I think I did see your mention of it. I went away, played, stewed, thought about it. When I came back, Funak had a mention of something similar more recently. No disrespect meant!
The idea was to emphasize the way Venice just exploited trade and got super-rich from it. A luxury connector improvement with stronger yields represents getting more out of the luxury than others. Had this idea for the Feitoria a while back but I never mentioned it because G insisted on keeping the Feitoria in the city-states.
One problem I see with it however is that a lot of pantheon-beliefs buffs improvements, meaning you're out of luck with those pantheons. Morocco is in a similar spot however.
I think the bigger problem would be the early start. Aside from the 2 science, losing 1 culture and 2 production from turn 1 hurts. The solution there, IMO, is to make the UI available VERY early. Perhaps on Pottery.
That problem have been looming over this entire discussion since the start.
Something will have to be adjusted with either the UU or the UA to make the early-game bearable.
The idea was to emphasize the way Venice just exploited trade and got super-rich from it. A luxury connector improvement with stronger yields represents getting more out of the luxury than others. Had this idea for the Feitoria a while back but I never mentioned it because G insisted on keeping the Feitoria in the city-states.
One problem I see with it however is that a lot of pantheon-beliefs buffs improvements, meaning you're out of luck with those pantheons. Morocco is in a similar spot however.
To be perfectly fair I suggested it back on page 14, so I suggested it first
Anyway, if MoV gets moved to Trade and market gets the "when you spend gold in city, 10% of the value of gold spent is converted into science", that MoV effectively grants you 120 science. This is almost equal to the cost of a classical era tech. If market also gets the merchant back, I'd say Venice early game is not in bad spot.
Anyway, if MoV gets moved to Trade and market gets the "when you spend gold in city, 10% of the value of gold spent is converted into science", that MoV effectively grants you 120 science. This is almost equal to the cost of a classical era tech. If market also gets the merchant back, I'd say Venice early game is not in bad spot.
At that point of the game an allied city state provides you more than a puppeted one because they have hardly any buildings built. On top of that, the trade mission grants easy gold and a WLTKD. I'd say the choice between the two options is quite easy.
Relying on teching to Trade first and using that Merchant of Venice in a specific way is too much 'one true path' for my tastes. I would rather see them unlock their special Trading Post UI on Wheel or Pottery, and tweak it's numbers to support Venice early game. Using your first MoV as a trade mission, a city acquisition, or even planting a town should be a choice without a singular correct-in-all-circumstances answer.
We are in this situation already. The tech is just a different one.
Removing the free MoV would free up the early game, but we need something to compensate the loss. Maybe a strong UI could provide the necessary yields to keep Venice afloat, but it's starting to sound like a Doge's Palace 2.0.
We are in this situation already. The tech is just a different one.
Removing the free MoV would free up the early game, but we need something to compensate the loss. Maybe a strong UI could provide the necessary yields to keep Venice afloat, but it's starting to sound like a Doge's Palace 2.0.
Disagree. You strongly favor allying a city state with your first MoV, but many strongly favor getting their first puppet ASAP. There is room for playstyle differences at this time. Relying on an early Merchant of Venice allying a Maritime city state to remove the early game boost Venice NEEDS to be effective both quashes playstyle differences and opens up a whole 'nother level of map RNG screwing you.
I'm not saying remove the free MoV from Sailing. I'm saying don't move it.
I feel like you're saying the proposed UI is Doge's Palace 2.0 because it needs to provide early yields. Thing is, it DOES need those early yields. The problem with Doge's Palace isn't the power level, it's the boringness. You have no choice involved, there is no skillful use of this bonus, it just exists as soon as you found Venice. A UI that you tech and build is a much more interesting source of bonuses.
There is room for playstyle differences at this time. Relying on an early Merchant of Venice allying a Maritime city state to remove the early game boost Venice NEEDS to be effective both quashes playstyle differences and opens up a whole 'nother level of map RNG screwing you.
I'm not saying remove the free MoV from Sailing. I'm saying don't move it.
I don't understand how moving the MoV from Sailing to Trade would limit the choices of using it. Those who like to use it for a trade mission can still do that, and those that like to use it to get a puppet can also do that.
I feel like you're saying the proposed UI is Doge's Palace 2.0 because it needs to provide early yields. Thing is, it DOES need those early yields. The problem with Doge's Palace isn't the power level, it's the boringness. You have no choice involved, there is no skillful use of this bonus, it just exists as soon as you found Venice. A UI that you tech and build is a much more interesting source of bonuses.
I felt that you were saying that the only purpose of the improvement was to provide Venice early yields. If that wasn't your intention then I apologize. As long as there is something actually interesting about the UI, I'm all for it.
Why are you guys getting all uncivil without me? Absorbing all the hate is my role.
The way I see it, the unique improvement could either unlock at trade (or something like that) and make very little sense early on. Or we could add some kind of bonus to the Venetian UA and let the unique improvement unlock somewhere around medieval era.
Current UIs are all in either of those two boats.
Ancient era: Kuna, Encampment, Eki, Maoi, Brazilwood camp
Classical (odd one out): Terrace Farm
Medieval era: Polder, Kasbah, Chateau, Feitoria.
To me (at least) the Medieval era feels like a way better fit, I imagine this improvement (actually no matter what it does) to have more in common with the chateau and the feitoria than with the Maoi and Kuna.
This would however require the UI actually giving some kind of early(ish) advantage to Venice to help keep their empire going. Maybe something along the line of "+1 (all?) yields in capital for every city owned", that would be pretty decent early on and pretty pointless by the time you reach medieval era.
I would also like to address an issue that have been brought up before and never actually solved. If we have someone capable of doing 3d models, making a custom "town" (maybe just inverting it, changing color or remove/add something) for the MoV would be nice. The MoV currently provides improved Trade-mission, the ability to buy city-states and the same old Town, which is kinda annoying.
"No new elements, there are plenty of existing elements to choose from and I don't want to write new ones."
On the subject of UB I would be totally fine with a market or possibly harbor replacement, customs house is already occupied and bank kinda comes too late for my tastes. I'm not too sold on the idea of getting yields from spending gold however, feels like it forces you into one specific playstyle, which is already kinda annoying considering venice is pretty one-dimensional already.
"No new elements, there are plenty of existing elements to choose from and I don't want to write new ones."
On the subject of UB I would be totally fine with a market or possibly harbor replacement, customs house is already occupied and bank kinda comes too late for my tastes. I'm not too sold on the idea of getting yields from spending gold however, feels like it forces you into one specific playstyle, which is already kinda annoying considering venice is pretty one-dimensional already.
I don't want to write new functions, but no suggestions thus far in this thread have used all-existing functions. If you lot can't be satisfied with what you have, I guess that's life.
I don't want to write new functions, but no suggestions thus far in this thread have used all-existing functions. If you lot can't be satisfied with what you have, I guess that's life.
How hard would it be to write a unique improvement that can only be built on luxuries and that connects those luxuries? Serious question, if it is too annoying I'll just drop the idea.
Besides that I've actually tried to only use existing functions. Flat yields, extra specialists and buildings adding yields to other buildings (like the amphitheatre and the writers guild)
I sort of do like it. It's unique (for now at least) and works well with Venice and its puppets. However, it does only encourage you to get even more gold, which is something you'll do anyway. And unless it's a market replacement, it does not tackle Venice's main problem, which is the early game. If we cannot rely on MoV to help Venice through the ancient era, then we need something else there.
The problem I see with the unique luxury connector is sea resources. What if you roll a start with whales and crab? You can't build your unique improvement at all in your capital.
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