Venezia City Change?

[yogiebere]

Alright I'm pretty frustrated with Venezia right now, especially what the AI does

Also, the jutting island just looks awkward, I know its trying to represent that the city is water intensive but it could be better done

Order of Images
Old Venezia Spot (with Fiume awkwardly close)
Changed Venezia Spot
Map of Venezia

Venezia now will actually get that iron wine and coal that it never gets due to Augsburg north and not enough space. In addition, Fiume will have some breathing room, and those tiles in central Italy won't go unused (one overlap with Milano is a small price to pay)
Marsh is still there, but moved. Maybe the kingdom of Venezia now will do something a little more exciting (they seem to be verrrry scripted in the past)
The only alteration is maybe to make sure they don't take Firenze and Milano (I consider those Genoan posessions - Genoa has issues enough already)

 

[AbsintheRed]

I agree with many things regarding venice
Definitely needs some changes and improvements
Not sure (yet) that this is the best solution though...

 

[The Hyper Duck]

I like it. I have always thought that not being able to use the resources north of Venezia in its fat cross was kind of annoying, and there's not really enough space there to fit another city near the coast (between Augsburg, Venezia and the mountain tiles there's just not enough land to make it practical).

 

[youtien]

I usually found Fiume as capital, and Treviso for iron and wine.

 

[yogiebere]

I usually found Fiume as capital, and Treviso for iron and wine.

That's all fine, but the AI will just found Venezia and Fiume which is a big problem imo

Even if they are scripted to not build Fiume, that coal, iron, and wine is still unused by the AI

 

[Science Rules]

I usually build Verona to use those resources.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I'm still not sure what to do here
I don't really want to change anything like this without 3Miro
Moving the civs start location will mess up with a lot of precoded things, so it's a bigger change than it seems...
Merijn, what's your opinion on this?

 

[merijn_v1]

I actually like the peninsula as it it now, although is lack resources. But I can also live with the new idea, but then the land tiles are too many IMO.

 

[AbsintheRed]

but then the land tiles are too many IMO.

Agreed
Maybe just move Venice and delete the peninsula without adding new tiles?

 

[Daffy]

I actually like the Venetian spawn location as it is right now. The problem is Fiume or Zara built by the AI. You get the Iron and Wine north of Venice after the 2nd culture expansion anyway.(If Germany doesn't decide to build Essen 1tile NE of the wine)(which naming is totally off btw. unless there actually is/was a city called Essen in SW Austria, Innsbruck or so would be a better choice imo)

Portugal has a similar problem (with worse effects) by building Leiria on top of the pig NW of Lisboa(great they get the whale early..). I don't think I've ever seen Porto built by the AI. I've tried building Porto with Spain and letting it flip, but they build Leiria anyway :/

Spain kinda avoids building Madrid and is generally pretty dumb when it come's to placing it's other cities. (although they do build La Coruna now and then)

 

[yogiebere]

I actually like the Venetian spawn location as it is right now. The problem is Fiume or Zara built by the AI. You get the Iron and Wine north of Venice after the 2nd culture expansion anyway.(If Germany doesn't decide to build Essen 1tile NE of the wine)(which naming is totally off btw. unless there actually is/was a city called Essen in SW Austria, Innsbruck or so would be a better choice imo)

Portugal has a similar problem (with worse effects) by building Leiria on top of the pig NW of Lisboa(great they get the whale early..). I don't think I've ever seen Porto built by the AI. I've tried building Porto with Spain and letting it flip, but they build Leiria anyway :/

Spain kinda avoids building Madrid and is generally pretty dumb when it come's to placing it's other cities. (although they do build La Coruna now and then)

Yeah I've been frustrated with this as well.
Portugal should build Lisboa and Porto
I've been doing several Spain trials to see what the best combos are and the best (imo) seem to be:
Leon (W of Pig)
Toledo (W of Sheep)
Santander (2W of Clam)
Madrid (N of Pig)
Barcelona (keep)
Valencia (keep or move 1 tile south)
Sevilla (keep)
Murcia (S of Clam)
Pampalona (S of Stone)
Jaen (NE of Whaet)

