Venice

[Atlas627]

I'll be the first one to say I really don't like how Venice works at all, and I would rather have them designed around not eating city-states.
That being said, Double trade-routes is so amazingly overpowered it pretty much blows all the negatives away. Trade-routes in CPP are even more powerful than trade-routes in BNW, and even back in BNW the doubled trade-routes were considered super-amazing.

You also forgot the part where they can buy units and invest in buildings in their puppets, that's part of their UA.

Well we obviously disagree on our evaluation of the rest of Venice.

And being able to buy in the puppets is just another attempted mitigation of the negatives of their UA.

 

[Moi Magnus]

I'll be the first one to say I really don't like how Venice works at all, and I would rather have them designed around not eating city-states.
That being said, Double trade-routes is so amazingly overpowered it pretty much blows all the negatives away. Trade-routes in CPP are even more powerful than trade-routes in BNW, and even back in BNW the doubled trade-routes were considered super-amazing.

You also forgot the part where they can buy units and invest in buildings in their puppets, that's part of their UA.

That's right, it would be great if you could really play Venice with only one city.

In fact, when I play Venice, I usually lower the difficulty, and use every Great Merchant for the improvement, and don't conquier any city.
When I play Venice, what I would want is be able to win a One-City-Game even at hight difficulty level.
Replacing the merchant of venice is not the current subject, and I agree that the Doge Palace is not the most interesting building, but I agree with Funak that it would be cool if Venice could play without eating CS.

 

[Atlas627]

By the way, in BNW 4 city tradition was the optimal strategy by far. Venice didn't lose very much by not being able to go wide, but instead had double trade routes in an expansion designed around trade routes. CBP is a different beast, and not being able to found your own cities is a HUGE detriment.

That's right, it would be great if you could really play Venice with only one city.

In fact, when I play Venice, I usually lower the difficulty, and use every Great Merchant for the improvement, and don't conquier any city.
When I play Venice, what I would want is be able to win a One-City-Game even at hight difficulty level.
Replacing the merchant of venice is not the current subject, and I agree that the Doge Palace is not the most interesting building, but I agree with Funak that it would be cool if Venice could play without eating CS.

I think Funak means he wants them to found cities themselves and stop eating CS to expand.

 

[PurpleMentat]

Every other civ can found cities and control them. That alone is MASSIVE. Their UU is just there to make their UA not completely terrible. Essentially they have no UU or UA. Having a strong multi-faceted UB is not unreasonable at all.

This UB needs to be roughly equivalent to the entire set of uniques other civs have, JUST to make up for not actually having a UA or UU. That doesn't even take into account that Venice cannot participate in most of the base game mechanics because they can't. found. cities. The UB needs to actually be even stronger to make up for the fact that they can't make use of anything that scales with empire size decently.

From these two paragraphs I get the feeling you do not enjoy Venice. The UU and UA are not nothing. The UB does not need to match an entire civ's toolset. With the trade routes Venice has you build every building at double speed, never spend hammers on units or emissaries, and have the cash you need to make everyone other civ your friend. If you decide to puppet city-states, they bulls everything at double speed in whatever order you tell them too. Venetian puppets are barely puppets anymore, they are annexed cities where you can't assign citizens.

The UU does far more than make up for the UA. For one, the UA doesn't really need making up for. For two, it's trade mission also generates 200 influence. This is enough that a Great Diplomat can't steal your ally. It also gives more cash than a normal trade mission.

I really enjoy the way Venice plays. I'd love to see them able to go OCC on high difficulties, but they breeze through Emperor. The recent changes to National Wonders should help. In my opinion, if you really dislike Venice and believe the inability to found cities is a penalty that counteracts BOTH the UU and UA, this is probably not the thread for you.

 

[Funak]

I think Funak means he wants them to found cities themselves and stop eating CS to expand.

Honestly, either of those would be fine with me. I think buying city-states makes no sense and I don't like having Venice in the game, passively reducing the number of city-states over time.
Either letting them settle puppets or letting them just rely on conquest would imho be a better solution (assuming it gets balanced accordingly)

From these two paragraphs I get the feeling you do not enjoy Venice. The UU and UA are not nothing. The UB does not need to match an entire civ's toolset. With the trade routes Venice has you build every building at double speed, never spend hammers on units or emissaries, and have the cash you need to make everyone other civ your friend. If you decide to puppet city-states, they bulls everything at double speed in whatever order you tell them too. Venetian puppets are barely puppets anymore, they are annexed cities where you can't assign citizens.

