Venice

[Funak]

Well if we had to choose exactly 3, one diplomatic, one military, and one economic, it would probably have to be

Murano Glassworks
St. Mark's Basilica
Venetian Arsenal

Could you not use the Basilica? It's more of a religious thing, and events and decisions is already using it.

Doge's Palace - NW available at Civil Service (this makes some thematic sense and is about the time when you'd run out of other Venetian things to do like buying city states or being ahead in early game), not sure how much pop to require with the new scaling. Merchant specialist slot, +2 of all base yields, +15% GP, and Advanced Spy actions can't be taken in this city. Choose an additional bonus from the following 3 buildings:

Murano Glassworks - Artist specialist slot, Doubles all luxuries near the city, Trade Routes to and from this city provide +1 gold and +1 science to both parties, GP improvements worked by this city provide +2 food and +2 tourism

Venetian Arsenal - Engineer specialist slot, +15% production in the city, +40% production when building Naval Units, Naval units receive +15xp, +10 defense in city

St. Mark's Basilica - Civil Servant specialist slot (scientist if you don't have CS Diplo mod), +1 vote for every CS with your majority religion, religion spreads from this city at double speed, 2 Art/Artifact slots, +5 faith

Is it just me or do all three of these buildings sound completely insane?

 

[Atlas627]

One question, to begin :
Would it be possible to have the CS Diplo building provide Papers ?
(asking because Papers come from an "aside" from the mod, but is really the "bad" side of Venice, because of having limited number of chanceries because of their usually low number of cities)

I suggested having a Civil Servant slot on one of the buildings which is replaced with a Scientist if you aren't using CS Diplo. We could make the Doge's Palace provide the paper (2 paper good?) and that way it can just go away if you don't have the mod and it doesn't change the balance of the 3 buildings.

 

[Atlas627]

Could you not use the Basilica? It's more of a religious thing, and events and decisions is already using it.


Is it just me or do all three of these buildings sound completely insane?

Religion and diplomacy are pretty intertwined for most of history, but I'll try to think of something else.

Well they are mutually exclusive and are a National Wonder UB that comes in the mid-late game. Keep in mind that Venice's UA is already balanced against itself and with the UU in mind, so they are pretty weak.

And is it just me or did you not have to be a total jerk about a suggestion?

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Could you not use the Basilica? It's more of a religious thing, and events and decisions is already using it.


Is it just me or do all three of these buildings sound completely insane?

Yeah Venice is doing pretty fine right now (but is dependent on the map), it would just make it nuts while not helping Venice with any of its problems.

My idea:

Venetian Arsenal: Unlocks the Great Galeass UU. +3 Production +4 Defense, +15% Naval unit production, Engineer Specialist.

Venetian Glassworks: Glass Luxury Resource appears around Venice. +2 Gold for each owned Luxury Resource, +15% Great Merchant Rate, Merchant Specialist

Venetian Constantinople-Backstabworks (diplomatic building): CS Mission Influence rewards are increased by 15% and influence decay gets slower for every finished mission by 10% (up to 50%), +1 of each yield in Capital for every currently allied, MoV'd/conquered CS and liberation. Diplomat specialist.

 

[Funak]

And is it just me or did you not have to be a total jerk about a suggestion?

Come on man, you suggested a vote for every CS sharing your religion, if that isn't insane I don't know what. Lighten up

Yeah Venice is doing pretty fine right now (but is dependent on the map), it would just make it nuts while not helping Venice with any of its problems.

My idea:

Venetian Arsenal: Unlocks the Great Galeass UU. +3 Production +4 Defense, +15% Naval unit production, Engineer Specialist.

Venetian Glassworks: Glass Luxury Resource appears around Venice. +2 Gold for each owned Luxury Resource, +15% Great Merchant Rate, Merchant Specialist

Venetian Constantinople-Backstabworks (diplomatic building): CS Mission Influence rewards are increased by 15% and influence decay gets slower for every finished mission by 10% (up to 50%), +1 of each yield in Capital for every currently allied, MoV'd/conquered CS and liberation. Diplomat specialist.

