Venice

[Atlas627]

They connect since last patch, I saw indicator on my GP recommending I settle him on Perfume, did it and to my surprise it connected.

Well that's interesting news.

Doge's Palace is a bad idea - you are a Doge and have a Palace in your starting city, it should be named differently.

Alright let's call it the Great Council then.

The UNW "Random Venetian Landmark" that unlocks the choice of those three pathways should be unlocked at any second row Ancient or, if it's too strong or unfitting, first row Classical tech to add flexibility - you want to go Writing first? You unlock it. You want to go Maths? You unlock it. Lots of choice, flexible.

I suggested putting it at Civil Service for 3 reasons: The first is that it makes thematic sense there. The second is that that's about when Venice runs out of uniquely Venetian things to do now that they've bought some CS and GM costs are high. The third is that having it late allows us to give it power. The power level of your suggestion seems reasonable given that you unlock it at the beginning of the game.

Its stats should be, let's say, +2 to all yields (Tourism excluded), cost about as much as Wall or a bit more and grants one of those three as a free building. That's how I envision it.

Seems cheap to build for those bonuses at that tech level. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing.

Great Galeass is love, Great Galeass is life. With City Raider on all ships it'd be good for naval aggression, and if GG got some cool promotion then Arsenal would be a very cool thing - it'd never obsolete for the Great Galeass' promotion (and city raider from the VArsenal) would live on in its upgraded descendants. Arsenal could get more bonuses if it's still weaker, like +2 Science.
If VArsenal is to exist, Great Galeass should join it.

The Great Galeass isn't actually unique at all though in-game. If we give it some unique promotions that stay on upgrade then maybe this would be worth considering. Also we'd have to readjust the GG for becoming available so soon, unless you still want to have to plan ahead 2 eras, which is the opposite of flexible. I still really dislike the idea.

Glassworks seems fine at two Glass found, +15% Merchant Rate, Merchant Spec, +2Gold or +1/2 Tourism per turn for each Luxury (and Strategic Resource?) worked anywhere in your empire. Could get base +2Culture on top of all that.

Its nice to have one of the buildings be good at expansion. I would think that's the Arsenal. Shouldn't one of the buildings be good if you want to stay small?

Same with Backstabworks/NameNotFound, could get a bonus that makes Great Diplomats slightly stronger if you've transgressed against the CS and they're still upset (to signify the Pope was mad at Venice for a week after Constantinople and actually called them all heretics, only to change his mind a month later and un-exclude them from the church) to make Venice encouraged to be evil and manipulative.

I don't think that would help. If I piss off CS on purpose its because I plan to buy them immediately after.

 

[JungleBucks]

They connect since last patch, I saw indicator on my GP recommending I settle him on Perfume, did it and to my surprise it connected.

If VArsenal is to exist, Great Galeass should join it.

Glassworks seems fine at two Glass found, +15% Merchant Rate, Merchant Spec, +2Gold or +1/2 Tourism per turn for each Luxury (and Strategic Resource?) worked anywhere in your empire. Could get base +2Culture on top of all that.

I agree in part with both of these. Great Galleas making a return for the Arsenal is an obvious choice, and the Glassworks should provide Glass instead of doubling luxuries. That just makes sense, and you'd be guaranteed a Global Monopoly for having the world's only source of glass anyways.

 

[Funak]

I agree in part with both of these. Great Galleas making a return for the Arsenal is an obvious choice, and the Glassworks should provide Glass instead of doubling luxuries. That just makes sense, and you'd be guaranteed a Global Monopoly for having the world's only source of glass anyways.

Actually, I'm not quite sure that's how it works.

If you spawn the glass under the city I think you'd get the monopoly, but if you just add it to your luxuries it wouldn't register as a monopoly unless there are other sources of glass on the map (like how great admiral resources don't provide you with monopolies)
Spawning the glass under the city would create a whole bunch of other problems, like overwriting existing resources under the city.

 

[Atlas627]

I think I'm going not going to answer this to avoid provoking you further

That's the same thing. Instead of saying "this sucks" you said "I would tell you, but what I would say is 'this sucks' and it would make you upset".