The UU does far more than make up for the UA. For one, the UA doesn't really need making up for. For two, it's trade mission also generates 200 influence. This is enough that a Great Diplomat can't steal your ally. It also gives more cash than a normal trade mission.

Pretty much this, yes.

 

[Atlas627]

From these two paragraphs I get the feeling you do not enjoy Venice. The UU and UA are not nothing. The UB does not need to match an entire civ's toolset. With the trade routes Venice has you build every building at double speed, never spend hammers on units or emissaries, and have the cash you need to make everyone other civ your friend. If you decide to puppet city-states, they bulls everything at double speed in whatever order you tell them too. Venetian puppets are barely puppets anymore, they are annexed cities where you can't assign citizens.

The UU does far more than make up for the UA. For one, the UA doesn't really need making up for. For two, it's trade mission also generates 200 influence. This is enough that a Great Diplomat can't steal your ally. It also gives more cash than a normal trade mission.

I really enjoy the way Venice plays. I'd love to see them able to go OCC on high difficulties, but they breeze through Emperor. The recent changes to National Wonders should help. In my opinion, if you really dislike Venice and believe the inability to found cities is a penalty that counteracts BOTH the UU and UA, this is probably not the thread for you.

Venice is my second favorite civ behind the Netherlands.

I love the way they play, but I think it is weak.

The recent changes to National Wonders should help a lot, I agree. But I haven't had a chance to try it.

The loss of the significantly snowballing Doge's Palace is a big deal.

Funak expressed actual disinterest in the civ, and you're telling me I don't like them and thus don't belong here? What?

 

[Funak]

Funak expressed actual disinterest in the civ, and you're telling me I don't like them and thus don't belong here? What?

I'm way too important to throw out .

You're correct about me not really liking the current Venice implementation, I do however not dislike what I perceive as the core of what it means to be Venice.

To break it down.
I dislike the MoV and its ability to buy city-states.
I like the idea of a puppet empire, with a powerful capital.
I like the idea of an OCCish civ

I do not believe that the core of Venice would change if they were allowed to settle puppets, that being said since there were no interest in that suggestion the last time I brought it up I'm not planning on suggesting it again for a while.



Also I'm absolutely way too good at what I do to not be included in every discussion, ever.

 

[JungleBucks]

I'm way too important to throw out .

You're correct about me not really liking the current Venice implementation, I do however not dislike what I perceive as the core of what it means to be Venice.

To break it down.
I dislike the MoV and its ability to buy city-states.
I like the idea of a puppet empire, with a powerful capital.
I like the idea of an OCCish civ

I do not believe that the core of Venice would change if they were allowed to settle puppets, that being said since there were no interest in that suggestion the last time I brought it up I'm not planning on suggesting it again for a while.



Also I'm absolutely way too good at what I do to not be included in every discussion, ever.

I certainly don't think Venice getting Puppet Settlers would be a bad idea, but I see the controversy in such a suggestion. At the very least a couple of extra (Italian) City-States should spawn near Venice when he's introduced in a game, but I don't know if that could properly be implemented.

Aw well, I'll deal with the cards I'm dealt...I guess.

 

[Atlas627]

Double trade routes don't do all that stuff, trade routes do. I get all of those bonuses when playing as the Netherlands and then some. Like having a cohesive empire. And taking good city spots. And getting to use my Great Merchants on things other than getting suboptimal far-flung cities. And having City State allies because I don't need to eat them to expand.

I'm way too important to throw out .

You're correct about me not really liking the current Venice implementation, I do however not dislike what I perceive as the core of what it means to be Venice.

To break it down.
I dislike the MoV and its ability to buy city-states.
I like the idea of a puppet empire, with a powerful capital.
I like the idea of an OCCish civ

I do not believe that the core of Venice would change if they were allowed to settle puppets, that being said since there were no interest in that suggestion the last time I brought it up I'm not planning on suggesting it again for a while.

Also I'm absolutely way too good at what I do to not be included in every discussion, ever.

I like all 3 parts, but you forgot to mention the 4th: doesn't found their own cities. I like that part too.

Unfortunately, they need SOME way of expanding to have both an OCCish civ and a puppet empire with a powerful capital. Having it be conquest only is not very unique and doesn't really lead to OCCish styles.

