Venice

[Gazebo]

I mentioned this before and I'll reiterate: the Doge's Palace is not a UB. You never choose to build it. You don't get to choose when, where, how, or what to build it instead of. You don't tech to it, you don't build multiples of it, you don't rush it, you don't do anything to it. Its a UA that only applies to their capital. (I feel similarly about the American Hermitage, but at least you have to build the thing and pick a city)

In fact, Venice wouldn't do much with ANY UB at all, since the most you can do with a UB is invest in it in your puppets. What exciting gameplay.

The best thing for Venice is to get a UI. What I suggested before was a sort of trading post that claims tiles around it, can be built adjacent to your territory, and cannot be built adjacent to itself. This lets Venice claim luxury and strategic resources around it that the AI just refuses to settle. Nothing is more frustrating than being unable to make use of land at all because you can't settle it and nobody else is bothering.

Alternatively, make it buildable on any unclaimed coast that ISNT adjacent to your territory, and if possible let newly founded cities steal its land as well as purchase the land at a high cost like the American UA.

I'm listening. Unfortunately, we'd need art for this, which we don't have (and unlike my middling icon art, I can't even begin to do 3d art).

G

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I'm listening. Unfortunately, we'd need art for this, which we don't have (and unlike my middling icon art, I can't even begin to do 3d art).

G

Can you recycle any scenario art like the Motte and Bailey?

 

[Atlas627]

I'm listening. Unfortunately, we'd need art for this, which we don't have (and unlike my middling icon art, I can't even begin to do 3d art).

G

Well if its possible to program either of the 2 trading post ideas without too much hassle, you could always take the village model and change its colors or something as placeholder art while we see if this is any fun at all in a beta.

In the meantime, someone can make art. Another option is to see if the old village model is still in the game files. Its not being used for anything right? Looks like a small city if I remember correctly?

 

[Funak]

What if we just let Venice settle cities and end this horrible OCC nonsense? =) As it is, Venice is the only auto-reroll civ for me.

I'm pretty much still in this camp, buying city-states is just not interesting to me. As I've explained earlier, they could really be based around puppets without having the MoV nonsense going for them.


It could actually tie pretty much all ideas in the thread together. You could have a UA based around making puppets stronger, and having puppets boost your capital. You could have a unique wonder or unique improvement and you could replace the MoV with the Great Galleas and get some decent warfare in there.

 

[Atlas627]

I'm pretty much still in this camp, buying city-states is just not interesting to me. As I've explained earlier, they could really be based around puppets without having the MoV nonsense going for them.


It could actually tie pretty much all ideas in the thread together. You could have a UA based around making puppets stronger, and having puppets boost your capital. You could have a unique wonder or unique improvement and you could replace the MoV with the Great Galleas and get some decent warfare in there.

2 things:

1) Not every civ has to be for you. This is a unique playstyle and should be preserved unless it is universally disliked or obviously detrimental to the game. Altering it is ok, but what you are suggesting is removing half of it.

2) The suggestions to boost puppets have nothing to do with Venice and would make no thematic sense. If you want a puppetmonger then you can edit the Huns, who already steal city names and like to found tons of random cities to get more ekis.

 

[Funak]

1) Not every civ has to be for you. This is a unique playstyle and should be preserved unless it is universally disliked or obviously detrimental to the game. Altering it is ok, but what you are suggesting is removing half of it.

First of all, it was not my suggestion this time, it was Gothic empire. Pointing fingers is fine but point them at the right person.

2) The suggestions to boost puppets have nothing to do with Venice and would make no thematic sense. If you want a puppetmonger then you can edit the Huns, who already steal city names and like to found tons of random cities to get more ekis.

Let me just point out that 'Merchants of Venice' and buying cities have equally nothing to do with Venice. The Merchant of Venice is a Shakespeare fairy tail and the Venetians gained their territory through warfare.

 

[Atlas627]

First of all, it was not my suggestion this time, it was Gothic empire. Pointing fingers is fine but point them at the right person.


