v21 bugs and crashes

[Koshling]

Had a weird thing happen, My Rogue was just pushed OUT of his spot, to a NW tile by an invading Archer unit for NO apparent reason? (attached 1/2)

This is a bug, but a minor one. What happens is that when a war is declared (the other guy seems to have declared war on you even though you dont actually have diplomacy yet), any units that are in the same plot as units of the person they are now at war with are moved to the nearest valid plot. This does not apply to invisible units however, and for always invisible units it works fine. For units that can be seen by certain other units (like your rogue here) it applies a can-see test, but it has this the wrong way round, so its ejecting your rogue becaue it can see the archer, whereas it SHOULD be testing whether the archer can see you. The fix shouldn't be hard, but it's not uttrely trivial, and I'm out of time tonight. I should be able to fix it tomorrow if nothing more urgent comes up.

EDIT: Had these guys just sitting there doing nothing, or the civs that its enemy, doing nothing either?? I believe now it has been over 10 turns, maybe more?? (attached 3/4)

They want to attack the city, but lack the strength so they are awaiting reinforcements (that will never come since they are barbarians and there are no nearby sources of other barbarians). They also can't find any nearby pillage targets, and are on the best defensive terrain to attack the city from that they can find. Net result is they can't see anything better than just sitting there. Eventually the city owner will probably repulse them, but he likewise lacks good attack odds against them currently

 

[strategyonly]

This is a bug, but a minor one. What happens is that when a war is declared (the other guy seems to have declared war on you even though you dont actually have diplomacy yet), any units that are in the same plot as units of the person they are now at war with are moved to the nearest valid plot. This does not apply to invisible units however, and for always invisible units it works fine. For units that can be seen by certain other units (like your rogue here) it applies a can-see test, but it has this the wrong way round, so its ejecting your rogue because it can see the archer, whereas it SHOULD be testing whether the archer can see you. The fix shouldn't be hard, but it's not utterly trivial, and I'm out of time tonight. I should be able to fix it tomorrow if nothing more urgent comes up.

They want to attack the city, but lack the strength so they are awaiting reinforcements (that will never come since they are barbarians and there are no nearby sources of other barbarians). They also can't find any nearby pillage targets, and are on the best defensive terrain to attack the city from that they can find. Net result is they can't see anything better than just sitting there. Eventually the city owner will probably repulse them, but he likewise lacks good attack odds against them currently

Both great explanations, and dont worry about them to fast, i know more important stuff comes first, as always, thx.

 

[charlesb96]

Did you get any error messages in PythonEr.Log (note not PythonErr2.log)? In the logs folder which is in the same place as the saves folder which contains your save games.

There is no PythonEr.Log in that folder, just the PythonErr2.Log.

 

[Filochard]

Just tried this with latest code and it's taking the obvious path for me. Are you up to date with the latest SVN? Does it reproduce for you loading that save game? Is that the first move your testign out with that eagle or did you check other targets first?

The SVN version as +or- 1 day (don't remember witch one sorry), it was the first move i don't try others and it's not reproducing on reload.

 

[Hydromancerx]

oh ok, i cant do a release till this and the Revolutions stuff gets fixed, so what say you Hydro?

Well I tweaked the crime per pop, but I am not sure how much is "broken" and how much is just people not use to the new system yet. We will need the freeze to test it out and see what needs to be done.

Remember its a brand new system so there are bound to be bugs and balance issues. Plus existing games may be extremely unbalanced due to players not preparing for crime. I need a lot more feedback with info to know what needs to be fixed.

So far it was the crime per pop which just got fixed. I suspect that adding a promotion to law enforcement units should help balance things out too. However I do not know if AI Andy will add it before the freeze ends.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Well I tweaked the crime per pop, but I am not sure how much is "broken" and how much is just people not use to the new system yet. We will need the freeze to test it out and see what needs to be done.

Remember its a brand new system so there are bound to be bugs and balance issues. Plus existing games may be extremely unbalanced due to players not preparing for crime. I need a lot more feedback with info to know what needs to be fixed.

So far it was the crime per pop which just got fixed. I suspect that adding a promotion to law enforcement units should help balance things out too. However I do not know if AI Andy will add it before the freeze ends.

