V37

Status
Not open for further replies.
Aww so I conclude that V37 IS shipped with a broken NM option. And something that could have been fixed in just a few minutes from the looks of it :-(
By Joe or SO. I'm hands off that stuff. However, I can't imagine how hard Deity would be now that the economy has been re-balanced anyhow, particularly with what I've seen the emergent criminals being able to do to young nations. HARDER??? Sheesh... massive glutton for pain perhaps.
 
I'm noticing more regular barbarians here in ver37 along with more neanderthals. They make the game tougher, but I'm glad to see them because the game is more interesting with them. They also seem to be fairly aggressive too, especially the neanderthals. They have been coming right into my territory and attacking anything they see, but I'm able to deal with them so far.
 
Aww so I conclude that V37 IS shipped with a broken NM option. And something that could have been fixed in just a few minutes from the looks of it :-(

Use Reg Deity then until SO sees this and updates or I get the time to fix it. And as you can see Reg Deity is harder. Guess I needed to spell it out (show him the files) for SO to understand what I've been saying.

JosEPh
 
Last edited:
I'm noticing more regular barbarians here in ver37 along with more neanderthals. They make the game tougher, but I'm glad to see them because the game is more interesting with them. They also seem to be fairly aggressive too, especially the neanderthals. They have been coming right into my territory and attacking anything they see, but I'm able to deal with them so far.

Yep started a new game last night and neander brutes and Wanderers showed up very early. The Wanderer pillaged my very 1st gatherer's tile improvement straight off. Dirty Lil' scrub knuckler! ;)

1 thing that was kind of troubling to me was that on the 2nd turn of the game I had a Predator Fox spawn right next to my settler. And when the game starts your stone thrower can be 4 tiles away. So guess where my 1st city was! Not where I wanted at all! Double :p. So I guess DH's 10 turn start offset for Spawns is not working anymore.

@T-brd on turn 140 Marathon I had a non repeatable CTD with a 0KB Minidump file. I loaded the last Auto save which was 3 turns before and was able to proceed past the turn that had the hiccup.

JosEPh
 
I'm noticing more regular barbarians here in ver37 along with more neanderthals. They make the game tougher, but I'm glad to see them because the game is more interesting with them. They also seem to be fairly aggressive too, especially the neanderthals. They have been coming right into my territory and attacking anything they see, but I'm able to deal with them so far.
Awesome! A lot of last minute work was done on that, blindly hoping the numbers would make for a fun amount of them rather than an overwhelming hoard. I did some immediate testing on it for a handful of rounds and it seemed to be presenting a fair amount that should make things more interesting rather than annoying. Glad to hear it struck the right chord!

Yep started a new game last night and neander brutes and Wanderers showed up very early. The Wanderer pillaged my very 1st gatherer's tile improvement straight off. Dirty Lil' scrub knuckler! ;)

1 thing that was kind of troubling to me was that on the 2nd turn of the game I had a Predator Fox spawn right next to my settler. And when the game starts your stone thrower can be 4 tiles away. So guess where my 1st city was! Not where I wanted at all! Double :p. So I guess DH's 10 turn start offset for Spawns is not working anymore.

@T-brd on turn 140 Marathon I had a non repeatable CTD with a 0KB Minidump file. I loaded the last Auto save which was 3 turns before and was able to proceed past the turn that had the hiccup.

JosEPh
I'm having trouble answering or commenting... can't get past "Dirty Lil' scrub knuckler" Roflmao!

I've just added to my developing v38 project list to add a global that lets players determine how many turns spawns MUST wait into the game. The spawns are given some time before they can begin but the margin is huge on the long gamespeeds and quite short to not at all on faster ones. Perhaps some of the animal ones aren't setup with that slight margin... I'd have to look at the spawns xml. But even if they are it's going to vary a lot since we can only control the brackets of a spawn with dates at the moment. I really want to also add tech brackets for spawns for particular players so that I can abandon trying to target the barb spawns by date, which is all I had time to mod in just before v37's release... the current setup will be less than perfect as a result but you have dating pretty close to correct so I could temporarily rely on that for now.

