Venice

[Atlas627]

Guys, multiple UBs is just as boring as a single Doge Palace !

I think it could be fun if you had to choose between the multiple UBs, but as it stems from Venice's multiple landmarks, it wouldn't really make any sense.

It's basically only unlocking new yields on the doge Palace as you unlock techs (and this has been said already and ignored).
This brings basically no choice.

Not at all the same. The Palace you literally make zero choices about all game. It always exists and you always have only one of them. You don't choose when or where to build it, you don't tech to it, there's no opportunity cost or anything.

These buildings you tech to and you have to choose when to build. That alone is a significant difference.

Venice has one city, essentially, that can build World Wonders. One city that can hardbuild all the trade units to take advantage of the UA. At least currently, one city that really has to build all three guilds, and National Monument. Plus the various other National Wonders at least somewhat go best in Venice, and then all the regular buildings. Plus war units in the part of the game gold can't take care of that by itself. I don't like the idea of this one buildable city being locking into having to build another six or so buildings. If they're each worth building, the production cost won't be small I wouldn't think. I like the idea of this UB, I just think it goes best somewhere else tbh. A civ with a strong vibrant capital, but still has fully functional supportive cities around it that can handle more of the little things. Rome or England or The Aztecs etc.

If we're going to get rid of the Doge Palace, I would much prefer a UI, whether its a luxury one or a coast tiles one or something else that isn't just 'gain tiles'. People keep saying the Doge Palace is boring, and it leaves me confused. I really like the way it lets me choose basically whatever I path I want in the ancient era, combined with no settlers, I can chase wonders and build a conquest army from the jump. But if it must go, getting rid with something workers can put down in puppets would be a better replacement than the six buildings plan imo. Would change the puppets I choose, more luxuries or whatever, but that's relatively fine to me. As someone pointed out somewhere in this thread, I just played as the Dutch, and I made sure all of my cities had maximum river tiles. Same thing.

I have tried suggesting many UIs and they have all been shot down. If you can think of one that'd be great.

The Palace is boring because you make no choices regarding it. At all. Its a UA that gives yields in the capital. You don't build it, you don't tech to it, you have no opportunity cost. There's no interaction with it whatsoever.

 

[Funak]

I have tried suggesting many UIs and they have all been shot down. If you can think of one that'd be great.

As mentioned earlier, the two possible unused niches for improvements when it comes to unique improvements are:

1: Only buildable on top of luxuries

2: Only buildable on coast and not next to each other.


I guess technically you could design something around hills (and not next to each other) but otherwise most ideas area already taken.


I'm completely fine with designs based on either of those two options, but I really don't like the idea of a UI which's main purpose isn't yields. grabbing tiles, doubling luxuries, providing defense or building canals, I just don't see it. If the main goal isn't providing yields then you end up with enormous debates where the result still isn't satisfying to anyone (the Feitoria).

 

[Gazebo]

As mentioned earlier, the two possible unused niches for improvements when it comes to unique improvements are:

1: Only buildable on top of luxuries

2: Only buildable on coast and not next to each other.


I guess technically you could design something around hills (and not next to each other) but otherwise most ideas area already taken.


I'm completely fine with designs based on either of those two options, but I really don't like the idea of a UI which's main purpose isn't yields. grabbing tiles, doubling luxuries, providing defense or building canals, I just don't see it. If the main goal isn't providing yields then you end up with enormous debates where the result still isn't satisfying to anyone (the Feitoria).

Making a UI for a civ that has zero control over where it starts, and where it expands, is a really, really bad idea.

G

 

[Funak]

Making a UI for a civ that has zero control over where it starts, and where it expands, is a really, really bad idea.

Making a civ that has zero control over where it starts and where it expands is a really, really bad idea.

I can see the coastal thing being a problem there, as stated earlier all city-states aren't coastal, but then again as you've stated earlier, you don't care if a UI (feitoria) is buildable or not . This would actually be the exact same situation as the feitoria, which is the only reason I'm not one hundred percent sure about recommending it. Then again unlike the feitoria you actually get to choose which city-states you want to annex.