I'm also not sure what you dislike so much about the eating of CS. Shouldn't civs be able to conquer CS? Is this any different?


If you really want to edit Venice without removing everything but still getting rid of the eating CS, you could make them unable to build settlers but get one every era or something. They'll expand very slowly and have to take leftover far-flung spots still, but they won't be City States.

 

[Funak]

I'm also not sure what you dislike so much about the eating of CS. Shouldn't civs be able to conquer CS? Is this any different?

First of all I'm under no illusion this would actually happen.

Yes there is a huge difference between conquering CS and MoVing them, first of all there is huge diplomatic backlash for capturing city-states. Second, capturing city-states is actually not that easy at all, they usually keep up in units pretty well and their city combat-strength gets massive.

Third and probably most important, you can actively stop conquest by donating units or even going to war with the aggressor. To stop a MoV, you have to know where it is going, and somehow get there ahead of it.

If you really want to edit Venice without removing everything but still getting rid of the eating CS, you could make them unable to build settlers but get one every era or something. They'll expand very slowly and have to take leftover far-flung spots still, but they won't be City States.

Maybe.

 

[Atlas627]

First of all I'm under no illusion this would actually happen.

Yes there is a huge difference between conquering CS and MoVing them, first of all there is huge diplomatic backlash for capturing city-states. Second, capturing city-states is actually not that easy at all, they usually keep up in units pretty well and their city combat-strength gets massive.

Third and probably most important, you can actively stop conquest by donating units or even going to war with the aggressor. To stop a MoV, you have to know where it is going, and somehow get there ahead of it.

Fair, though I

1) think there should not be such a diplomatic backlash for capturing CS,
2) think their city defense is a little too high right now, and
3) you can still actively stop conquest by attacking Venice.

Also my preferred method for dealing with conquered CS is to liberate them, and you can still do that against Venice.

 

[PurpleMentat]

Try not to take things so personally GamerKG. I said, "If you really dislike Venice and believe the inability to found cities is..." And statements are only true if both potions are true. You like Venice, you belong here. I disagree about the disadvantages involved. And Funak and I had our yelling match earlier in this thread. He doesn't like Venice, but he doesn't think the lack of settling counteracts both the UU and UA, so he belongs here too.

I've said from the beginning that whatever replaces the Palace needs to cover the early yields. Not getting access to the UB until Rennaissance doesn't manage this. There's a couple ways to cover and still unlock the :

1) Have the first building that enables the others open at Wheel or Trade. Put yields on the building.

2) Give the MoV a special Town to go with his other special powers, or in place of buying a City-State. Give another free one at Trade.

3) Keep the Palace replacement, nerf the yields, remove the Defense, give it a Merchant, open the other buildings at Guilds with it as a prerequisite.

 

[Funak]

Try not to take things so personally GamerKG. I said, "If you really dislike Venice and believe the inability to found cities is..." And statements are only true if both potions are true. You like Venice, you belong here. I disagree about the disadvantages involved. And Funak and I had our yelling match earlier in this thread. He doesn't like Venice, but he doesn't think the lack of settling counteracts both the UU and UA, so he belongs here too.

You remembered!


Honestly I'm on the verge of hiring someone to mod a special version of my idea for Venice just so you guys can test it and realize how superior it is. The only thing stopping me is the fact that I really don't care enough

2) Give the MoV a special Town to go with his other special powers, or in place of buying a City-State.

Honestly think this should be done no matter what happens to Venice, the MoV having one standard GM ability makes no sense to me.

 

[Atlas627]

Try not to take things so personally GamerKG. I said, "If you really dislike Venice and believe the inability to found cities is..." And statements are only true if both potions are true.

Correct, though you also said "I get the feeling you do not enjoy Venice" which indicates you believe both are true and thus you are saying that I do not belong here. Now that you no longer believe that I do not enjoy Venice, you think I belong here. That's fine, but that doesn't change that your initial statement was

If you don't like Venice and think they are bad you don't belong
+ You don't like Venice and you think they are bad
then you don't belong.

Perhaps I take it personally, but that doesn't mean it wasn't more insulting than necessary.

I've said from the beginning that whatever replaces the Palace needs to cover the early yields. Not getting access to the UB until Rennaissance doesn't manage this. There's a couple ways to cover and still unlock the :

1) Have the first building that enables the others open at Wheel or Trade. Put yields on the building.

