintenance fee reduction both gets applied to base and special ability cost. You will still pay something for the 1st special ability, though not as much as for the 2nd - but that's ok and even fully in line with SMAC of diminshing returns in regard, when you try to create "super-units".

And, by the way, there's an oddity I've seen in the current game I'm playing: Mindworms are invading Miriam - they took two bases already... and one is building a Children's Creche! Is that like farming? (more seriously... could it be made possible that native life that's not under player control can't invade bases? Instead, what if they enter a base, they destroy themselves, reduce the pop count by one (destroying pop 1 cities) and also raise the flowering counter - might be a nice way of jacking up the counter a bit more)

Native life building a Children's Creche is almost worth a Screenshot of the Day

Builds ago they even built human units. I guess it would be no problem to restrict that even more to native life units only. But as you said, some kind of conversion mechanism lowering population would make more sense (another way to do it would be still allowing native life capturing the base and give it the ability to draft each turn one mindworm until pop reaches 0, which would mean that the base is lost - that would lay some pressure on the player to recapture the base ASAP)

 

[Maniac]

(though I agree that the enclosed route is a bit bland, as I've noted earlier).

I'd like to relate the Enclosed Biosphere theme to being hidden and invisibility somehow. Not sure though. Perhaps the Enclosed Biosphere civic could, with some tech, give the Stealth special ability for free to all submarines built.

My problem with navy is (that's why I pitched some ideas to Maniac earlier) is that native life is brutal on the seas (way more than on land) - since Psi combat on seas is 3-3, it means that you only win half the battles.

Hypnotic Trance and ranged strikes should improve the odds in your favour both on attack and defense.

I'm getting a CTD in between turns.

I released a patch to fix this. See Download thread.

safe from the Pholus Mutagen

Safe from the Pholus Mutagen?

However, I think raging native life on sea is a great problem for the AI

I should have a look at the sea transport AI. I'm not convinced right now without further research that native life activity is the reason for potentially reduced overseas exploration. Perhaps the reason why the AI may seem to expand less is simply that they have less land to expand to and build up their economy before needing to go overseas. In Planetfall the factions are placed closer to each other. And Dune uses an Archipelago map IIUC. Does the Planetfall AI expand less than the vanilla AI on an Archipelago map?

I've used these tricks (forts, choppers, cheap navy swarms etc) to try to fend off the naval native life, but the point is that the reward simply isn't worth it.

A tip I haven't seen mentioned yet. Plant Kelp instead of improvements on places that could be threatened by native life.


Anyway, even though myself I have never felt overwhelmed by naval native life, I have in past thought of some ideas which could make life easier for the AI:

1) naval units can only pillage once per turn, regardless of movement points
and
2) Dropships (and gravships) have a 100% defensive withdrawal chance against barbarian mindworms, IoDs and sealurks. This would require some unitAI changes though to make them understand it's actually pretty safe to send out dropships unescorted.

Do these sound good?

 

[Ahriman]

I'm not convinced right now without further research that native life activity is the reason for potentially reduced overseas exploration

Something they found working on the Dune mod; the barbarian sandworms and sandstorms were scaring the AI into not sending out settlers. They fixed it by adjusting those units so that the AI wouldn't be afraid of their strength value.

Its possible something similar is occurring here.

I released a patch to fix this. See Download thread.

Thanks.

Plant Kelp instead of improvements on places that could be threatened by native life.

*every* naval tile is at risk of being threatened by native life, unless its in a tiny lake or inland sea.

Normally, you can scourge your own terrain of fungus and you'll be pretty safe from land natives; and if they start coming near, they're slow enough that you can bombard them into submission. But if your neighbor (or your neighbors neighbor half way around planet, or just in unsettled terrain) has some fungus around to spawn sea life, as soon as you start bringing naval units out, all the native naval life will beeline for your territory to attack your stuff and pillage it.

Land units don't work like that.

1) naval units can only pillage once per turn, regardless of movement points

This would help somewhat.