Give Arsenal the Great Galeass and it's more or less fine but those seem far weaker than mine? I can't see a single thing they're better at, except for -15% GP on doge palace (which can be easily added to my doge's placae or whatever it's gonna be called because I just forgot to mention it, as well as no advanced spy actions).

I'm confused now. What I suggested before was too powerful but now its weaker than what you've suggested. So what was the problem? Do you want to try and help pinpoint exactly where between those two is a good balance?

I also agree that my new suggestion is far weaker than yours, not only because I reduced the bonuses and removed some, but also because your suggestion is to have it be available at second-row Ancient or Classical.

I'll try to do something in between, since apparently the strong version is so out of the park I get called a lunatic but the weak version is so weak that its not worth finding a balance.

 

[Gazebo]

It is a pretty fitting idea (non-CSD it could just increase influence for Gold from upset CS) but I understand. It's not like it needs that feature, the building is pretty strong without it.



It was pretty ironic too considering the crusades were a direct result of Turkish attacks on Constantinople, looting of trade caravans and lots of enslavement and rapes against Byzantine (and other Europeans too) done by them, further encouraged by pretty much the same stuff performed by Saracens on Iberian peninsula.

This silly crusade has done exactly what the crusades were meant to prevent, weakened Bysantium permanently and were the reason it fell to the Turks later. All this chaos just because of one greedy blind Venetian Doge wanted a bit more gold in his coffer.

It'll need to be a replacement thing, not a 'this building is garbage without this CSD change' element.

G

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Well that's interesting news.



Alright let's call it the Great Council then.

Okay.

I suggested putting it at Civil Service for 3 reasons: The first is that it makes thematic sense there. The second is that that's about when Venice runs out of uniquely Venetian things to do now that they've bought some CS and GM costs are high. The third is that having it late allows us to give it power. The power level of your suggestion seems reasonable given that you unlock it at the beginning of the game.

At civil service I guess your initial offers would be more or less okay, but isn't that too late? Venice would have lots of problems getting nothing since that late on.

The Great Galeass isn't actually unique at all though in-game. If we give it some unique promotions that stay on upgrade then maybe this would be worth considering. Also we'd have to readjust the GG for becoming available so soon, unless you still want to have to plan ahead 2 eras, which is the opposite of flexible. I still really dislike the idea.

Great Galeass would replace the Galeass and be unlocked on Guilds as the regular one. It may not be very flexible, granted, but

Its nice to have one of the buildings be good at expansion. I would think that's the Arsenal. Shouldn't one of the buildings be good if you want to stay small?

Glassworks is decent for small, so is the third one without name as it grants CS diplomacy bonuses.

I don't think that would help. If I piss off CS on purpose its because I plan to buy them immediately after.

It's just a flavour idea that doesn't need to be implemented.

I agree in part with both of these. Great Galleas making a return for the Arsenal is an obvious choice, and the Glassworks should provide Glass instead of doubling luxuries. That just makes sense, and you'd be guaranteed a Global Monopoly for having the world's only source of glass anyways.

This guy knows what he's talking about. Great Galleass is Nicolas Cage of Unique Units - if you put him initially, he should also be in the sequel. Nicolas Cage is the best actor ever though and GG was just decent, which is why GG would need a buff here or there.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

That's the same thing. Instead of saying "this sucks" you said "I would tell you, but what I would say is 'this sucks' and it would make you upset".



I'm confused now. What I suggested before was too powerful but now its weaker than what you've suggested. So what was the problem? Do you want to try and help pinpoint exactly where between those two is a good balance?

I also agree that my new suggestion is far weaker than yours, not only because I reduced the bonuses and removed some, but also because your suggestion is to have it be available at second-row Ancient or Classical.

I'll try to do something in between, since apparently the strong version is so out of the park I get called a lunatic but the weak version is so weak that its not worth finding a balance.

I... never called you a lunatic? The previous version was too strong but I also didn't notice it was meant for almost Renaissance. It'd be pretty weird nevertheless, your Venice would be very weak initially and then suddenly get a syringe shot of great yields that is a bit too much. I feel Venice needs its shot earlier but in a smaller amount, perhaps a middle ground should be reached? That achieved by having the new Council unlocked at Classical/late Ancient that gives you the free building choice only upon reaching Medieval if that is needed.

It'll need to be a replacement thing, not a 'this building is garbage without this CSD change' element.