2) Give the MoV a special Town to go with his other special powers, or in place of buying a City-State. Give another free one at Trade.

3) Keep the Palace replacement, nerf the yields, remove the Defense, give it a Merchant, open the other buildings at Guilds with it as a prerequisite.

I don't think Venice NEEDS early yields. Other civs that can expand get better yields later in the game. So our option is to make Venice even more unique than they already were and frontload their power or to make them have a similar curve but in a different way. I think either is fine, and as I said before most of their unique attributes stop mattering around Renaissance. In my opinion, that is the time to give them access to new uniques, especially because late entry means greater power potential.

I think what we were nearing was a compromise with having the Great Council (the UB) unlock at Writing and then have the player choose 1 of 3 upgrades at Guilds.

And I totally agree with making the Town unique if at all possible. It just completely sucks to never want to build Towns because you NEED to use GM for one of their special abilities or lose out on part of Venice.

 

[Enginseer]

To be honest I think Venice is more of a warmonger. I did this in a Quick game with Venice.

1. Head for Authority Starter since Raging Barbarian is enabled.
2. Start going aggressive, need barbarians to fuel my need for culture.
3. Tech toward Trade and get a market up immediately training a specialist, so I can get a MoV up in 20 turns or so. I immediately switch toward Sailing for another MoV.
4. Since I am constantly getting barbarian kills, I can go straight for Imperium to get another MoV.
5. By turn 60, I have 4 cities and 3 city-state armies at my disposal for early conquering.

Alternatively, I could have went for a MoV to go for the ally thing to get some gold so my infrastructure doesn't collapse. But I like conquering.

 

[Atlas627]

To be honest I think Venice is more of a warmonger. I did this in a Quick game with Venice.

1. Head for Authority Starter since Raging Barbarian is enabled.
2. Start going aggressive, need barbarians to fuel my need for culture.
3. Tech toward Trade and get a market up immediately training a specialist, so I can get a MoV up in 20 turns or so. I immediately switch toward Sailing for another MoV.
4. Since I am constantly getting barbarian kills, I can go straight for Imperium to get another MoV.
5. By turn 60, I have 4 cities and 3 city-state armies at my disposal for early conquering.

They are certainly quite capable of it already, but that is due to the high base yields of the Doge's Palace. They also get help with it because they get CS armies when buying CS and can even buy units in their puppet empire that they conquer. Its also the best way for them to get over not founding cities.

This is something I think should stay for variety, but it might be too easy right now. I've quit several Venice games because I decided to do aggressive conquering and it was way too easy.

This is another reason why the military UB is for naval bonuses, because they can't buy/snowball their way to a naval force as easily as a land force, so it becomes hard to win by Domination. The other UBs are all for more peaceful intents to help buff that playstyle, because I honestly agree that conquering with Venice is the best strategy right now (and kinda sad because its no different from any other civ aside from buying CS to start it)

 

[merill]

My turn to propose insane buildings!
I'm not sure if the effects are possible, some are inspired by arabian ua.

• (Military, conquer Puppets) Venetian Arsenal - Engineer specialist slot, naval units built here receive the "Venetian Craftsmanship" ability, which is +1 movement, +10% combat strength. -50% military units upkeep cost.

why: Venice need a big army to guard his cities -> reduce upkeep -> more gold to buy unit

• (Diplomacy, OCC) Murano Glassworks - Merchant Slot, WLTKD give you +20% science in the city, Towns +2F+4C in this city. when a trade route from this city (and to an allied cs, if possible) end the capital gain +10% over a random GP.

why: To enhance OCC flavor. (Using the great merchant to have more WLTKD, allied CS and more towns instead of more puppets).
note: Is it possible to add a policy effect to a building? (Allied cs can give you GP instead of the trade-route thing)

• (Culture) Ducat Mint - Artist specialist slot, 2 Art/Artifact slots (with +5 science if filled with art from other civs). Each time you spend gold the capital gain +10% over a musician, artist or writer.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

There have been a lot of proposals and discussion. I hope Gazebo shows us what he has come up with soon.

 

[Gazebo]

I'm waiting for you all to come to a consensus. Not my task, this one.

G

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I'm waiting for you all to come to a consensus. Not my task, this one.

G

Concensus? Lol. How about a plurality?