Venice

[Eagle Pursuit]

May I recommend that instead of allowing Venice to build/buy Great Galleases, just award a fixed number of Great Galleases instead.

 

[Atlas627]

I ok'd them as being possible, but I didn't say they were balanced! Missed the doubling luxuries element, otherwise I would have pointed that out sooner.

G

Okeydokey! How about the investment bonus? That building is supposed to be the flexible one, so 1) thats appropriately flexible, 2) its appropriately themed, 3) the building gives global yields (votes and gold) so some centralized ones are good, and 4) it keeps the Glassworks the tall/tourism one.

 

[Taikavarpu]

We can't readily unlock the Great Galleass (I don't think) without a rework of the minorcivgift system. I'll take a look, but can't guarantee it. Also, a UB giving a UU feels too strong, IMO. Take that away and boost production by 5%. Solid.
G

I don't think getting Great Galleass would be strong. Unlike all current UU:s, it receives no extra promotions of any kind, and thus it's usefulness is almost completely limited to one era.

 

[Funak]

I don't think getting Great Galleass would be strong. Unlike all current UU:s, it receives no extra promotions of any kind, and thus it's usefulness is almost completely limited to one era.

Yeah, you're right. Too bad there is no way to adjust the combatstats and promotions of the Great Galleass .

On topic, getting an extra UU would still be crazy, bad stats or not.

 

[Gazebo]

Yeah, you're right. Too bad there is no way to adjust the combatstats and promotions of the Great Galleass .

On topic, getting an extra UU would still be crazy, bad stats or not.

I agree with Funak here. An extra UU is too much.

G

 

[Taikavarpu]

I agree with Funak here. An extra UU is too much.

G

As much as I want the Great Galleass, I guess there is no way to justify Venice getting an extra UU...

 

[Funak]

As much as I want the Great Galleass, I guess there is no way to justify Venice getting an extra UU...

Sure there is, if you tune down the trade-route bonus from the UA, and tune down the bonuses of the MoV, you can probably justify baking the MoV into the UA and bring back the Great Galleass as the Venice UU.

That's pretty much the only possibility I see however.

 

[IcyAngel]

It's limited by culture, technology and hammers, 3 things the Venetian Palace gives they bonuses in, not counting the fact that they don't have to bother building Settlers and for that reason have a lot of extra hammers around.

That's beside the point.

On a competitive difficulty level, or against human players, you cannot tech nearly fast enough to snag "every wonder". If you go for the Great Library you will not tech Pyramids, Mausoleum, Terracotta, Statue of Zeus, Hanging Gardens, Roman Forum, The Great Lighthouse, etc, in time before one of the other 7-11 players gets to it first and builds it, in most scenarios. You'll get the ToA, the Great Library and luck out with at most 1-2 other neglected wonders.

And by experience, I can do that with any civ given a decent production start. The AI doesn't appear to beeline very much.

I realize that not everyone plays on Deity or against humans, but *anything* works on lower difficulties, so I don't see a point in balancing around them (unless it costs nothing).

 

[PurpleMentat]

Sure there is, if you tune down the trade-route bonus from the UA, and tune down the bonuses of the MoV, you can probably justify baking the MoV into the UA and bring back the Great Galleass as the Venice UU.

That's pretty much the only possibility I see however.

That is a bleak and joyless proposition that fills me with sorrow.

I don't like it.

Relevency edit: the Military building should also increase Supply if possible. Supply was strictly limiting my ability to fight Arabia during Medieval in my last game. I had not bought any City-States, instead planning to conquer Arabia and use the economic boost of allying city-states to be ahead in tech. My Knights and Trebs took him down before he got Camel Archers online, but not by much, and it was Supply that stopped me from having enough army to crack the first city quickly.

 

[Atlas627]

I'm totally fine with no Great Galeass. I only included it because other people were asking for it.

Does the version I proposed, assuming we adjust numbers later, work for people?

 

[Funak]

That's beside the point.

On a competitive difficulty level, or against human players, you cannot tech nearly fast enough to snag "every wonder". If you go for the Great Library you will not tech Pyramids, Mausoleum, Terracotta, Statue of Zeus, Hanging Gardens, Roman Forum, The Great Lighthouse, etc, in time before one of the other 7-11 players gets to it first and builds it, in most scenarios. You'll get the ToA, the Great Library and luck out with at most 1-2 other neglected wonders.

And by experience, I can do that with any civ given a decent production start. The AI doesn't appear to beeline very much.

I realize that not everyone plays on Deity or against humans, but *anything* works on lower difficulties, so I don't see a point in balancing around them (unless it costs nothing).

For testing purposes I actually did a deity-run with Venice this morning, and while I did not managed to snag all the wonders (that's mostly an expression) I did get a lot more than half. I was 8 techs ahead of the second best civ by the time I reached renaissance era, because of how wonders and culture snowball technology.
That run could just have been a fluke, but I'm kinda willing to bet it wasn't.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I'm totally fine with no Great Galeass. I only included it because other people were asking for it.

Does the version I proposed, assuming we adjust numbers later, work for people?

I like it.

 

[PurpleMentat]

I feel like I've asked this before and the answer was 'no', but this is a new opportunity to bring it up. Is it possible to make one of these cause CS ally resources to count towards Venice monopolies? If I have asked and this was the answer, I apologize for my shoddy meat-based memory system.

 

[Gazebo]

I feel like I've asked this before and the answer was 'no', but this is a new opportunity to bring it up. Is it possible to make one of these cause CS ally resources to count towards Venice monopolies? If I have asked and this was the answer, I apologize for my shoddy meat-based memory system.

They can if they're spawn on the map like CS resources are (they're spawned under the city). I think I set up a monopoly for these at some point...

 

[PurpleMentat]

They can if they're spawn on the map like CS resources are (they're spawned under the city). I think I set up a monopoly for these at some point...

Glass, Jewelry, and Ceramics definitely have monopolies. I'd like an option for Venice to interact with the monopoly system outside of conquest, so this would be wonderful.

 

[Atlas627]

They can if they're spawn on the map like CS resources are (they're spawned under the city). I think I set up a monopoly for these at some point...

So they'll get the same monopoly every time? Does it work with Corporations?

If the answer to the second question is yes then I might be ok with the Glassworks giving Ceramics/Glass and moving the GP Improvement thing to the Ducat Mint while forgetting about the Doubled Luxuries. Otherwise I think having the investment thing on the Ducat Mint is better.

 

[Gazebo]

Glass, Jewelry, and Ceramics definitely have monopolies. I'd like an option for Venice to interact with the monopoly system outside of conquest, so this would be wonderful.

I believe those three are tied to corporations, yep.

If the answer to the second question is yes then I might be ok with the Glassworks giving Ceramics/Glass and moving the GP Improvement thing to the Ducat Mint while forgetting about the Doubled Luxuries. Otherwise I think having the investment thing on the Ducat Mint is better.

Resources via buildings (Candi excluded) don't give monopolies, as they're not added to the map. But otherwise CS luxuries do, yep.

G

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

So you can't get it to add a resource to the map ala Candi?

 

[PurpleMentat]

So they'll get the same monopoly every time? Does it work with Corporations?

If the answer to the second question is yes then I might be ok with the Glassworks giving Ceramics/Glass and moving the GP Improvement thing to the Ducat Mint while forgetting about the Doubled Luxuries. Otherwise I think having the investment thing on the Ducat Mint is better.

Glass is Hexxon Refineries, Porcelain is Firaxite Materials, Jewelry is Civilized Jewelers.

However, what I meant was for one of the Venice buildings to cause allied CS resources to count towards Venice monopolies. That is, if you have allied with 3 CS's with Copper, Venice would have 3 counts of Copper towards a Monopoly. Might push you over the edge, and probably would help for Strategics.

 

[Funak]

However, what I meant was for one of the Venice buildings to cause allied CS resources to count towards Venice monopolies. That is, if you have allied with 3 CS's with Copper, Venice would have 3 counts of Copper towards a Monopoly. Might push you over the edge, and probably would help for Strategics.

This just sounds excessive to me, why should Venice be better at having city-state allies than other civs? In fact didn't most trading-cities hate Venice' guts because all Venetians were donkeyholes?