It is stopping y capital being my military city since I cant build the mercenary buildings there.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@Koshling here is a city defended by an animal. I just killed all the other units in there.

 

[strategyonly]

My worker just seems to go back and forth between 1 tile away and back to the city, while if it goes 2 tiles it can do a scavenging hut for the deer right next to it??

SVN 2106

 

[AIAndy]

So far it was the crime per pop which just got fixed. I suspect that adding a promotion to law enforcement units should help balance things out too. However I do not know if AI Andy will add it before the freeze ends.

You can already but you should not. The AI would not understand it at all, leaving it at a serious disadvantage and it is too late in the cycle to address that properly. So for now balance crime around not having the law enforcement units.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Well so far in my testing i go from say 100% science in ancient to 50% at the beginning of classical. Its hard to me to tell if its the crime or my difficulty since I uped it one notch this game. In all my cities my crime ranges from say +50 to +150 so I am guessing that's a good sign for the crime per population drop to +3.

Right now the only crimes I get are Soliciting, Forgery and Counterfeiting. Most of which drain my gold but my cities are pretty good in happiness. I am unhealthy in my largest cities but i suspect i can counter that soon with Ancient Medicine.

As for where I am in the pack I am smack dab in the middle. France is the main leader and is like around 4 times as powerful as me. The rest are around my strength except for 1 or 2 barb emerged civs which are around 4 times as weak as me. I am not sure if there are more for me to meet. I suspect so since France blocked my way to see the rest of the land.

How is everyone else doing with the new crime stuff?

 

[WimpyTheWarrior]

How is everyone else doing with the new crime stuff?

Just started a new game w/ SVN 2106. Early days still, nothing meaningful to report yet, but is there something you'd like me (and other test lab rats) to be observant for?

I confess I first loaded my awesome game from 1700BC (SVN 2084, minus 2054) and the new crime buildings dropped all my city's happiness. Soliciting at +2 seems excessive, which is why I decided to start fresh and see Crime as it was intended from the beginning.

For those of us that love micromanagement, it would be helpful to have hover text on the city display to list buildings that impact crime. similar to how we can determine what to build for health, happiness, research, etc. And someone already mentioned the need for a filter button a the bottom of the City screen.

The concept looks really interesting!

 

[Hanny]

Settler AI.

On GEM i notice Egypt settler with damaged hunter comming, so blocked its movement with 3 spear units, it tried to manouver past them until boxed in and could only go back ( to nice area to settle) so it had to either back of or cross the desert to reach upper Lebanon, so it saw it could goto where it wanted, but stayed put even after the hunter was fully healled.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Just started a new game w/ SVN 2106. Early days still, nothing meaningful to report yet, but is there something you'd like me (and other test lab rats) to be observant for?

Yes I do. Please try to report back on the following ....

1. The amount of crime you have on average.

2. How your crime is over time (such as when you reach each era).

3. If you are having money troubles or excess money.

4. If you are having happiness trouble or excess.

5. If you are having health troubles or excess.

6. If you are having revolutions troubles now that there is crime.

7. If anything confuses you about the new crime system.

Please try to answer those and your gaming settings (ex. Map Size, Speed, Difficulty, Map Type, Civilization, Leader, etc.) Also what civics were you running when you ran into a problem.

Detailed info is key to getting a more balanced game. Thanks!

 

[Koshling]

Settler AI.

On GEM i notice Egypt settler with damaged hunter comming, so blocked its movement with 3 spear units, it tried to manouver past them until boxed in and could only go back ( to nice area to settle) so it had to either back of or cross the desert to reach upper Lebanon, so it saw it could goto where it wanted, but stayed put even after the hunter was fully healled.

Need save game please

 

[Koshling]

@Koshling here is a city defended by an animal. I just killed all the other units in there.

Ah ha! This is because the animal in the city cannot move, because it cannot neter owned territory and all surrounding tiles are owned (by the barbarian). Since animals ARE barbarians (for factional purposes) this seems wrong, so I'm going to change it to allow animals to roam freely in barbarian territory.