G

The building seemed pretty strong even without it, that's what I've meant - this feature can be scrapped.

But if replacement is preferred, maybe influence for Gold is increased by X% if the CS is upset at you for no-CSD, regular "diplomats/envoys/etc are stronger against upset ones" for CSD.

 

[Atlas627]

Trying again. I would appreciate actual feedback (thanks Enrico).

(Generic) Great Council - Unlocks at Civil Service. +15% GP production in this city, Advanced Spy Actions can't be taken in this city, during Golden Ages this city produces +10% yields. Choose one of the following:

(Military) Venetian Arsenal - Unlocks the Great Galeass, +10% production in this city, +6 defense in this city, Engineer specialist slot, naval units built here receive the "Venetian Craftsmanship" ability, which is +1 movement, +10% combat strength.

(Culture) Murano Glassworks - Artist specialist slot, 2 Art/Artifact slots (with +5 science if both filled with own works, one each), GP improvements get +2 tourism in this city.

(Diplomatic) Venetian Ghetto - Merchant specialist slot, Trade Routes to CS provide +1 influence per turn from this city, Doubles luxuries in the city, +1 vote for every 2 CS allies


How about this?

 

[Gazebo]

Trying again. I would appreciate actual feedback (thanks Enrico).

(Generic) Great Council - Unlocks at Civil Service. +15% GP production in this city, Advanced Spy Actions can't be taken in this city, during Golden Ages this city produces +10% yields. Choose one of the following:

(Military) Venetian Arsenal - Unlocks the Great Galeass, +10% production in this city, +6 defense in this city, Engineer specialist slot, naval units built here receive the "Venetian Craftsmanship" ability, which is +1 movement, +10% combat strength.

(Culture) Murano Glassworks - Artist specialist slot, 2 Art/Artifact slots (with +5 science if both filled with own works, one each), GP improvements get +2 tourism in this city.

(Diplomatic) Venetian Ghetto - Merchant specialist slot, Trade Routes to CS provide +1 influence per turn from this city, Doubles luxuries in the city, +1 vote for every 2 CS allies


How about this?

Arsenal looks fine to me
Murano looks fine, if a bit weak - +2 tourism/+1 culture might be better.
Ghetto - the problem with links to CS like that is that Venice can cripple itself. I think it'd make more sense for Venice to get something a bit more synergistic with the UA.

Perhaps: 'Every 100GPT grants you 1 extra vote in the WC, capping at 5. +5 Gold for outgoing/incoming trade routes.'

Also, in the interest of art work and the (stupid) connotations of ghetto in pop culture with ethnicity and poverty, perhaps 'Medici Bank' or 'Ducat Mint' instead of Ghetto?

G

 

[Atlas627]

I... never called you a lunatic? The previous version was too strong but I also didn't notice it was meant for almost Renaissance. It'd be pretty weird nevertheless, your Venice would be very weak initially and then suddenly get a syringe shot of great yields that is a bit too much. I feel Venice needs its shot earlier but in a smaller amount, perhaps a middle ground should be reached? That achieved by having the new Council unlocked at Classical/late Ancient that gives you the free building choice only upon reaching Medieval if that is needed.

Was referring to Funak calling the idea insane with no useful feedback.

So I'm not sure how weak Venice would be, honestly. Snowballing is hard to estimate, and they are so dependent upon the map that its hard to tell what their average strength is. I think Venice spends most of its early game trying to figure out where and how to use their Great Merchants, but once empires are filled in they just send out trade routes for yields or conquer like everybody else. This is why I suggested Civil Service.

I understand what you're saying about them needing a smaller boost sooner, which is why I was a big fan of the UB line which unlocked different bonuses at different times. I could see the Great Council at Philosophy and reduce the bonuses from what I suggested.

Alternatively, as you suggested, we could put the Great Council at Writing and move around which bonuses you get so they're actually useful at that point, and then let you pick the extra building upon entering Renaissance and make those powerful but specific. I'm fine with that if its doable.

 

[Atlas627]

Arsenal looks fine to me
Murano looks fine, if a bit weak - +2 tourism/+1 culture might be better.
Ghetto - the problem with links to CS like that is that Venice can cripple itself. I think it'd make more sense for Venice to get something a bit more synergistic with the UA.