As for the building on top of luxuries part, I really don't see the problem, most cities have at least one luxury in range so the UI isn't going to be wasted.

 

[pandasnail]

I have tried suggesting many UIs and they have all been shot down. If you can think of one that'd be great.

The Palace is boring because you make no choices regarding it. At all. Its a UA that gives yields in the capital. You don't build it, you don't tech to it, you have no opportunity cost. There's no interaction with it whatsoever.

I don't have a fresh idea, no, but either the luxury idea or something that functionally replaces village seems fine to me. I know they got declined, but that doesn't mean I can't say I prefer them, and try to bring them back.

Making a UI for a civ that has zero control over where it starts, and where it expands, is a really, really bad idea.

G

Ok, so no coastal UI. But there's plenty of land luxuries, and abundant space for villages to go. And its not zero control, there's usually a few CS to pick from. And choosing who to war with. I just think locking in one specific city with six specific buildings at six specific techs is even moreso a bad idea for Venice. One NW maybe, or even something like Enginseer's Upgrade mod, where you pick from some small, modest choices here and there. Still too much for me, really, but that kinda stuff would at least be cheaper than regular buildings, and not set production back the way six truly useful buildings would have to. Picking between x culture and x science wouldn't be amazing, but if yall are determined to get rid of the Doge for a building.

 

[Gazebo]

Here's a thought: what if the Doge's Palace wasn't a palace replacement, but came later (perhaps as a unique national monument or heroic epic). Once built, you'd have the choice of constructing one of X unique buildings in your capital, each with a specific gameplay focus. So, instead of X stacking buildings, you'd have one UB, and then a UB 'enhancer' that allows you to adapt to a playstyle.

One could get votes, another some trade routes, another a war boost, etc.

Allows for some mid-game flexibility and choice without making poor Venice beholden to the map's RNG and the RNG of city-state placement.

G

 

[Atlas627]

Ok so time to brainstorm some ideas!

Doge's Palace: Reduce the extra base yields it provides somewhat. Remove the +GP production, tourism, and anti-spy elements. Add "Whenever borders expand in this city, gain +15 food scaling with era" (the Doge originally had full control over Venice, and as a City State the objective was always to increase the wealth of the city itself, represented as more territory and more productive people)

The Great Council: Unlocks at Trade. +2 science, +15 science scaling with era when a building is built in this city (The Great Council of Wise Men took control of all legislative duties in the city. As members of the noble houses, improving the power of the upper class was paramount, represented as more industry and cutting-edge tech to capitalize on)

The Council of Ten: Unlocks at Civil Service. +10 production, +10 defense. Advanced spy actions can't be taken in this city. (The Council of Ten had unprecedented executive power in comparison to the rest of the government. Originally intended as a temporary stopgap against insurrection, the Council of Ten expanded to protect against corruption, espionage, and even started to take on basic legislative duties because they could actually get things done)

Murano Glassworks: Unlocks at Metal Casting. +4 production, +4 culture, +4 science, +4 gold. Doubles all luxuries in this city. (Venetian glassblowers were famous across Europe, and because none were allowed to leave the city, very few other places were able to match. Byzantine refugees with craft skills were taken in, which cause widespread learning and art, known as the Renaissance)

St. Mark's Basilica: Unlocks at Theology. +10 faith, +10 culture, and majority religion pressure emanates at double speed (the Basilica was the center of the state religion, and unlike other Catholic nations, Venice controlled its own church for most of its history. Also Venice needs help with faith and spread in-game)

Venetian Ghetto: Unlocks at Writing. Has a Merchant slot. Trade routes to and from this city provide +3 gold for both parties. (The Ghetto was home to one of Europe's largest and most successful Jewish populations, with familial merchant connections across Europe and the Middle East.)