This looks a whole lot more reasonable. I don't think the scaling lowered influence decay is possible however, but I know nothing of programming so, yeah

 

[Atlas627]

Yeah Venice is doing pretty fine right now (but is dependent on the map), it would just make it nuts while not helping Venice with any of its problems.

My idea:

Venetian Arsenal: Unlocks the Great Galeass UU. +3 Production +4 Defense, +15% Naval unit production, Engineer Specialist.

Venetian Glassworks: Glass Luxury Resource appears around Venice. +2 Gold for each owned Luxury Resource, +15% Great Merchant Rate, Merchant Specialist

Venetian Constantinople-Backstabworks (diplomatic building): CS Mission Influence rewards are increased by 15% and influence decay gets slower for every finished mission by 10% (up to 50%), +1 of each yield in Capital for every currently allied, MoV'd/conquered CS and liberation. Diplomat specialist.

1) Being dependent upon the map means that bonuses limited to only 1 city help a lot more when they get a weak roll and a lot less when they get a strong one.

2) Some of the ideas are specifically to help with Venice's problems. For example, they never get monopolies, so doubling the luxuries in the capital will give them an opportunity to sometimes. They have trouble spreading/benefiting from their own religion, so double spread and extra bonuses from that may make it worthwhile. They can only control production in one city, so having that city get more production is crucial to their survival. They only have so much space to put improvements and can only make so many GP when controlling only one city, so buffing their GP improvements helps balance out the insta-spend vs improvement balance that they have a problem with. Their UA is entirely dependent upon trade routes, which we have already mentioned are weak due to the ease of removing them through war. Providing a stronger boost while they are active helps them out. Venice has trouble generating faith when they have so few cities of the right terrain type, and they also have problems with Art slots and using the CS Diplomacy system because of their lack of Chanceries.

I have suggested something helpful for each of these issues. The numbers may be high, but I think the ideas are very good.

3) The UU will lose its effectiveness quickly. I don't think I would ever choose that building just because it has a bonus that goes obsolete at some point.

4) I would not pick the second building because having a glass luxury spawn on a GP improvement would irritate me to no end. Alternatively I would avoid building GP improvements until after, and that feels gross too.

5) I'd probably always pick this one, but keep in mind that some people don't play with CS Diplo. The Civil Servant slot would need to be replaced with something else in that case.

 

[Atlas627]

Come on man, you suggested a vote for every CS sharing your religion, if that isn't insane I don't know what. Lighten up

Have you ever played Venice? First off, they actively REMOVE CS from the map. Second, their religion almost never goes anywhere. Third, if somebody else spreads their religion to Venice instead, the double religion spread is useless and the +5 faith is much worse (not building missionaries with it), so the increased value of votes makes the building stay worthwhile.

Come on man, you can at least try to explain your reasoning rather than just calling someone else's ideas insane.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

1) Being dependent upon the map means that bonuses limited to only 1 city help a lot more when they get a weak roll and a lot less when they get a strong one.

2) Some of the ideas are specifically to help with Venice's problems. For example, they never get monopolies, so doubling the luxuries in the capital will give them an opportunity to sometimes. They have trouble spreading/benefiting from their own religion, so double spread and extra bonuses from that may make it worthwhile. They can only control production in one city, so having that city get more production is crucial to their survival. They only have so much space to put improvements and can only make so many GP when controlling only one city, so buffing their GP improvements helps balance out the insta-spend vs improvement balance that they have a problem with. Their UA is entirely dependent upon trade routes, which we have already mentioned are weak due to the ease of removing them through war. Providing a stronger boost while they are active helps them out. Venice has trouble generating faith when they have so few cities of the right terrain type, and they also have problems with Art slots and using the CS Diplomacy system because of their lack of Chanceries.

I have suggested something helpful for each of these issues. The numbers may be high, but I think the ideas are very good.

3) The UU will lose its effectiveness quickly. I don't think I would ever choose that building just because it has a bonus that goes obsolete at some point.

4) I would not pick the second building because having a glass luxury spawn on a GP improvement would irritate me to no end. Alternatively I would avoid building GP improvements until after, and that feels gross too.