Perhaps: 'Every 100GPT grants you 1 extra vote in the WC, capping at 5. +5 Gold for outgoing/incoming trade routes.'

Also, in the interest of art work and the (stupid) connotations of ghetto in pop culture with ethnicity and poverty, perhaps 'Medici Bank' or 'Ducat Mint' instead of Ghetto?

G

If its the yields that are weak or strong and not the inherent attributes itself, give whatever you want a try and we can balance from there.

I understand the problem of crippling itself, but I assumed one would just choose a different building. Of course, plans change and I don't know how well the AI would handle such a contradiction.

My thought was that the Military building was good for expansion, the Culture building good for staying small (as culture victors do), and the Diplomatic one would be flexible/neutral. Giving votes for global gold seems neutral enough, but it definitely needs the cap and I was trying to avoid that for Funak's sake. +5 gold for incoming/outgoing trade seems to be economic not diplomatic and also completely overwhelm the Colossus, but some economic bonuses are fine (and flexible).

Not a fan of using Medici Bank for a Venice UB, so Ducat Mint is preferable imo.

So reworking the Ducat Mint a bit (and editing the Glassworks) leads me to suggest:

Murano Glassworks - up to +3 tourism, which is what I was going to suggest but didn't want to have the whole idea thrown out for using too big a number

Ducat Mint - Merchant Slot, Doubles luxuries in the city, receive 1 vote per 100 net gpt capping at 5, All Trade Routes give +3 gold for both parties in this city

Or something similar.

And was it possible to do what Enrico suggested and have the Great Council come earlier but these subsequent buildings later?

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Trying again. I would appreciate actual feedback (thanks Enrico).

(Generic) Great Council - Unlocks at Civil Service. +15% GP production in this city, Advanced Spy Actions can't be taken in this city, during Golden Ages this city produces +10% yields. Choose one of the following:

(Military) Venetian Arsenal - Unlocks the Great Galeass, +10% production in this city, +6 defense in this city, Engineer specialist slot, naval units built here receive the "Venetian Craftsmanship" ability, which is +1 movement, +10% combat strength.

(Culture) Murano Glassworks - Artist specialist slot, 2 Art/Artifact slots (with +5 science if both filled with own works, one each), GP improvements get +2 tourism in this city.

(Diplomatic) Venetian Ghetto - Merchant specialist slot, Trade Routes to CS provide +1 influence per turn from this city, Doubles luxuries in the city, +1 vote for every 2 CS allies


How about this?

Seems fine but I still think Council of Ten should get +2 base yields to help Venice out and be unlocked way earlier than that ( maybe Writing, but it could be put in some 2nd row Ancient) with the free building choice being automatically unlocked upon reaching Medieval era or Guilds to allow Venice time to think about which building would fit them more (and to make it more fitting time period wise).

Give Arsenal a tiny buff to 15% production though or it'll be too weak.

I think Glassworks should give Venice a free Glass under the city though, I don't think any civ spawns directly on a resource anyway.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I've been busy this weekend; just popping in to check how things are shaping up. Thismlooks really good and I'm excited to try the new Venice.

 

[Gazebo]

If its the yields that are weak or strong and not the inherent attributes itself, give whatever you want a try and we can balance from there.

I understand the problem of crippling itself, but I assumed one would just choose a different building. Of course, plans change and I don't know how well the AI would handle such a contradiction.

My thought was that the Military building was good for expansion, the Culture building good for staying small (as culture victors do), and the Diplomatic one would be flexible/neutral. Giving votes for global gold seems neutral enough, but it definitely needs the cap and I was trying to avoid that for Funak's sake. +5 gold for incoming/outgoing trade seems to be economic not diplomatic and also completely overwhelm the Colossus, but some economic bonuses are fine (and flexible).

Not a fan of using Medici Bank for a Venice UB, so Ducat Mint is preferable imo.

So reworking the Ducat Mint a bit (and editing the Glassworks) leads me to suggest:

Murano Glassworks - up to +3 tourism, which is what I was going to suggest but didn't want to have the whole idea thrown out for using too big a number

Ducat Mint - Merchant Slot, Doubles luxuries in the city, receive 1 vote per 100 net gpt capping at 5, All Trade Routes give +3 gold for both parties in this city

Or something similar.