 

[Pfeffersack]

Safe from the Pholus Mutagen?

Though the Hybrid Forest tiles it self aren't bad (better then both fungus and forest), you might not want increase the FC with them, if you follow a non-planet strategy. Terraformed and EB are your options to have the tech without having your forests convert in to Hybrid Forests and the latter doesn't bring you into the Hybrid/Terraform conflict. I admit that this probably a rare situation, but it is another advantage of EB, IMO.

I should have a look at the sea transport AI. I'm not convinced right now without further research that native life activity is the reason for potentially reduced overseas exploration. Perhaps the reason why the AI may seem to expand less is simply that they have less land to expand to and build up their economy before needing to go overseas. In Planetfall the factions are placed closer to each other. And Dune uses an Archipelago map IIUC. Does the Planetfall AI expand less than the vanilla AI on an Archipelago map?

I was some time ago that I played the last Archipelago map under stock rules or Better AI, but I don't remember such strange delays in the use of colony pods. Moreover, I usually play Prince/Monarch, but Planetfall under Emperor difficulty.
I could run a test, but that would only cover the oversea land expansion, not the question why the AIs happily build sea colony pods without using them ever.

 

[Ahriman]

Is it intended that fungal towers can shoot down mass driver bombardment? Seems pretty bizarre.

 

[Lord Tirian]

I could run a test, but that would only cover the oversea land expansion, not the question why the AIs happily build sea colony pods without using them ever.

Yeah, that's the weird bit - plus the game actually makes settle suggestions, meaning there is a plot evaluation for sea colony pods going on.

Another thing: Sea colonies can be settled on the trench feature - and settling cities destroys features... it's somehow odd to see cities munching up trenches. I think settling on trenches could be forbidden - just like peaks on land.

Cheers, LT.

 

[The_J]

The destroying of features can be disabled in the CvGameUtils.py.
But i don't know, if it makes sense.

 

[Pfeffersack]

See the picture for both issues:

- AI sometimes spams bunkers...they give +1 food, but I don't think they should be the main terrain improvement for anyone - perhaps there should be a rule that bunkers can not be placed adjacent to each other?

- Native life can even get Great Persons (I guess they ended up in a city with a wonder)

 

[Lord Tirian]

Another thing: Sea colonies can be settled on the trench feature - and settling cities destroys features... it's somehow odd to see cities munching up trenches. I think settling on trenches could be forbidden - just like peaks on land.

Noticed something else along this line: Kelp farms destroy trenches (this is due to the fact that kelp farms are features - like trenches - not improvements).

Cheers, LT.

 

[Pfeffersack]

Two questions regarding promotions/special abilities...

- It seems that there is no way to acquire the Blitz promotion (the Datalinks entry shows both no tech which enables it and no class of units for which it is allowed). SMAC had no special Blitz ability, but IIRC units could always attack as long as they had movement left, e.g. choppers (what made them - beside their low cost - so insanely powerful and unbalanced) - so I think having Blitz in Planetfall would be right, also it would help vs. native life in some cases.

- Dropships can both get the Movement promotions and the Range abilities - both seem to increase their movement, but the latter also adds a zone around the Dropship. I wonder what this zone does you good...I tried to load units on the dropship, when being a tile away, but that does not work. Or would it extend e.g. the interception ability to adjacent tiles, if you have choosen AAA tracking as well?

 

[Maniac]

Thanks guys! I'll check out the issues you reported.

Is it intended that fungal towers can shoot down mass driver bombardment? Seems pretty bizarre.

The fungal towers send out a cloud of locusts to attack the artillery.

In gameplay terms, the trick is finding some kind of balance between making the fungal tower not too strong, but also not a sitting duck. Don't know if the current implementation is right, but generally speaking bizarre things may sometimes be necessary for the sake of gameplay.

- AI sometimes spams bunkers...they give +1 food, but I don't think they should be the main terrain improvement for anyone - perhaps there should be a rule that bunkers can not be placed adjacent to each other?