Venetian Arsenal: Unlocks at Sailing. +5 production, +40% production of naval units, Naval units built here receive +15xp (the Arsenal was a mass-production system which resulted in quick building and repair of ships but also enabled better ships to be built and the expertise to build them to be easily taught)

Gondolieri Guild: Unlocks at Guilds. +15% GP production, and all Venetian UBs provide +2 tourism. (originally, Gondolas were used as the main mode of transportation around the city, and were covered for privacy of their high-class passengers. Nowadays they are one of the main tourist attractions for the city, which is why the covers have been removed)

Grand Canal (we can rename the World Project right?): Unlocks at Engineering. +4 production, +4 gold. All GP improvements worked by this city provide +3 food, +3 culture, and +3 tourism. (the Grand Canal provided easy access to the inside of the city, increasing productivity as goods could be unloaded directly to their destinations. This has allowed for many amazing structures in a dense area, causing cultural intermingling and nowadays tourism. The density is represented with food.)


Just some ideas. Obviously the yields need to be balanced, especially against the hammer cost of the buildings. I would expect these buildings to cost about as much as a National Wonder.

Personally I think its fine to use all of these, but if we were to use them all we should probably reduce bloat a bit. The Doge's Palace doesn't need anything interactive on it, so that can be removed. Ghetto should probs be reduced to +2 gold each so it doesn't completely overshadow the Colossus. The Grand Canal probably doesn't need to provide anything on its own, just boosts to GP improvements, so that should be adjusted to +2 food, +2 hammers, and +2 tourism on GP improvements. The Arsenal probably needs only +3 production for being such an early building. St Mark's Basilica can have 2 art/artifact slots instead of the culture (Venice will be hurting for slots if they don't expand, and if they do this building is now pretty meh). The Murano Glassworks can be reduced to +2 of each of those yields since doubling luxuries should give them a monopoly and a lot to trade.

The idea, if we use all of them, is to have them all be specific situational bonuses. The Arsenal is pretty useless if you don't want to build a navy but is great if you do. The Basilica is pretty useless if you don't have a religion and can fill the art slots, but is great if you can do both. The Ghetto is pretty useless if you're already swimming in gold, but is great if you can get other people to trade with you for the bonus. The Glassworks is great if you can get a monopoly and pretty meh if you can't. The Grand Canal is great if you manage to have lots of GP improvements in the capital, but terrible otherwise.

If they are priced appropriately and are situational bonuses, it will be impossible to use them all to max efficiency. Instead you will use a few of them very well and not waste your time on the others or you will use them all decently but pay a lot to access that power.

Edit: I'm also fine with what Gazebo proposed while I was typing this. Could buff up the buildings but only let you build one.

 

[PurpleMentat]

Here's a thought: what if the Doge's Palace wasn't a palace replacement, but came later (perhaps as a unique national monument or heroic epic). Once built, you'd have the choice of constructing one of X unique buildings in your capital, each with a specific gameplay focus. So, instead of X stacking buildings, you'd have one UB, and then a UB 'enhancer' that allows you to adapt to a playstyle.

One could get votes, another some trade routes, another a war boost, etc.

Allows for some mid-game flexibility and choice without making poor Venice beholden to the map's RNG and the RNG of city-state placement.

G

This would be a fun and totally unique UB. I like it more than the chain of buildings and more than a UI that you'll reroll until you get the right conditions for. I never want to be in a situation where rerolling a starting Whales monopoly is the right decision!

There's even kind of a precedent in the Celts. Venice has all these unique buildings IRL, build one. Celts have all of these gods in their Pantheon, pick one.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

This would be a fun and totally unique UB. I like it more than the chain of buildings and more than a UI that you'll reroll until you get the right conditions for. I never want to be in a situation where rerolling a starting Whales monopoly is the right decision!

There's even kind of a precedent in the Celts. Venice has all these unique buildings IRL, build one. Celts have all of these gods in their Pantheon, pick one.

Good point.

 

[Funak]

This would be a fun and totally unique UB. I like it more than the chain of buildings and more than a UI that you'll reroll until you get the right conditions for. I never want to be in a situation where rerolling a starting Whales monopoly is the right decision!

