v11 feedback

[Maniac]

So, from my point of view, making base bombardment inherent of artillery and cruiser units would make their role and niche much clearer (that would help new players as well).

I think giving inherent bombard ability to Armor would make the unit too powerful for so little research. Though I could give some inherent bombardment to the cruiser units and Mass Driver/Behemoth.

I indeed plan to turn collateral damage into a special ability. I'm not sure what numbers would fit though. Any suggestions on what inherent collateral damage cruisers and artillery should do, and what the special ability and promotions should give?

Judging from Wikipedia, Flechette seems mostly anti-personnel by the way.

Anyway, even if you don't want to go with that, I think that the "accuracy" spec ab should be renamed to "siege mortar" or something along these lines to make clear what it's used for.

'Heavy Artillery'?

I made a strange observation in my current game (started under 11d), continued under e) and f)) regarding Deidre and her civic choices.

Aha, great! With help from your save I've been able to finally fix this one.

 

[Pfeffersack]

Aha, great! With help from your save I've been able to finally fix this one.

I'm glad that it was that helpful

BTW, another thing regarding civics - if was the first time since a long time ago, that I watched someone else the Yang and me going for Police State (again Deidre - she seems to have both a huge conventional and native army)

 

[Pfeffersack]

Edit:

Is it intended that an aquaformer in damaged state on a seafungus tile prevents other aquaformers on that tile from removing fungus? Because that happens in this save - you cannot use the intact formers, unless you self-destruct the damaged one (the tile is one the right egde of the minimap, in the middle)

I'm still having trouble with that under patch f) - here is the save, try to clean fungus with the non-damaged aquaformer near "Sitz des Urteils"

 

[Maniac]

BTW, another thing regarding civics - if was the first time since a long time ago, that I watched someone else the Yang and me going for Police State (again Deidre - she seems to have both a huge conventional and native army)

That's probably just caused by moving Democratic from a level 2 to a level 4 tech, meaning there's a short window where Police State is the best/only choice. No true solution for Democratic overabundance.

I'm still having trouble with that under patch f) - here is the save, try to clean fungus with the non-damaged aquaformer near "Sitz des Urteils"

Woops. Should be fixed in next patch.

 

[WarKirby]

ok, So I just noticed three things.

1. Hybrid gives no maintenance costs from number of bases
2. Autarky gives no maintenance costs from distance to capital
3. These two civics are in seperate categories.

this seems a pretty extreme combination.

 

[WarKirby]

Why do windmills give better yields in rocky areas?

it's perfectly understandable that they'd be better in high elevation, but not rockiness. If anything, a rough area would slow the flow of wind and make things worse. Windmills work best in high open places, as empty as possible and not near forests.


Also, why can I build in jungles, but not in forests ? And also not in fungus, with a few exceptions apparently
I seem to be able to build field labs in fungus, but greenhouses clear it...

I don't see a logical reason to be able to build in jungle, so perhaps it'd be best to just not make that possible. For that matter, why does jungle exist at all? It seems rather odd next to the fungus, especially the fact that it apparent;y grows naturally on the planet. Is it going to get an art overhaul at some point to look more alien ? Personally, I think the fungus itself adequately fills the role of jungle, and that jungle isn't necessary at all. I'm also finding it odd that if it's next to a river, and I get environmental economics, jungle actually gives me +1 food. In addition to a defense bonus, AND being able to build things in it. It's not only out of flavour, but apparently superior to both fungus and forest

And on that subject, why can't greenhouses be built on fertile land?It seems they can't be built on the rich green terrain that gives 2 food, which leaves me wondering how I'm supposed to produce food in a non-planet-damaging way as the gaians.

Related to planet damaging, it seems that when built in non-rocky areas, mines and forests give the same yield. And since forests also give health, and don't damage the environment, there's really no choice between the two. Forest is clearly superior. Shouldn't the planet damage be a tradeoff for increased yield ?

 

[Pfeffersack]

ok, So I just noticed three things.

1. Hybrid gives no maintenance costs from number of bases
2. Autarky gives no maintenance costs from distance to capital
3. These two civics are in seperate categories.

this seems a pretty extreme combination.

Yeah, that combo was discussed recently for being too powerful and temporarily reduced to 50% for each civic. However, Maniac decided to restore the old values - no clear evidence was founded that the game was more balanced with 50% costs and "no cost" ist just a clearer and cooler effect then a reduction - moreover a reduction which you can have in Planetfall sooner or later anyway (by building all the maintenance reducing facilities you can even get to zero costs). Also Hybrid was tweaked by adding a health penalty (Autarky not, but it never was that overpowered anyway - you can earn a lot of money from foreign trade routes).

Without doubt there are cases where this combination rules, but thats also in extreme cases (very big, not high-developed-but green empire and no friends)

 

[Maniac]

Why do windmills give better yields in rocky areas?

it's perfectly understandable that they'd be better in high elevation, but not rockiness. If anything, a rough area would slow the flow of wind and make things worse. Windmills work best in high open places, as empty as possible and not near forests.

You're wrong on how winds work. I asked the same question long ago, but someone more knowledgeable on the matter than us told that winds suddenly being pushed and pressured upwards because of a hill or so, increases the wind speed at the top of that hill. Or something like that.

And on that subject, why can't greenhouses be built on fertile land?It seems they can't be built on the rich green terrain that gives 2 food, which leaves me wondering how I'm supposed to produce food in a non-planet-damaging way as the gaians.

You're not. A Pro-Planet strategy will tend to lead to smaller bases.

Related to planet damaging, it seems that when built in non-rocky areas, mines and forests give the same yield. And since forests also give health, and don't damage the environment, there's really no choice between the two. Forest is clearly superior. Shouldn't the planet damage be a tradeoff for increased yield ?

You're right that forest is superior. Mines are a tech level 1 improvement. Forest require tech level 3. So there's a window in the early game where mines are the best/only way to get extra minerals from flat terrain. But once you have forests you should only use them on rocky. Unless you have the Unity Mining Laser or so.

 

[Keeper_GFA]

I think giving inherent bombard ability to Armor would make the unit too powerful for so little research.

How about giving the artillery line the defensive strikes ability from FfH? It's much less powerful than a ranged strike, but appropriate and useful. And the ranged strikes could still stay available via special ability.

 

[Maniac]

You're right that forest is superior. Mines are a tech level 1 improvement. Forest require tech level 3. So there's a window in the early game where mines are the best/only way to get extra minerals from flat terrain. But once you have forests you should only use them on rocky. Unless you have the Unity Mining Laser or so.

In addition, forests can't be planted under the Enclosed Biosphere civic.

How about giving the artillery line the defensive strikes ability from FfH? It's much less powerful than a ranged strike, but appropriate and useful. And the ranged strikes could still stay available via special ability.

Could be a good special ability I guess. Though I must say defensive strikes have never struck me as particularly exciting in FfH.

 

[WarKirby]

You're wrong on how winds work. I asked the same question long ago, but someone more knowledgeable on the matter than us told that winds suddenly being pushed and pressured upwards because of a hill or so, increases the wind speed at the top of that hill. Or something like that.

But that's what I'm saying. Hills = good.


But I'm also saying, rockiness = irrelevant. Why should a grassy ridge give any less output than a rocky ridge. Surely the fact they're on a ridge is what matters.

 

[WarKirby]

Also, maniac, you never said anything about Kelp farms. Can I ask why you changed the ability to build on top of them? I always found that to be a rather fun and unique mechanic, that made ocean terraforming feel different. Having to choose a kelp farm OR comething else seems a lot more bland..

 

[Lord Tirian]

Why should a grassy ridge give any less output than a rocky ridge. Surely the fact they're on a ridge is what matters.

Because there are no ridges that are "only" grassy, so to speak.

Read up in the Planetfall concepts - each plot is a combination of three factors, elevation, terrain and precipitation.