It seems the Spanish do a lot stupider spots and end up with an extra 2 cities or so and tons of overlap (overlap is a huge trend of this mod)

Other civs with overlap issues:
Ottomans (founding capital)
Sweden (founding Capital)
Venezia of course (And Northwest Italy)
Bulgaria
The Netherlands

 

[3Miro]

Changing the Venetian spawn location will actually hurt the AI. The current location is incredibly well defended, only Venetian units can get in and out of the city by land and invaders can come only by sea. Considering how incompetent the AI is with respect to naval battles, this is huge advantage. Venice was like that from the very beginning of the mod and you are the first to dislike it. I will think about it some more, but I am disinclined to change this.

One the note of overlap. Overlap is not bad, two small cities are usually better than one big one. Part of the Portuguese and Bulgarian problems come from being pressed by foreign culture. When those two spawn, they have a lot of foreign culture around them. They culture-push later on, but it is too late to change the location of the cities. I am not sure we can do much about this.

 

[ezzlar]

At first I also liked the defensive position but Venetia is really a good guy in this mod and seldom gets involved in wars. And if they did, Venetia wouldnt be the target but rather the cities along the coast.

The thing I dont like is the two resources which are never used. Move them or move the capital!

 

[Daffy]

At first I also liked the defensive position but Venetia is really a good guy in this mod and seldom gets involved in wars. And if they did, Venetia wouldnt be the target but rather the cities along the coast.

The thing I dont like is the two resources which are never used. Move them or move the capital!

If you're referring to the iron and wine north of Venezia, you get them after culture expansion no. 2...

Verona (i think) gets both, if you build it.. (done so sometimes with Genua to annoy Venice) but I'd simply wait for Venice to grow, it's not like they need those two ressources(worked by the city).
Venice currently has a much better spot for their Capitol than many other civs. The only possible issue I see is that Venice has a chance of 'not' getting any iron. At least for a while.

 

[ezzlar]

Well, sure you get control over them but you cant use the nice hammer bonus. Besides, the AI tends to build a fort on the resources for some reason.

 

[3Miro]

Well, sure you get control over them but you cant use the nice hammer bonus. Besides, the AI tends to build a fort on the resources for some reason.

Forts give you access to the resource. With a Fort, you can get both the resource and defensive bonus guarding it. Forts are also good for getting resources on islands, since they count for naval trade passages.

If a resource is not with the city radius, building a Fort is the better option.

 

[Daffy]

forts also usually don't get razed by barbarians or such

 

[AbsintheRed]

3Miro, I gave this a few more thoughts, and actually I agree with the majority of people on this
The peninsula with only venetians able to acces it is very strange
And mostly unrealistic, Venice never had that kind of protection throughout history

If it's moved 1 tile NE, the rivers and marshes are more than enough protection for the city for good gameplay
Also the city would take a more accurate spot on the map

I'm not sure how the surrounding tiles should exactly be changed (maybe move marsh, etc.), but I strongly dislike the idea of keeping that peninsula

 

[3Miro]

It will stay for Beta 6, for Beta 7, we can change that to see how it will work.

 

[yogiebere]

alright comparing the two spots: If you don't fill in the water SE of the original city spot (i did in the picture), heres a direct comparison of whats different (what one has that the other doesnt). Iron cancels sulfur for how much it helps the city.
Old Spot: more water, 1 pig plain/hill, 1 plain/hill, cow (if you dont move the cow to the new spot)
New Spot: 1 more grass 1 more marsh 1 wine and 2 grass hills (one with coal)

The new spot isn't incredibly better, and Venezia could use the help - they are a rather weak civ right now

If you're saying the geography doesn't look quite right - I agree. But does having a jutting peninsula make sense either?