Was that 140 turns into the game without a restart? We know the EXE itself has a memory leak somewhere that builds up over quite a few turns that IS exacerbated by large mods. To some extent there's only so much we can do to eliminate them all. I know this MAY be a sign of an issue in the dll lurking somewhere but it's one of those things that never gives us any help to point out where it might be so it could be haphazardly found and fixed at some point while reviewing the code and recognizing a problem somewhere. Hopefully it doesn't happen too often...
 
Was that 140 turns into the game without a restart?

Yes it was. And I let it go too long for a manual save.

Also as I noted above the save file size is ~ 1mb larger for same setup as a pre v 37 game for same timeframe/# of turns. The save file is growing rather fast impo. This could be a warning of things to come. Perhaps I need to turn Peace among NPC Off next time to cut down on early game number of units on the Map. As this is probably the main cause for the larger quicker save file size I'm seeing. And this is w/o any CM Mod Options being used. I can't imagine how much bigger it (the save file size) would be if SM was On.

JosEPh
 
Yes it was. And I let it go too long for a manual save.

Also as I noted above the save file size is ~ 1mb larger for same setup as a pre v 37 game for same timeframe/# of turns. The save file is growing rather fast impo. This could be a warning of things to come. Perhaps I need to turn Peace among NPC Off next time to cut down on early game number of units on the Map. As this is probably the main cause for the larger quicker save file size I'm seeing. And this is w/o any CM Mod Options being used. I can't imagine how much bigger it (the save file size) would be if SM was On.

JosEPh
SM can actually end up with less size due to the AI favoring, as it should, merging units. But then, NPC's won't merge or split so it really wouldn't make that much of a difference.

I was thinking it must have to do with the barb and Neanderthal spawns. For the sake of gameplay, are you finding there to be too many units being spawned (of all kinds) on a Peace Among NPCs game? I did the balance checks with it off and there are ways to adjust global rates for the Peace game independently.
 
I'm able to keep my continent in decent shape right now, but I just got to another one and there are animals all over the place. At least 1 on every tile and up to 4 or 5 on many of them so I'm not sure the AI is doing it's part in hunting them. The neanderthals and regular barbarian spawns seem to be fine. Neanderthal and barbarian cities are popping up all over my continent, but I'm able to keep them in check so far. I have not explored a really long way on the 2nd continent yet, but have not ran into a single barbarian or neanderthal city on it.
 
OK Joe, is this deity harder or easier??

Looks like it should be Harder.

Next step is to commit it and let Noriad2 know so he will be Happy and test it for you. ;)

JosEPh
 
SM can actually end up with less size due to the AI favoring, as it should, merging units. But then, NPC's won't merge or split so it really wouldn't make that much of a difference.

I was thinking it must have to do with the barb and Neanderthal spawns. For the sake of gameplay, are you finding there to be too many units being spawned (of all kinds) on a Peace Among NPCs game? I did the balance checks with it off and there are ways to adjust global rates for the Peace game independently.

I just realized the game I compared it to was on a large PM map with 7 AI and the new one is on Huge with 10 AI.

But as for Spawn rate, using PANPCs, gets pretty crowded fast at least at start of game.

JosEPh
 
But as for Spawn rate, using PANPCs, gets pretty crowded fast at least at start of game.
Ok. Good feedback. I'll turn down the dial on that. Are there any Player types in particular that look to be filling the map more than others with PANPCs?
 
Animals i am not seeing that often, deer, pig, buffalo, bengals, and more . .
There are some animals that are supposed to be more common so as to make the less common ones more valuable when found. Deer, pig, buffalo are all very useful. Thus they are a bit more rare. But a lot less rare than they used to be with some of the normalization done to make units with fewer available spawn plots show up more often (and that was their primary issue previously - these animals spawn purely from a very few spaces on the map, where their resources exist.) Bengals are rare because they are very very very very dangerous and we don't want them dominating the map too often because wherever they are, they will likely make the area impassable to human units for the first half of the prehistoric era.
 