Elevation -> lowlands, highlands, ridges; these things are, literally, how high the land is, as in "1500m over sea level".
Terrain -> flat or rocky; originally (and in SMAC) there was "roiling" as intermediate step, this represents how rugged/jagged etc. the land is - rocky plots *are* hills, so to speak.
Precipitation -> arid, moist, rainy; self-explanatory.

This means you can see flat ridges as high mesas, whereas rocky ridges are riddled with peaks, very similar to mountains.

At least, that's how I read it in the concepts and how I interpreted SMAC and Planetfall terrain.

Also, maniac, you never said anything about Kelp farms. Can I ask why you changed the ability to build on top of them? I always found that to be a rather fun and unique mechanic, that made ocean terraforming feel different. Having to choose a kelp farm OR comething else seems a lot more bland..

Can't speak about the gameplay, but this does sound fun and interesting (especially as you don't get condensators or growing farms for a later boost of ocean nutrient production).

Cheers, LT.

 

[Maniac]

Also, maniac, you never said anything about Kelp farms. Can I ask why you changed the ability to build on top of them? I always found that to be a rather fun and unique mechanic, that made ocean terraforming feel different. Having to choose a kelp farm OR comething else seems a lot more bland..

1. While allowing improvements on features is easy, I couldn't find a non-buggy way to let features be planted on plots that already have an improvement, while keeping that improvement. Let alone make the AI understand these combinations are possible.

2. In SMAC you could plant kelp everywhere you could build tidal harnesses/mining platforms. I don't see what's the gameplay difference between always allowing kelp together with other improvements, or never allowing it. Except that allowing it doubles the repetitive former management on the sea.

rocky plots *are* hills

QFT!

 

[WarKirby]

Incorporating something like spells or action buttons would be useful. Rather than using the default build system, it could be a "spell" that creates kelp on the tile.

Stuff like that is so insanely useful, it's difficult to see a mod working without it now, having grown used to being able to make a spell for anything in FFH.

 

[Pfeffersack]

I also think that Kelp + another improvement would make sea bases too good. Currently it is perfectly balanced for my taste - you can use the sea as expansion room, if other factions have grabbed all the land, but you either have to look out for the limited spots with a couple of ressources or you will just get mediocre bases.

But maybe Kelp + 2nd improvement could work for the Pirate Faction - if they enter the game later, the have already a significant disadvantage and this cool and powerful ability could help them...

 

[WarKirby]

perhaps moving kelp back to some earlier tech, but making it have no benefit until algaculture. Then make Kelp in the tile a requirement to build any other sea improvement.

 

[Lord Tirian]

perhaps moving kelp back to some earlier tech, but making it have no benefit until algaculture. Then make Kelp in the tile a requirement to build any other sea improvement.

Holy micro-managing! What's the point of that? Just for the cosmetic effect of having kelp combined with an improvement? Then you could also add the kelp graphic to all ocean improvements and make algaculture a "+1 nutrient for all improvements" tech.

If kelp and improvements aren't mutually exclusive, then planting it has no purpose at all, as you're not making a choice between different options, instead you are just clicking the button, because it's an automatic "must" (since there is no opportunity cost). Which is, for me at least, just pointless micro-managing without any real gain.

Cheers, LT.

 

[WarKirby]

I've never really thought much of micromanagement concerns. Isn't that what the Automate Former button is for ? A bit of extra micromanagement for the sake of fun and flavour is usually alright by me though. You could argue why we need all these seperate units, and why not just have an "army" unit without worrying about individual components. but that would be silly

having all sea improvements automatically create kelp under themselves would be a fine solution. maybe a little python function whenever one is built that puts kelp on the tile if it's valid. Having kelp actually incorprated in the art isn't a good idea since it adds extra effort to making sea art, for one.

 

[deadliver]

In my current Uni game the first pod I explored spawned a chopper. I used the chopper to explore and it popped 4 choppers in a row (after that I got an xp gain spawn twice in a row with the same chopper). Are choppers are very common pod spawn?