5) I'd probably always pick this one, but keep in mind that some people don't play with CS Diplo. The Civil Servant slot would need to be replaced with something else in that case.

The problem is your "helping" of Venice was in the case of some buildings the size of entire UAs, your Arsenal made the city almost impossible to conquer but nobody would build it anyway considering your Glassworks was better than 2 UAs put together, same with Basilica. Venice only needs a small, reasonable push in the right direction, not a huge blast of buffs.

The Great Galeass UU is a trademark that many people (me included) miss and so it should be added to the Arsenal, with maybe the bonus being slightly improved on the building if it's too weak, maybe +4 Production instead of 3 and free Raider promotion on every ship.
Glass spawning on GP improvement is not a problem since GP improvements now connect Luxuries. Again, two Glass could spawn if one is not enough, perhaps buffing it to 2g1c.
Civil Servant could be replaced with Artist/Scientist.

 

[Atlas627]

The problem is your "helping" of Venice was in the case of some buildings the size of entire UAs, your Arsenal made the city almost impossible to conquer but nobody would build it anyway considering your Glassworks was better than 2 UAs put together, same with Basilica. Venice only needs a small, reasonable push in the right direction, not a huge blast of buffs.

The Great Galeass UU is a trademark that many people (me included) miss and so it should be added to the Arsenal, with maybe the bonus being slightly improved on the building if it's too weak, maybe +4 Production instead of 3 and free Raider promotion on every ship.
Glass spawning on GP improvement is not a problem since GP improvements now connect Luxuries. Again, two Glass could spawn if one is not enough, perhaps buffing it to 2g1c.
Civil Servant could be replaced with Artist/Scientist.

Assuming that all UAs apply only to the capital and never to any other cities, maybe. Also UBs are generally more powerful than UAs, because you have to tech and build them. This is a National Wonder I suggested we put at Civil Service, remember.

The Great Galeass would go obsolete. It doesn't even matter if you balance it with that in mind, it FEELS bad.

Since when do GP improvements connect luxuries? If they do, then I have no problem with your Glassworks idea.


I'll repeat myself: Venice's UA is already balanced against itself. They get double trade routes at the cost of having to puppet all cities and not being able to found cities. Its also already balanced against the UU, since they can now expend Great Merchants to do nothing but buy a city they couldn't place or control themselves. In terms of power, they arguably have no UA or UU. A strong UB is not unreasonable. In fact, the current Doge's Palace is ~80% of all their power due to the amount of snowball it helps create. Keep in mind we are removing that and I am suggesting that we do not replace any part of that power until Civil Service!

Personally, I find all of the UBs you suggested weak to the point of being a waste of time. What do you have in mind for the Doge's Palace and when it unlocks? That might be where our discrepancy lies.

Edit: Also, what? +10 defense is impossible to conquer? The current Doge's Palace provides +6 in the Ancient Era, I'm suggesting +10 going into Renaissance. Doubled luxuries in one city is not that powerful because it may not even give you a monopoly, and all you have then is a few extra of the same luxury to trade. Double religion spread from only 1 city, in the civ that will not have their cities set up in a way that spreads easily (especially with the new spread mechanics), is not that powerful. +15% production in exactly one city, the ONLY city in which you can control what you build, is not overly powerful. The trade route effect provides marginal yields and can be acquired through many other means in-game. The massive production boost to naval units is not only highly situational but not even very good due to the inherent weaknesses of a large navy (can't swarm land where the cities are anyway). The GP improvement buff is also not super powerful because how many GP improvements are you fitting in that one city anyway? The only thing that's questionably powerful is the votes from shared religion, and coming up with a replacement isn't hard.

Now if you want to reduce the power on those buildings, then remove the GP improvement aspect, votes from CS, and +production on naval units. Does it look more reasonable now?

 

[tompliss]

Second, their religion almost never goes anywhere.

I know I don't play Deity, but man, when I play Venice (or any civ fwiw), I spread my religion to my non-religious neighbors, and they help me spread it further.