I intend (in some undefined future) to have a look at bunker placement. For instance make the AI more likely to build them on fungus-infested coasts. I don't think hard restrictions are necessary though. If a player wants to spend all those minerals on building a more or less impregnable defense, I guess that's their choice. It does not come over as an efficient strategy to me.

It seems that there is no way to acquire the Blitz promotion (the Datalinks entry shows both no tech which enables it and no class of units for which it is allowed). SMAC had no special Blitz ability, but IIRC units could always attack as long as they had movement left, e.g. choppers (what made them - beside their low cost - so insanely powerful and unbalanced) - so I think having Blitz in Planetfall would be right, also it would help vs. native life in some cases.

I don't want all high movement units to have inherent blitz, but I do like the idea of a special ability. I don't have any inspiration though. What name would you give to the special ability with this effect? What tech would enable it? What unit combat types could pick it?

 

[The_Coyote]

Those textures look horrible.

thanks (btw i have no idea why the ships have this 'strange' colour sheme), if you are interested (are you?) in the skjold, why you did not asked me if you can get a slightly different texture (or the non shader version)

nevertheless a pic of a quick greyed texture version attached (i´m sure Lord Tirian can still improve the texture further - think he is already better creating textures than i)

 

[GeoModder]

I don't want all high movement units to have inherent blitz, but I do like the idea of a special ability. I don't have any inspiration though. What name would you give to the special ability with this effect? What tech would enable it? What unit combat types could pick it?

A tech enabling Blitz? Mind/Machine Interface of course.
Or if it needs to come early the Doctrine: Flexibility tech.
An idea for the special ability name could be "tacticalAI" if MMI enables it.

 

[Maniac]

if you are interested (are you?) in the skjold, why you did not asked me if you can get a slightly different texture (or the non shader version)

1) The two cruiser units already have unique graphics at the moment, so there's no urgent need. Of course, due to the ability to change graphics with promotions, the graphic could still be used for a cruiser unit with extra movement points.
2) It would be kinda lame to ask you to create a no shader version if I'm not even sure yet if I wanted to use the model (due to not being able to see it - circular problem ).
3) How come it has so many polygons? For a ship at least. The stealth destroyer has a mere 150 polygons for instance, the missile cruiser some 400.

 

[Lord Tirian]

A tech enabling Blitz? Mind/Machine Interface of course.

Hmm... MMI is a pretty good tech already, giving you a unit, a building and a new special ability. I'd rather stick it onto Neural Grafting or Moletronics, which are both a bit underwhelming for me - especially the latter.

The nice thing about Blitz is that it can be visualised in a lot of way, some rough ideas (only the first suggestion is tied to moletronics, the rest is generic):

• Moletronic Circuits - some sort of computerised system, that responds extremely fast, meaning you can shoot more often!
• Soma Stimulant - drugs that make you last longer so you can attack without resting, could be something synthetic or planet-derived (you can read "soma" as in "somatic", i.e. body-related or as in "Soma"
• Autonomous Weaponry - some computer-controlled weapons, just drive/walk/hover - the computer will do the shooting for you!
• Doctrine: Shock - just what it says on its tin - people trained to do a "shock and awe" tactic.

Of course, due to the ability to change graphics with promotions, the graphic could still be used for a cruiser unit with extra movement points.

Huh - the camouflage texture was... not that good, but the ship itself is actually quite nice. With a bit of retexturing, I could imagine a couple of uses for it:

• Made smaller and with larger windows, it looks like a nice little patrol boat - foil-sized or so.
• It would also make a nice transport cruiser - it's nice and looks utilitarian, I can totally see the bulk of the ship as some sort of cargo hold. Perhaps one would need to remove the cannon for that.
• In the same vein, with some launcher structures added at the sides, it would make a really nice carrier, especially with the radar/antennas it already has.

Cheers, LT.