There are some animals that are supposed to be more common so as to make the less common ones more valuable when found. Deer, pig, buffalo are all very useful. Thus they are a bit more rare. But a lot less rare than they used to be with some of the normalization done to make units with fewer available spawn plots show up more often (and that was their primary issue previously - these animals spawn purely from a very few spaces on the map, where their resources exist.) Bengals are rare because they are very very very very dangerous and we don't want them dominating the map too often because wherever they are, they will likely make the area impassable to human units for the first half of the prehistoric era.
I have seen a few bengals, but they were a little later in prehistoric and I haven't lost anything to them. I have not seen any of what I'd consider the most dangerous animal in the game though, the sabertooth tiger. Those things really are dangerous. I'm even afraid of taking them on with well promoted master hunters. I got lucky in my game with having a horse resource very close to me and have been able to subdue some of them. I did finally find some deer on the 2nd continent, but my rogue is not good at subduing anything. I need to get a hunter over there I guess. One thing that is spawning quite a bit on my home continent are vipers. They may need to be cut a little since they lead to ambushers. They are giving the barbarians and neanderthals a very rough time of it and just 2 of them helped me get rid of 30 enforcers in an Australian city before my small army got there to finish it off. I have 8 of them now and have not lost any of them.
 
Ok. Good feedback. I'll turn down the dial on that. Are there any Player types in particular that look to be filling the map more than others with PANPCs?
This seems to be more related to "where" on the map you start. This new game has lots of forest so I'm seeing deer, moose, Brown, Cave and another bear, wild boar/pig. Not many snakes yet, badgers, hawks, eagles, ravens good mix. Pheasants are plentiful and I just saw my 1st duck. Barn owls, red foxes, some pack lion and 1 cave lion.

1 oddity I've observed is that after you have subdued several red fox you lose the ability to use them for animal vs animal vs human fights. But I can fight Pheasants all day long! :lol:

There was one other animal that did this weird lose the a vs a vs h fight option but I can't find my little sticky note now. :p

JosEPh
 
I wanted to give my personal opinion about the new version and a bit of a critic about some things . I suppose this is the right thread to post it. Also in some parts I may seem to negative, but overall I'm enjoying the new version and I'm liking how the mod is shaping

So after playing my last game on V28, I came back with V37 and ,oh boy, it has improved a lot. The first thing to comment is that the increased difficulty compare to other versions, while not making the game as challenging as vanilla or other mods, it is much less of a park walk as it used to be and it makes the game more interesting. Also it was the first game in which I reached SL at a logical date (around 5000 BC) and I wasn't leading. I had read that it goes off after he further the tech tree you go (tech turn times have significantly been shortened compare to prehistoric) but overall it is a huge progress compare to previous versionsAlso I wanted to comment on the expanded combat mechanics introduce. Although I personally dislike SM, I really like the expanded invisibility levels and stealth combat is also an interesting concept although I see one major flaw as being unable to see units that had just moved to a jungle or a forest and you know they are there. I also find the expanded withdrawal options interesting , although I never liked defense withdrawal on cities.

Moving on there are a lot of things that are good changes but for the sake of keeping it concise I would just mention then such as different NPC teams, hunting has been improved (although I think it should be harder and provide less exp, but be more rewarding in yields. Also why butcher animal was removed?), worldviews or the different upgrade paths for improvements, to mention a few

As for other mechanics , I felt there are some of them that are under used and could be reworked. Specifically education and disease.Both are very bland mechanics: you build buildings and they increase or decrease the level, giving autobuildings that give some different modifiers. Education should be reworked to be a modifier to global tech cost depending on the time and one way to keep wide vs small balanced tech wise. Disease risk meanwhile should be used like in RI plagues: the bigger the score, the bigger the chance for an outbreak of a disease. The current autobuilds done with disease should be moved to meet other criteria. Anyway both are vague because I intend to suggest about then deeper in the future