There's even kind of a precedent in the Celts. Venice has all these unique buildings IRL, build one. Celts have all of these gods in their Pantheon, pick one.

I like it more than a chain of buildings, but it seems like a whole lot of unncessary work (and probably way too much choice). This might sound a little weird, but I'm really not that much into the whole multiple choice thing, a clear defined theme is better in that case.

Also I'm still not a fan of unique national wonders which this is still going to be.

 

[JungleBucks]

Here's a thought: what if the Doge's Palace wasn't a palace replacement, but came later (perhaps as a unique national monument or heroic epic). Once built, you'd have the choice of constructing one of X unique buildings in your capital, each with a specific gameplay focus. So, instead of X stacking buildings, you'd have one UB, and then a UB 'enhancer' that allows you to adapt to a playstyle.

One could get votes, another some trade routes, another a war boost, etc.

Allows for some mid-game flexibility and choice without making poor Venice beholden to the map's RNG and the RNG of city-state placement.

G

So it'd be like chooses a Great Person, or a bonus as a Pathfinder. I like that a lot actually. This would be extra cool if the bonuses are named after landmarks, monuments, and historic buildings.

If I could make an immediate suggestion as a potential bonus. Some kind of bonus that gives City-States an immediate City-Connection, to remove the worry of your massive roads being broken when someone settles between your land, or maybe something that reduces the cost of roads...or both!

 

[Moi Magnus]

Here's a thought: what if the Doge's Palace wasn't a palace replacement, but came later (perhaps as a unique national monument or heroic epic). Once built, you'd have the choice of constructing one of X unique buildings in your capital, each with a specific gameplay focus. So, instead of X stacking buildings, you'd have one UB, and then a UB 'enhancer' that allows you to adapt to a playstyle.

One could get votes, another some trade routes, another a war boost, etc.

Allows for some mid-game flexibility and choice without making poor Venice beholden to the map's RNG and the RNG of city-state placement.

G

I like this idea.
Some ideas of effect (some of them are strong enought to be alone, others need to be combined or added to some flat yields) :

Diplomatic effects :
+ 1 vote for each 8 CS in the game.
+ 1 vote for each 2 allied CS
+ Can always make a proposition
+ Can make one additional proposition (if multiple propositions are possibles)
+ Merchant specialist slot

Cultural effects :
+ More tourism from trade route.
+ More tourism from historical events.
+ Slot of great works
+ Artist / Musician / Writer specialist slot
+ Can take social policies without era restriction.

Scientific effects :
+ Scientist slot
+ % of some yields added to science
+ 1 science per pop
+ greatly reduce cost of tech that at least one other civ know

Militaristic effects :
+ New units +15XP, every current unit +15XP
+ Gain 4 iron and 4 horses (and later 4 of each other strategic ressource)
+ All units gain +1 MVT
+ Unit use two time less MVT points when moving along a trade route
+ Unit gain promotion quicker
+ When an historical event occur, each city you control claim one tile.

Religious effects :
+ Free great prophet
+ Has bonus from its official religion as if it was the founder (and enhancer), and the capital was the hoy city.
+ The city (Venice) has the effects of all folower belief and pantheon belief of religions present in it.

Production effects :
+ Engineer slot
+ When of production is finished, gain 10% of the prod for the next production (in the same way aqueduc preserve some food).
+ Mine and Manufactories gain +1 food.

There is probably a lot of other possibilities.

 

[PurpleMentat]

I think the possibilities should be limited to what matches Venice thematically: military, religion, mercantilism, and politics. Mercantilism is pretty much covered by double trade routes, so can be left out. Politics is likely best represented through Culture and/or City State influence. Religion is boring, extra faith and pressure. Could be made interesting with more effort. Military could focus on naval, experience, and/or cheaper unit purchases?

 

[pandasnail]

Oooh, this sounds much more fun, I like it, and some solid ideas from Magnus.