And was it possible to do what Enrico suggested and have the Great Council come earlier but these subsequent buildings later?

Oh sure, the buildings can spawn whenever. Just need to choose a tech for the Great Council. Heck, we could even toss the 'free MoV on Sailing' and have the MoV spawn when you build the Great Council instead. Put the Great Council at Trade, and then put everything else in the Renaissance.

G

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Oh sure, the buildings can spawn whenever. Just need to choose a tech for the Great Council. Heck, we could even toss the 'free MoV on Sailing' and have the MoV spawn when you build the Great Council instead. Put the Great Council at Trade, and then put everything else in the Renaissance.

G

Cool idea with the MoV but I still feel the free buildings should unlock at Medieval or Guilds at latest, not Renaissance (otherwise the Great Galeass unlock will be a bit outdated)

 

[Funak]

Was referring to Funak calling the idea insane with no useful feedback.

You really won't drop it? I don't think there is a nice way to explain this, but whatever, I'll just go for it.

(Generic) Great Council - Unlocks at Civil Service. +15% GP production in this city, Advanced Spy Actions can't be taken in this city, during Golden Ages this city produces +10% yields. Choose one of the following:

(Military) Unlocks the Great Galeass +10% production in this city, +6 defense in this city, Engineer specialist slot, naval units built here receive the "Venetian Craftsmanship" ability, which is +1 movement, +10% combat strength.

(Culture) Murano Glassworks - Artist specialist slot, 2 Art/Artifact slots (with +5 science if both filled with own works, one each), GP improvements get +2 tourism in this city.

(Diplomatic) Venetian Ghetto - Merchant specialist slot, Trade Routes to CS provide +1 influence per turn from this city, Doubles luxuries in the city, +1 vote for every 2 CS allies

I'll break it down for you.


Military:

+10% Production
+15% GPP
Immune to spy actions
+10% all yields during GA
+Engineer
+6 defense
+unique promotion
+an additional UU

A flat 10% increase to production is as much as you get from a copper-monopoly, even if it is just locally, that's the most powerful monopoly-effect in the game.
15% GPP is three fifths of a national monument
On top of that you're immune to enemy spy-action which is an buffed up version of the Mandir effect.
You're getting two thirds of the Mandate of heaven founder belief
A pimped up version of the great lighthouse
An extra UU, out of nowhere
a specialist and +6 city-defense
This would be crazy if it straight up replaced another good national wonder, but it doesn't, it just adds more.


Culture

+15% GPP
+10% all yields during GA
Immune to spy actions
+2 Tourism from great tile improvements
+Artist
+2 Art/artifact slots

This isn't anywhere near as crazy as the one above, actually bordering on being completely terrible, and can in no way actually compete with either of the others, no matter what you're going for.


Diplomatic
+15% GPP
+10% all yields during GA
Immune to spy actions
Trade routes to CS provide +1 influence per turn
Doubled luxuries
+Merchant
+1vote for every 2 CS ally


15% GPP is still three fifths of a national monument
You're still immune to enemy spy-action which is an buffed up version of the Mandir effect.
Still getting two thirds of the Mandate of heaven founder belief
Extra influence from trade-routes isn't that bad, until you realize how it stacks with Merchant Confederacy and pretty much ensures you're going to have as many city-state allies as you have trade-routes, and Venice have a lot of trade-routes.
Doubled luxuries is a really powerful effect, it could probably fit in on a Unique wonder, but that would be the main selling point of the wonder and would probably only be accompanied by some flat yields.
An extra merchant slot is fine
You're topping the whole thing off by giving Venice the German UA, I mean, really? really?



As a hot comparison the Carthaginian UW gives them:
-4 gpt
+2 trade-routes
+3 production
+1 gold from incoming trade-routes

 

[Atlas627]

Seems fine but I still think Council of Ten should get +2 base yields to help Venice out and be unlocked way earlier than that ( maybe Writing, but it could be put in some 2nd row Ancient) with the free building choice being automatically unlocked upon reaching Medieval era or Guilds to allow Venice time to think about which building would fit them more (and to make it more fitting time period wise).

Give Arsenal a tiny buff to 15% production though or it'll be too weak.

I think Glassworks should give Venice a free Glass under the city though, I don't think any civ spawns directly on a resource anyway.