The other mechanic with autobuilds is crime, and it is broken and uninteresting. Broken because not only it goes up without alerting the player (the lack of notifications makes checking each city a very tedious task), but due to the nature of the autobuilds you get it can easily led to a death spiral. Seriously mugging giving -14 Gold is ridiculous, that without counting the extra rev modifiers that should be taken out (also on buildings, revolutions whould be more interesting if only civics and circumstances affect them, not buildings).All of this are problems of balance, but the real problem is that crime mechanic is a very uninteresting mechanic. As a player, you need to crush crime in all your cities swiftly and without mercy, because the moment it starts growing it will get out of control and destroy your cities. Crime is inherently bad , but it shouldn't be. Crime should rather be a threat that auto regulates , that the only interaction need by the player is to make sure it doesn't get out of control. What I mean by auto regulates is that the lower it is the harder it is to reduced it and the higher it is the harder it is to increase it. Crime level would have different equilibrium points in which crime would be at a stable level. What I mean by equilibrium is that while small shocks would not move them (ex: a thief entering the city), bigger changes would move the level to a new equilibrium ( ex: another thief enter the city, and now crime level moves to a new equilibrium) Thus some crime will be the optimal strategy, as players wouldn't be losing too much money on either law enforcement nor by crime itself. However if you spent to little you will reach a level in which your empire would have real problems. The system himself would even be better if cities would have moments in which crime spikes(due to an epidemic, sacking) and in which citizens react against crime and reduce it to lower levels, similar to a chaotic system . Finally I don't think the AI know how to use the current system, so a crime mechanic that semi-autoregulate will probably improve the AI. Off the player will still had an advantage, specifically when it comes to using cops and criminal units, but overall I think it will improve the overall experience.

Finally the big problem the mod faces is the lack of meaningful choices compare to vanilla and I suspect the main reason are the huge amount of unnecessary buildings. Civics also suffer somewhat from this in some sections (Ex: language section for example is all of no-brainers choices, and should probably be axed) , but when I need to build a bark gatherer, and I'm going to build it in all my cities, then it isn't a choice. Think of vanilla for a second: as the player you were taking meaningful decisions most of the time , by city specialisation, by investing more or less on science , by getting more soldiers , etc. In C2C there are still meaningful choices but they are far less of them, in a good example of "more is not always better". In C2C there is a huge amount of buildings, but you are probably going to build the same in all your cities because there isn't really a balance. Also while the elephant trainer building for cities with elephant is a good idea, the sail maker buildings isn't as you are going to build it anyway. I would suggest cutting a lot of the current buildings, reduce the production chain s and making the remaining buildings more expensive but more rewarding. Also the autobuilds mechanic (probably the hidden gem of the mod) could be use so that when you get a ruby mine, you don't need to build a ruby mine. The player shouldn't be directing all the buildings the city gets (seriously, the amount of control the player get on buildings order would be ridiculous in RL, even on state-owned economiws) , but focus more on decision making. Building balance should also be reviewed, removing most of the +1 production/food/ gold bonuses and intead giving % modifiers, specifically after prehistoric era. Finally the economy side should also be looked at and the slider should again be an strategic choice

Overall I think that C2C have a lot of potential and it is from a technical point impressive. What it lacks are more interesting player interactions and more depth, done by removing no-brainers choices and making then though decisions
 
Also I would love to try to help in mod development , but I lack the skills necessary to yet mod Civ IV. I hope that in the future I could help in a practical way instead of giving just my opinion
 
@Pepo,

Regarding checking each city for crime, check out the screen you get with the F1 key, you can make a new custom-made page that shows the properties (scroll down all the way to the bottom in the table on the right).
If you have Revolutions on, you also have CTRL+SHIFT+G, where you get a screen that looks almost identical to the F1 screen, but this screen allows you to make a custom screen to monitor city stability (but not crime).

It took me half a year to figure out that those two screens were different :-/

Also, you can check out the crime on the map itself, hover your mouse over the city, and if crime is negative there, its probably negative in the city too.

Now if only there was a screen that says which new cultures can be built in which city, then I can stop having to check every city systematically every few turns.
 
Thanks Pepo. One comment about crime: did you know that on the main map, you can hover the mouse over the city and the popup window will tell you properties, such as crime and education and pollution? It took me a while to figure that out.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom