Venice

[Gazebo]

I think that is the exact opposite of what needs to happen, and I'm not sure where you see a consensus at all.

The Rialto District is the flexible one. It gives gold if there's anyone you aren't at war with, lets you spend gold easier, get more MoVs, and have votes (which are inherently flexible).

The Murano Glassworks is better the fewer cities you have, because it boosts the capital significantly more than it boosts any other city (you'll want to place your GP Improvements here, leaving your other cities bare).

The Arsenale di Venezia is supposed to be for military and conquering. +15% production isnt really any better than the -10% gold cost and is also pretty negligible overall, especially since one of Venice's strengths is buying units in all the puppets, bypassing and reducing the effectiveness of the Arsenale. The naval upgrade itself is good but not interesting.

There's many ways to improve the Arsenale, but just buffing it is probably not going to work. And trying to make it more flexible is probably not the way to go.

Flexible appeal = good for war, but also has lasting value while not at war.

G

 

[Atlas627]

Flexible appeal = good for war, but also has lasting value while not at war.

G

That sounds like the Rialto District to me. Gold is good for war but also when not at war, and votes do the same.

Differentiating them is much better in my opinion.

 

[Takagi Hiro]

Uh, whoa. This might be a fairly big exploit / bug then, since Gazebo said that the hurricane uses the starvation code. Can you starve off a citizen while locking down everyone? If so, the climb from pop 1 to pop 2 is significantly shorter than any other climb. It could make certain kinds of city locations easy to cheese into very, very high populations.

Not sure, since I've never tried to be that gamey. However, I'll admit that I enjoy the hurricane event, as it just allows my city to grow faster. Anyway, I'm not sure if it's just me or a universal thing, so it should probably be tested before it's considered a bug. Also, losing population through other events behaves the same way.

 

[Atlas627]

I believe I saw this implemented somewhere in the CBP at some point, so I'll propose this idea:

Let the Arsenale cause Venetian trade routes to defend themselves.

If that isn't possible, perhaps we can put some sort of "buff all harbors" effect on the Arsenale?

 

[Funak]

I believe I saw this implemented somewhere in the CBP at some point, so I'll propose this idea:

Let the Arsenale cause Venetian trade routes to defend themselves.

If that isn't possible, perhaps we can put some sort of "buff all harbors" effect on the Arsenale?

I remember someone asking that before and the short answer was that you can't let trade-routes defend themselves or be immune to pillaging because it breaks the AI.

 

[Takagi Hiro]

I remember someone asking that before and the short answer was that you can't let trade-routes defend themselves or be immune to pillaging because it breaks the AI.

Aren't they already immune? I don't know how many times I've seen the AI's caravans cruise right on through a hoard of barbarians unphased.

 

[Orlanduke]

Aren't they already immune? I don't know how many times I've seen the AI's caravans cruise right on through a hoard of barbarians unphased.

Nope, that's the biggest argument against Trade Route civs. It all depends on if the ai actually is "smart" enough to pillage the trade route while they're on the tile. I believe they typically do, but there are some exceptions with priorities, like when the AI doesn't always pillage tiles when they're in your territory, and sometimes they literally destroy everything they can.

 

[Takagi Hiro]

Nope, that's the biggest argument against Trade Route civs. It all depends on if the ai actually is "smart" enough to pillage the trade route while they're on the tile. I believe they typically do, but there are some exceptions with priorities, like when the AI doesn't always pillage tiles when they're in your territory, and sometimes they literally destroy everything they can.

What I'm trying to say here is that AI caravans literally cruise right through swaths of barbarians without being plundered, yet if a player caravan even TOUCHES a barbarian, it's immediately sent to its doom.

I figured this was a choice to help the AI keep their economy going, but if I'm wrong, this may be a bug... or just something I'm experiencing, for some reason.

 

[Atlas627]

Alright, well I'll brainstorm some other ideas.

Basically, the Murano Glassworks rewards you for having a peaceful and huge capital. The Rialto District rewards you in flexible ways, but still puts most of the rewards in the capital.

I think the Arsenale can buff up the other cities a bit, which also encourages more conquering.

How about "internal trade routes originating here provide gold/culture/science". Does that overlap with the Ottos too much?

If it does, how about "all harbors provide +2hammers and +2gold"?

 

[pandasnail]

Agree with Gamer, adding something to other cities, thru the Harbor or another building, sounds like a fun way to promote the war building.

 

[Gazebo]

Alright, well I'll brainstorm some other ideas.

Basically, the Murano Glassworks rewards you for having a peaceful and huge capital. The Rialto District rewards you in flexible ways, but still puts most of the rewards in the capital.

I think the Arsenale can buff up the other cities a bit, which also encourages more conquering.

How about "internal trade routes originating here provide gold/culture/science". Does that overlap with the Ottos too much?

If it does, how about "all harbors provide +2hammers and +2gold"?

Latter overlaps with carthage.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

Latter overlaps with carthage.

What if it caused internal trade routes to Venice to use Venice's population to determine the yield, rather than the origin city? So instead of shipping the highest yields to a puppet, the puppets ship high yields to Venice.

 

[Atlas627]

What if it caused internal trade routes to Venice to use Venice's population to determine the yield, rather than the origin city? So instead of shipping the highest yields to a puppet, the puppets ship high yields to Venice.

I thought about it, but that seems to just be more of the "make Venice huge", even though it does incentivize getting other cities with which to send trade back to Venice.

 

[Enginseer]

What if it caused internal trade routes to Venice to use Venice's population to determine the yield, rather than the origin city? So instead of shipping the highest yields to a puppet, the puppets ship high yields to Venice.

mrw Venice get nuked, and you lose 40 million people but you good with your 16 trade routes so you get them back within 20 years.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

I thought about it, but that seems to just be more of the "make Venice huge", even though it does incentivize getting other cities with which to send trade back to Venice.

What if it allowed Venice to get culture, say, faith from trade routes to city states?

 

[Gothic_Empire]

mrw Venice get nuked, and you lose 40 million people but you good with your 16 trade routes so you get them back within 20 years.

Oh god, the sidebar spam when Venice grows 20 pop in one turn. o_o

 

[Atlas627]

What if it allowed Venice to get culture, say, faith from trade routes to city states?

Seems like it doesn't make thematic or gameplay sense on the Arsenale, doesn't make thematic sense for Venice, and steps on Germany's toes gameplay-wise.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

Seems like it doesn't make thematic or gameplay sense on the Arsenale, doesn't make thematic sense for Venice, and steps on Germany's toes gameplay-wise.

Eh, nothing makes sense in this game until you make a bunch of faithful leaps about what represents what.

What if units bought with the Arsenale in the city got double the exp the city gives normally? Or what if they got got the Exotic Cargo promotion, or if they yielded extra influence when gifted to a City State?

 

[Gazebo]

What if it caused internal trade routes to Venice to use Venice's population to determine the yield, rather than the origin city? So instead of shipping the highest yields to a puppet, the puppets ship high yields to Venice.

That'd require a rewrite of the AI code.

G

 

[Gothic_Empire]

That'd require a rewrite of the AI code.

G

Bleh.

I'm spitballing ideas. =) I'm not really lobbying for any of these changes. Just trying to help give the Arsenale its niche.