 

[Gazebo]

Assuming that all UAs apply only to the capital and never to any other cities, maybe. Also UBs are generally more powerful than UAs, because you have to tech and build them. This is a National Wonder I suggested we put at Civil Service, remember.

The Great Galeass would go obsolete. It doesn't even matter if you balance it with that in mind, it FEELS bad.

Since when do GP improvements connect luxuries? If they do, then I have no problem with your Glassworks idea.


I'll repeat myself: Venice's UA is already balanced against itself. They get double trade routes at the cost of having to puppet all cities and not being able to found cities. Its also already balanced against the UU, since they can now expend Great Merchants to do nothing but buy a city they couldn't place or control themselves. In terms of power, they arguably have no UA or UU. A strong UB is not unreasonable. In fact, the current Doge's Palace is ~80% of all their power due to the amount of snowball it helps create. Keep in mind we are removing that and I am suggesting that we do not replace any part of that power until Civil Service!

Personally, I find all of the UBs you suggested weak to the point of being a waste of time. What do you have in mind for the Doge's Palace and when it unlocks? That might be where our discrepancy lies.

Edit: Also, what? +10 defense is impossible to conquer? The current Doge's Palace provides +6 in the Ancient Era, I'm suggesting +10 going into Renaissance. Doubled luxuries in one city is not that powerful because it may not even give you a monopoly, and all you have then is a few extra of the same luxury to trade. Double religion spread from only 1 city, in the civ that will not have their cities set up in a way that spreads easily (especially with the new spread mechanics), is not that powerful. +15% production in exactly one city, the ONLY city in which you can control what you build, is not overly powerful. The trade route effect provides marginal yields and can be acquired through many other means in-game. The massive production boost to naval units is not only highly situational but not even very good due to the inherent weaknesses of a large navy (can't swarm land where the cities are anyway). The GP improvement buff is also not super powerful because how many GP improvements are you fitting in that one city anyway? The only thing that's questionably powerful is the votes from shared religion, and coming up with a replacement isn't hard.

Now if you want to reduce the power on those buildings, then remove the GP improvement aspect, votes from CS, and +production on naval units. Does it look more reasonable now?

Glass has no resource art, so it can't spawn. It can be given, though, just like aluminum for the recycling center.

G

 

[Atlas627]

I know I don't play Deity, but man, when I play Venice (or any civ fwiw), I spread my religion to my non-religious neighbors, and they help me spread it further.

I never have this happen because in previous versions most faith yields came from tile improvements, and Venice couldn't found a second or third city that would definitely use whichever pantheon you picked. Even though I could often found a religion, it was very difficult to spread with missionaries because faith production was low, and it didn't spread passively because my cities weren't set up in a way to do that.

Even if I did spread it somehow, I got so few bonuses from it...

Anyway, Funak wants to use something other than the Basilica, so I'll think on that.

 

[Gazebo]

Venice is a really strong contender for cultural victories (esp. since they get % culture for civs bigger than them). Might be worthwhile to leave the economic stuff to the UA/UU, and then have the UBs be military/diplo/culture instead.

G

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Assuming that all UAs apply only to the capital and never to any other cities, maybe. Also UBs are generally more powerful than UAs, because you have to tech and build them. This is a National Wonder I suggested we put at Civil Service, remember.

The Great Galeass would go obsolete. It doesn't even matter if you balance it with that in mind, it FEELS bad.

Since when do GP improvements connect luxuries? If they do, then I have no problem with your Glassworks idea.


I'll repeat myself: Venice's UA is already balanced against itself. They get double trade routes at the cost of having to puppet all cities and not being able to found cities. Its also already balanced against the UU, since they can now expend Great Merchants to do nothing but buy a city they couldn't place or control themselves. In terms of power, they arguably have no UA or UU. A strong UB is not unreasonable. In fact, the current Doge's Palace is ~80% of all their power due to the amount of snowball it helps create. Keep in mind we are removing that and I am suggesting that we do not replace any part of that power until Civil Service!

Personally, I find all of the UBs you suggested weak to the point of being a waste of time. What do you have in mind for the Doge's Palace and when it unlocks? That might be where our discrepancy lies.