One other thing: Do puppets still completely refuse to build barracks-line buildings? Now that its a science building as well, they probably should at least consider it.

 

[Sendaf]

I like Gazbos suggestion but heres another

Completing each policy branch allows you to expand the starting doggie palace by "building" a new wing of the palace. Say completing authority opens the training yard expansion which gives units +X xp when built. Completing rationalism lets you build the palace academy wing giving a science bonus etc etc etc...

This would represent the palace physically expanding with the influence and culture of Venice to incude thins the culture considers important. Completing a branch makes a "palace expansion project" buildable (equal to a national monument in production) you only gain the bonuses after the expansion to your palace is complete

This gives you more choice during the game and also limits Venice to only getting a few extra bonus throughout the game without inundating your only real city with too many more things (usually3) to build. However I dot think my idea is as clean and concise as G's.

 

[Gazebo]

Oooh, this sounds much more fun, I like it, and some solid ideas from Magnus.

One other thing: Do puppets still completely refuse to build barracks-line buildings? Now that its a science building as well, they probably should at least consider it.

No, they don't.

G

 

[Taikavarpu]

Gazebo's latest idea seems pretty good. Finding a solution that everyone is going to love, is not going to happen. The recent 10+ pages of arguing are a proof of that. I think we (Gazebo) should just choose one idea and go with it. Otherwise this is going to be a never ending debate about what is interesting and what isn't. We'll be stuck with the stupid Doge's Palace, and that is the worst option out of them all.

 

[Gazebo]

Gazebo's latest idea seems pretty good. Finding a solution that everyone is going to love, is not going to happen. The recent 10+ pages of arguing are a proof of that. I think we (Gazebo) should just choose one idea and go with it. Otherwise this is going to be a never ending debate about what is interesting and what isn't. We'll be stuck with the stupid Doge's Palace, and that is the worst option out of them all.

Agreed. Since Venice isn't in a terrible spot, though, let's give it a day or two. Right now the Palace NW -> choice of x buildings model is the current selection, so those who are interested, please assist me in designing the other buildings. For the sake of simplicity, let's limit it to three:

• One CS Diplo Building
• One Military Building
• One Economic Building

G

 

[Atlas627]

Well if we had to choose exactly 3, one diplomatic, one military, and one economic, it would probably have to be

Murano Glassworks
St. Mark's Basilica
Venetian Arsenal

For ideas I'm going to try and combine the various effects I suggested for the huge set of buildings and maybe add one or two because we have more power to work with now that they are mutually exclusive.

Doge's Palace - NW available at Civil Service (this makes some thematic sense and is about the time when you'd run out of other Venetian things to do like buying city states or being ahead in early game), not sure how much pop to require with the new scaling. Merchant specialist slot, +2 of all base yields, +15% GP, and Advanced Spy actions can't be taken in this city. Choose an additional bonus from the following 3 buildings:

Murano Glassworks - Artist specialist slot, Doubles all luxuries near the city, Trade Routes to and from this city provide +1 gold and +1 science to both parties, GP improvements worked by this city provide +2 food and +2 tourism

Venetian Arsenal - Engineer specialist slot, +15% production in the city, +40% production when building Naval Units, Naval units receive +15xp, +10 defense in city

St. Mark's Basilica - Civil Servant specialist slot (scientist if you don't have CS Diplo mod), +1 vote for every CS with your majority religion, religion spreads from this city at double speed, 2 Art/Artifact slots, +5 faith


How do these sound? Obviously the numbers can be tweaked. I think I used effects that already exist on buildings except for +1 vote for CS with majority religion and GP improvements get yields. I can think of something to replace those if necessary.

Edit: Also I'm worried that a puppet might start building this and lock the other cities out of it. Can we still make this require the Palace?

 

[tompliss]

One question, to begin :
Would it be possible to have the CS Diplo building provide Papers ?
(asking because Papers come from an "aside" from the mod, but is really the "bad" side of Venice, because of having limited number of chanceries because of their usually low number of cities)