Let me just point out that 'Merchants of Venice' and buying cities have equally nothing to do with Venice. The Merchant of Venice is a Shakespeare fairy tail and the Venetians gained their territory through warfare.

When I use the word "suggesting" I do not mean you came up with the idea, but you are still endorsing it. You are suggesting we use it.

I am well aware that 'Merchants of Venice' and buying cities have nothing to do with Venice, and that they gained their territory through warfare.

But what they did do was grab specific bits of land from weak foes and use them as naval bases to control trade. What is the closest thing to that? Paving the way for them to grab disparate City States. Do you expect Venice without any cities to build up an army to take a City State? No. So instead you let them buy them, which is more like blockading until they surrender. And it makes sense that the more powerful merchants Venice creates, the more they will be able and interested in working with or taking trading posts.

I am not talking about thematic from an aesthetic standpoint, I am talking about thematic from a gameplay standpoint. Making Venice a puppeteering warmonger is not at all appropriate.

 

[Funak]

When I use the word "suggesting" I do not mean you came up with the idea, but you are still endorsing it. You are suggesting we use it.

Yet you're attacking me about it instead of attacking him.

 

[Enginseer]

Just make it so that the Doge's Palace now acts a Merchant's Guild basically. All markets, custom houses, and banks provide gold and great merchant points in the Doge's Palace.

 

[Funak]

Just make it so that the Doge's Palace now acts a Merchant's Guild basically. All markets, custom houses, and banks provide gold and great merchant points in the Doge's Palace.

One of the main complaints have been the Doggiehouse not being interactive enough (as you start with it).

 

[Atlas627]

Yet you're attacking me about it instead of attacking him.

I had not read through the last 3 pages and saw you making an argument for it on this page, so I responded to it. If he made one that I saw I would respond to it as well.

I'm sorry if this seems like an attack. It was not meant to be.

 

[Taikavarpu]

If getting rid of Doge's Palace makes Venice too start dependent early on, we could move the free MoV to trade. A quicker MoV would help with the early game, because without the aid of extra science from Doge's Palace's, getting to sailing can actually take a while.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Gazebo suggested we come up with a Bank UB proposal. Why don't we focus on that.

 

[Funak]

Gazebo suggested we come up with a Bank UB proposal. Why don't we focus on that.

He said the Bank slot was open, he did not suggest using it and it certainly isn't a done deal.

I would prefer a market over it, mostly because the bank comes so late that the UA is going to need to be adjusted to help Venice early game. I guess a Caravansary could be a decent alternative, but that's also kinda late.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Is it not possible to get a UB earlier in the tech tree like some UUs are?

Because getting a Bank an Era early would be very beneficial.

 

[Atlas627]

He also said he thought the UI idea was worth looking at. Again, I think a UB for Venice is a waste of time, since all but 1 of their cities will be a puppet!

 

[Funak]

Is it not possible to get a UB earlier in the tech tree like some UUs are?

Because getting a Bank an Era early would be very beneficial.

Absolutely, the Steam mill unlocks 1 tech earlier than the factory.

Problem is that it's still too late, even a few techs earlier (and you can't really go further back than a few techs).
Market, Caravansary or possibly an earlier harbor are probably the best bets. Banking wasn't exactly Venice's strong suit, trade was.

He also said he thought the UI idea was worth looking at. Again, I think a UB for Venice is a waste of time, since all but 1 of their cities will be a puppet!

The UI is a whole lot more work than a UB however. You need art, purpose, niche 6 fitting techs

 

[Taikavarpu]

I agree with GamerKG in that a UB feels weird, because all your cities are puppets. That's why I am leaning towards a national wonder. Venice is supposed to be a centralized civ anyway.

A UI could also be interesting, if someone is able to create the model for it.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

For the UI idea, would it be feasible to use just the dock portion of the Feitoria and combine it with a small group of generic city structures?

I don't have any knowledge of 3d modeling, so I don't know what can be done using existing models.

 

[PurpleMentat]

I really like the idea of Venice having a UI Trading Post that can claim tiles. If the mechanics can be hammered out, I can likely get the artwork done by one of a couple buddies.