They connect since last patch, I saw indicator on my GP recommending I settle him on Perfume, did it and to my surprise it connected.

Doge's Palace is a bad idea - you are a Doge and have a Palace in your starting city, it should be named differently.

The UNW "Random Venetian Landmark" that unlocks the choice of those three pathways should be unlocked at any second row Ancient or, if it's too strong or unfitting, first row Classical tech to add flexibility - you want to go Writing first? You unlock it. You want to go Maths? You unlock it. Lots of choice, flexible.

Its stats should be, let's say, +2 to all yields (Tourism excluded), cost about as much as Wall or a bit more and grants one of those three as a free building. That's how I envision it.

Great Galeass is love, Great Galeass is life. With City Raider on all ships it'd be good for naval aggression, and if GG got some cool promotion then Arsenal would be a very cool thing - it'd never obsolete for the Great Galeass' promotion (and city raider from the VArsenal) would live on in its upgraded descendants. Arsenal could get more bonuses if it's still weaker, like +2 Science.
If VArsenal is to exist, Great Galeass should join it.

Glassworks seems fine at two Glass found, +15% Merchant Rate, Merchant Spec, +2Gold or +1/2 Tourism per turn for each Luxury (and Strategic Resource?) worked anywhere in your empire. Could get base +2Culture on top of all that.

Same with Backstabworks/NameNotFound, could get a bonus that makes Great Diplomats slightly stronger if you've transgressed against the CS and they're still upset (to signify the Pope was mad at Venice for a week after Constantinople and actually called them all heretics, only to change his mind a month later and un-exclude them from the church) to make Venice encouraged to be evil and manipulative.

 

[Gazebo]

They connect since last patch, I saw indicator on my GP recommending I settle him on Perfume, did it and to my surprise it connected.

Doge's Palace is a bad idea - you are a Doge and have a Palace in your starting city, it should be named differently.

The UNW "Random Venetian Landmark" that unlocks the choice of those three pathways should be unlocked at any second row Ancient or, if it's too strong or unfitting, first row Classical tech to add flexibility - you want to go Writing first? You unlock it. You want to go Maths? You unlock it. Lots of choice, flexible.

Its stats should be, let's say, +2 to all yields (Tourism excluded), cost about as much as Wall or a bit more and grants one of those three as a free building. That's how I envision it.

Great Galeass is love, Great Galeass is life. With City Raider on all ships it'd be good for naval aggression, and if GG got some cool promotion then Arsenal would be a very cool thing - it'd never obsolete for the Great Galeass' promotion (and city raider from the VArsenal) would live on in its upgraded descendants. Arsenal could get more bonuses if it's still weaker, like +2 Science.
If VArsenal is to exist, Great Galeass should join it.

Glassworks seems fine at two Glass found, +15% Merchant Rate, Merchant Spec, +2Gold or +1/2 Tourism per turn for each Luxury (and Strategic Resource?) worked anywhere in your empire. Could get base +2Culture on top of all that.

Same with Backstabworks/NameNotFound, could get a bonus that makes Great Diplomats slightly stronger if you've transgressed against the CS and they're still upset (to signify the Pope was mad at Venice for a week after Constantinople and actually called them all heretics, only to change his mind a month later and un-exclude them from the church) to make Venice encouraged to be evil and manipulative.

Be careful about linking CBP UB to CSD, as that means we have to maintain two copies of the UB. I'm not thrilled by that idea.

G

 

[Funak]

Same with Backstabworks/NameNotFound, could get a bonus that makes Great Diplomats slightly stronger if you've transgressed against the CS and they're still upset (to signify the Pope was mad at Venice for a week after Constantinople and actually called them all heretics, only to change his mind a month later and un-exclude them from the church) to make Venice encouraged to be evil and manipulative.

Man, the fourth crusade was pretty nuts

 

[Atlas627]

Alright, since apparently giving Venice some actual bonuses that aren't already balanced against their maluses is too much power, here's a second set of ideas.

Doge's Palace - Civil Servant specialist slot (merchant if no CS Diplo), +2 paper, +15% GP in this city, Advanced Spy Actions can't be taken in this city. I removed the +2 of all base yields because its boring extra power.