The Great Council (different from the Council of Ten btw) could be unlocked at Writing and have base +2 yields. All the other bonuses would be useless for a long time though, so that's a good reason to give +2 yields.

I agree with making the Arsenal +15% production.

G said we can't spawn the Glass at all, there's no art. Also I like to purposely move my settler to get the best Venice spot possible, so idk about never settling on a resource

Also we said if we give the glass like the Great Admiral does, then there's no monopoly bonus.

Oh sure, the buildings can spawn whenever. Just need to choose a tech for the Great Council. Heck, we could even toss the 'free MoV on Sailing' and have the MoV spawn when you build the Great Council instead. Put the Great Council at Trade, and then put everything else in the Renaissance.

G

I like this idea. Great Council at Trade or Writing with some base yields and then unlock the other things later. Most of the yields on the Great Council aren't even helpful in early game (+15% GP is useful, but counterespionage is useless and you rarely get golden ages until mid-game anyway)

Cool idea with the MoV but I still feel the free buildings should unlock at Medieval or Guilds at latest, not Renaissance (otherwise the Great Galeass unlock will be a bit outdated)

I'm down with Guilds.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

You really won't drop it? I don't think there is a nice way to explain this, but whatever, I'll just go for it.




I'll break it down for you.


Military:

+10% Production
+15% GPP
Immune to spy actions
+10% all yields during GA
+Engineer
+6 defense
+unique promotion
+an additional UU

A flat 10% increase to production is as much as you get from a copper-monopoly, even if it is just locally, that's the most powerful monopoly-effect in the game.
15% GPP is three fifths of a national monument
On top of that you're immune to enemy spy-action which is an buffed up version of the Mandir effect.
You're getting two thirds of the Mandate of heaven founder belief
A pimped up version of the great lighthouse
An extra UU, out of nowhere
a specialist and +6 city-defense
This would be crazy if it straight up replaced another good national wonder, but it doesn't, it just adds more.


Culture

+15% GPP
+10% all yields during GA
Immune to spy actions
+2 Tourism from great tile improvements
+Artist
+2 Art/artifact slots

This isn't anywhere near as crazy as the one above, actually bordering on being completely terrible, and can in no way actually compete with either of the others, no matter what you're going for.


Diplomatic
+15% GPP
+10% all yields during GA
Immune to spy actions
Trade routes to CS provide +1 influence per turn
Doubled luxuries
+Merchant
+1vote for every 2 CS ally


15% GPP is still three fifths of a national monument
You're still immune to enemy spy-action which is an buffed up version of the Mandir effect.
Still getting two thirds of the Mandate of heaven founder belief
Extra influence from trade-routes isn't that bad, until you realize how it stacks with Merchant Confederacy and pretty much ensures you're going to have as many city-state allies as you have trade-routes, and Venice have a lot of trade-routes.
Doubled luxuries is a really powerful effect, it could probably fit in on a Unique wonder, but that would be the main selling point of the wonder and would probably only be accompanied by some flat yields.
An extra merchant slot is fine
You're topping the whole thing off by giving Venice the German UA, I mean, really? really?

That's good reasoning to a point, but I disagree - the second is actually strong if the buildings are unlocked early, but if it's renaissance then it's weak. Needs a tiny bit of yield love I suppose?

Comparisons work to a point but then if we go that way, Colosseum grants you the Culture of Tradition 4th Pol Monument, +2Prod per city policy of Liberty and free GG/GA every living fighting second (granted nobody really cares since what will you use more than 2 for, spawn some citadels when you could've just settled cities?).

I still prefer my version of Buildings though but those are cool too and pretty much the same in the long run, some yield changes perhaps and they'd be even better.

 

[Atlas627]

You really won't drop it? I don't think there is a nice way to explain this, but whatever, I'll just go for it.




I'll break it down for you.

Thank you very much.

Military:

+10% Production
+15% GPP
Immune to spy actions
+10% all yields during GA
+Engineer
+6 defense
+unique promotion
+an additional UU

A flat 10% increase to production is as much as you get from a copper-monopoly, even if it is just locally, that's the most powerful monopoly-effect in the game.
15% GPP is three fifths of a national monument
On top of that you're immune to enemy spy-action which is an buffed up version of the Mandir effect.
You're getting two thirds of the Mandate of heaven founder belief
A pimped up version of the great lighthouse
An extra UU, out of nowhere
a specialist and +6 city-defense
This would be crazy if it straight up replaced another good national wonder, but it doesn't, it just adds more.