In some future version (NOT now) we might want to change animals to operate as a different pseudo-player to barbarians, which would have a number of consequences:

• Animals and barbarians would attack one another in the same way that animals and AI players do
• Barbarians would be able to hunt, and hthus get subdued animals and butchery yields like any other player
• Icould remove this temporary fix so that aniamls were restricted to neutral territory again

 

[Koshling]

My worker just seems to go back and forth between 1 tile away and back to the city, while if it goes 2 tiles it can do a scavenging hut for the deer right next to it??

SVN 2106

This was a bug due to the AI code not quite working correctly when called from human unit automation. Specifically, the AI checks for danger when moving its workers and requests (and waits for) an escort unit if it thinks it needs it. Obviously human automated unit can't do this, so that functionality is turned off for them (they just walk into minor danger, which is the downside you pay for automating). When I updated the AI danger detection a while ago I forgot to omit the human unit case from one of the tests. The net result is that the worker abandons trying to move to its target because it thinks it should have an escort, even though (being a human player unit) it never asked for one and has no way to do so anyway.

I am testing a fix currently, which will mean that automated workers will basically ignore danger while pathing that they don't explicitly check for (which is the same as it was in BtS). They still check for obvious danger before they embark on a path, but will not react to some things that the AI will react to. In this case I can't tell exactly what is causing it to regard the path as dangerous (I'd guess you had a unit killed nearby or soemthing a little while ago), but the plots have a danger value over 20 (if you have chipotle enabled shift-hover the plot and the hover text shows the danger level for all players that have a danger value there. Plot danger is added to by visible enemy units, your units being killed nearby, or by nearby pillages of your improvements. It radiates to nearby plots and it decays over time.

 

[Koshling]

Very questionable AI behavior in this saved game. I came across two unaccompanied Great Generals in neutral territory. They're almost due east of Ur. Can you let me know what's causing this?

Finally got round to looking at this. It's because (these at least, but this is common) great generals have a unit AI of UNITAI_ATTACK, and the code for that AI has no concept of an attack unit with no combat strength, so it doesn't consider things like the need for escorts. I'm taking a look now to see if there is a simple fix I can get in at least as a patch for v22.

Edit - oops no that was wrong. They have their own unit AI (UNITAI_GENERAL) and part fo waht it does is find the best stack to join, but neglects to only consider ones it can path to fairly safely. Should be an easy fix.

 

[strategyonly]

This was a bug due to the AI code not quite working correctly when called from human unit automation. Specifically, the AI checks for danger when moving its workers and requests (and waits for) an escort unit if it thinks it needs it. Obviously human automated unit can't do this, so that functionality is turned off for them (they just walk into minor danger, which is the downside you pay for automating). When I updated the AI danger detection a while ago I forgot to omit the human unit case from one of the tests. The net result is that the worker abandons trying to move to its target because it thinks it should have an escort, even though (being a human player unit) it never asked for one and has no way to do so anyway.

I am testing a fix currently, which will mean that automated workers will basically ignore danger while pathing that they don't explicitly check for (which is the same as it was in BtS). They still check for obvious danger before they embark on a path, but will not react to some things that the AI will react to. In this case I can't tell exactly what is causing it to regard the path as dangerous (I'd guess you had a unit killed nearby or something a little while ago), but the plots have a danger value over 20 (if you have chipotle enabled shift-hover the plot and the hover text shows the danger level for all players that have a danger value there. Plot danger is added to by visible enemy units, your units being killed nearby, or by nearby pillages of your improvements. It radiates to nearby plots and it decays over time.

WOW all that from 1 simple worker reaction/non-reaction, makes you wonder sometimes, i am soooo glad you give great explanations and the work your doing is simply FANTASTIC

 

[strategyonly]

OK now that i cant get Thief's/Rogues, i'll try for Ambushers. OOPs cant, cause there is NEVER and Poison area??

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

OK now that i cant get Thief's/Rogues, i'll try for Ambushers. OOPs cant, cause there is NEVER and Poison area??

Capture a couple of snakes and build the Snake Charmer (at Prehistoric Music) and then Snake Pit (only Cobra can do this, at Shamanism). The Snake Pit gives poison.