Choose one of the following:

Murano Glassworks - Artist specialist slot, Doubles luxuries in the city, 2 Art/Artifact slot (+3 science if filled with own Art and Artifact 1 each, +1 science if just filled with own Art/Artifacts). Removed the GP improvement part, swapped the Art slot to the building with the artist, and swapped the trade route bonus to the new building.

Venetian Arsenal - Engineer specialist slot, +10% production in the city, +15xp for Naval units built here, +6 defense in the city. Removed the +production of naval units since there will be enough production anyway. Reduced +production% and defense to be less powerful, since numbers alone are enough to scare people off of ideas.

Venetian Ghetto - Merchant specialist slot, Trade Routes to and from this city provide +1 gold +1 science to both parties, Trade Routes to CS from this city provide +1 influence per turn. Scrapped all the religion stuff so Venice can just suck at religion. Trade Route bonuses moved here from Glassworks and has CS diplo effect for Trade to CS.

Does this seem reasonable?

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Be careful about linking CBP UB to CSD, as that means we have to maintain two copies of the UB. I'm not thrilled by that idea.

G

It is a pretty fitting idea (non-CSD it could just increase influence for Gold from upset CS) but I understand. It's not like it needs that feature, the building is pretty strong without it.

Man, the fourth crusade was pretty nuts

It was pretty ironic too considering the crusades were a direct result of Turkish attacks on Constantinople, looting of trade caravans and lots of enslavement and rapes against Byzantine (and other Europeans too) done by them, further encouraged by pretty much the same stuff performed by Saracens on Iberian peninsula.

This silly crusade has done exactly what the crusades were meant to prevent, weakened Bysantium permanently and were the reason it fell to the Turks later. All this chaos just because of one greedy blind Venetian Doge wanted a bit more gold in his coffer.

 

[Funak]

It was pretty ironic too considering the crusades were a direct result of Turkish attacks on Constantinople, looting of trade caravans and lots of enslavement and rapes against Byzantine (and other Europeans too) done by them, further encouraged by pretty much the same stuff performed by Saracens on Iberian peninsula.

This silly crusade has done exactly what the crusades were meant to prevent, weakened Bysantium permanently and were the reason it fell to the Turks later. All this chaos just because of one greedy blind Venetian Doge wanted a bit more gold in his coffer.

You can't blame a doggie for wanting more gold.

Yeah honestly the entire fourth crusade was just pure madness.

Does this seem reasonable?

I think I'm going not going to answer this to avoid provoking you further

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Alright, since apparently giving Venice some actual bonuses that aren't already balanced against their maluses is too much power, here's a second set of ideas.

Doge's Palace - Civil Servant specialist slot (merchant if no CS Diplo), +2 paper, +15% GP in this city, Advanced Spy Actions can't be taken in this city. I removed the +2 of all base yields because its boring extra power.

Choose one of the following:

Murano Glassworks - Artist specialist slot, Doubles luxuries in the city, 2 Art/Artifact slot (+3 science if filled with own Art and Artifact 1 each, +1 science if just filled with own Art/Artifacts). Removed the GP improvement part, swapped the Art slot to the building with the artist, and swapped the trade route bonus to the new building.

Venetian Arsenal - Engineer specialist slot, +10% production in the city, +15xp for Naval units built here, +6 defense in the city. Removed the +production of naval units since there will be enough production anyway. Reduced +production% and defense to be less powerful, since numbers alone are enough to scare people off of ideas.

Venetian Ghetto - Merchant specialist slot, Trade Routes to and from this city provide +1 gold +1 science to both parties, Trade Routes to CS from this city provide +1 influence per turn. Scrapped all the religion stuff so Venice can just suck at religion. Trade Route bonuses moved here from Glassworks and has CS diplo effect for Trade to CS.

Does this seem reasonable?

Give Arsenal the Great Galeass and it's more or less fine but those seem far weaker than mine? I can't see a single thing they're better at, except for -15% GP on doge palace (which can be easily added to my doge's placae or whatever it's gonna be called because I just forgot to mention it, as well as no advanced spy actions).