Aside from the Great Lighthouse analysis, which I still think is better because of +1 sight at sea, I agree with everything you've said.

Culture

+15% GPP
+10% all yields during GA
Immune to spy actions
+2 Tourism from great tile improvements
+Artist
+2 Art/artifact slots

This isn't anywhere near as crazy as the one above, actually bordering on being completely terrible, and can in no way actually compete with either of the others, no matter what you're going for.

Yes I agree this one is weak. What would you like to see to make it stronger?

Diplomatic
+15% GPP
+10% all yields during GA
Immune to spy actions
Trade routes to CS provide +1 influence per turn
Doubled luxuries
+Merchant
+1vote for every 2 CS ally


15% GPP is still three fifths of a national monument
You're still immune to enemy spy-action which is an buffed up version of the Mandir effect.
Still getting two thirds of the Mandate of heaven founder belief
Extra influence from trade-routes isn't that bad, until you realize how it stacks with Merchant Confederacy and pretty much ensures you're going to have as many city-state allies as you have trade-routes, and Venice have a lot of trade-routes.
Doubled luxuries is a really powerful effect, it could probably fit in on a Unique wonder, but that would be the main selling point of the wonder and would probably only be accompanied by some flat yields.
An extra merchant slot is fine
You're topping the whole thing off by giving Venice the German UA, I mean, really? really?

It won't stack with Merchant Confederacy, and Gazebo already turned down the idea anyway. Also Venice eats City States, so I completely disagree that it means you'll have as many CS as Trade Routes. Also, Venice rarely has enough Paper to get CS allies, though without CS Diplo they get a ton.

Doubled luxuries is a really useful effect if it nets you a monopoly (which it sometimes will, sometimes won't), and really useless if it doesn't. Keep in mind you get this in one city only.

Again, Venice eats CS. If you choose to ally the City States instead of buy them, you need a boost to it.

As a hot comparison the Carthaginian UW gives them:
-4 gpt
+2 trade-routes
+3 production
+1 gold from incoming trade-routes

As a hot comparison to literally any other civ in the game, the Venetian UA gives them

+Double Trade Routes
-Puppets only
-Cant settle their own cities
+-Can buy CS, but at the cost of a whole Great Merchant and they can't even connect or control those cities or choose where they're founded

Every other civ can found cities and control them. That alone is MASSIVE. Their UU is just there to make their UA not completely terrible. Essentially they have no UU or UA. Having a strong multi-faceted UB is not unreasonable at all.

This UB needs to be roughly equivalent to the entire set of uniques other civs have, JUST to make up for not actually having a UA or UU. That doesn't even take into account that Venice cannot participate in most of the base game mechanics because they can't. found. cities. The UB needs to actually be even stronger to make up for the fact that they can't make use of anything that scales with empire size decently.

 

[Funak]

As a hot comparison to literally any other civ in the game, the Venetian UA gives them

+Double Trade Routes
-Puppets only
-Cant settle their own cities
+-Can buy CS, but at the cost of a whole Great Merchant and they can't even connect or control those cities or choose where they're founded

Every other civ can found cities and control them. That alone is MASSIVE. Their UU is just there to make their UA not completely terrible. Essentially they have no UU or UA. Having a strong multi-faceted UB is not unreasonable at all.

This UB needs to be roughly equivalent to the entire set of uniques other civs have, JUST to make up for not actually having a UA or UU. That doesn't even take into account that Venice cannot participate in most of the base game mechanics because they can't. found. cities. The UB needs to actually be even stronger to make up for the fact that they can't make use of anything that scales with empire size decently.

I'll be the first one to say I really don't like how Venice works at all, and I would rather have them designed around not eating city-states.
That being said, Double trade-routes is so amazingly overpowered it pretty much blows all the negatives away. Trade-routes in CPP are even more powerful than trade-routes in BNW, and even back in BNW the doubled trade-routes were considered super-amazing.

You also forgot the part where they can buy units and invest in buildings in their puppets, that's part of their UA.