Venice

[Eagle Pursuit]

There are UBs and UIs that get upgrades from various techs. This is like that, but the upgrades have flavors of their own.

And if you think about it, Indonesia has 6 unique things, and more if you count Kris Swordsman promotions. (In that case, Japan and the Zulu have more too.)

 

[Funak]

1) You have to choose to tech to these buildings. That's a decision point we don't have with the Palace alone.

Let me ask you a question.
If instead of having this system, you just added yields and effects to the Doggie-house at various techs, would you think it was a change over the current system?

2) You still have full control over their effectiveness because they are capital-only. This means a lot of small decision points. A different UB would be less powerful and would have most of its power in how many you could build, which you have far less control over.

3) Because they don't scale with empire size, we can give them cool and powerful effects while also making them a heavy investment. If they are a heavy investment, then it isn't just "well duh I should build them", its which ones and when. This is even more true because they are buildable only in the only city in which you have control, so you need to very carefully prioritize what to build.

Sure, but the whole problem about the doggiehouse is that it being free, and unlocked so early it can't possibly have any interesting mechanics (like the massive culture on the MoMA or the extra trade-routes on the Great Cothon), adding five extra 'addons' on the Doggiepalace and spreading the power between them (as you pretty much have to, you can't exactly just add more power to the civ) you're going to end up with five mediocre wonders with no interesting mechanics on them.

4) It doesn't break the Unique model we have. Venice has a UB that you can invest more hammers into (provided you have the tech) to gain more unique bonuses.

This is a matter on interpretation I guess, and I really don't agree with you here.

 

[Atlas627]

Let me ask you a question.
If instead of having this system, you just added yields and effects to the Doggie-house at various techs, would you think it was a change over the current system?

Yes, yes I would. It would not be, by itself, enough in my opinion, but it would certainly be a change.

Sure, but the whole problem about the doggiehouse is that it being free, and unlocked so early it can't possibly have any interesting mechanics (like the massive culture on the MoMA or the extra trade-routes on the Great Cothon), adding five extra 'addons' on the Doggiepalace and spreading the power between them (as you pretty much have to, you can't exactly just add more power to the civ) you're going to end up with five mediocre wonders with no interesting mechanics on them.

Well the Doge's Palace has power in its current iteration, its just super boring. MOVING that power to different improvements (and buffing it because they now come later and have hammers attached) is totally plausible. Adding enough hammers to justify more powerful abilities is also plausible.

This is a matter on interpretation I guess, and I really don't agree with you here.

You just suggested that simply adding yields to the Doge's Palace at various techs is no different from the current system, yet its also so different it doesn't qualify as one UB?

 

[Funak]

You just suggested that simply adding yields to the Doge's Palace at various techs is no different from the current system, yet its also so different it doesn't qualify as one UB?

No I did not suggest that, I asked what you thought about it. I think this does very little to change the actual issues with the doggiehouse and why it is boring, but I do think it breaks the whole 3 uniques standard that we have set up.

 

[ExpiredReign]

How does the UI react to civs with multiple UBs? Will only one of them show in the setup screen?
That's my only query about this latest idea, I can get onboard with the multiple building line for Venice.

 

[Funak]

How does the UI react to civs with multiple UBs? Will only one of them show in the setup screen?
That's my only query about this latest idea, I can get onboard with the multiple building line for Venice.

Normally they all show up and mess the UI up slightly, but from what I've gathered G would design it so that only the Doggiehouse actually shows up, and the rest are generic buildings/wonders that requires the doggiehouse to be built.

 

[Atlas627]

Ok so time to brainstorm some ideas!

Doge's Palace: Reduce the extra base yields it provides somewhat. Remove the +GP production, tourism, and anti-spy elements. Add "Whenever borders expand in this city, gain +15 food scaling with era" (the Doge originally had full control over Venice, and as a City State the objective was always to increase the wealth of the city itself, represented as more territory and more productive people)

The Great Council: Unlocks at Trade. +2 science, +15 science scaling with era when a building is built in this city (The Great Council of Wise Men took control of all legislative duties in the city. As members of the noble houses, improving the power of the upper class was paramount, represented as more industry and cutting-edge tech to capitalize on)

The Council of Ten: Unlocks at Civil Service. +10 production, +10 defense. Advanced spy actions can't be taken in this city. (The Council of Ten had unprecedented executive power in comparison to the rest of the government. Originally intended as a temporary stopgap against insurrection, the Council of Ten expanded to protect against corruption, espionage, and even started to take on basic legislative duties because they could actually get things done)

Murano Glassworks: Unlocks at Metal Casting. +4 production, +4 culture, +4 science, +4 gold. Doubles all luxuries in this city. (Venetian glassblowers were famous across Europe, and because none were allowed to leave the city, very few other places were able to match. Byzantine refugees with craft skills were taken in, which cause widespread learning and art, known as the Renaissance)

St. Mark's Basilica: Unlocks at Theology. +10 faith, +10 culture, and majority religion pressure emanates at double speed (the Basilica was the center of the state religion, and unlike other Catholic nations, Venice controlled its own church for most of its history. Also Venice needs help with faith and spread in-game)

Venetian Ghetto: Unlocks at Writing. Has a Merchant slot. Trade routes to and from this city provide +3 gold for both parties. (The Ghetto was home to one of Europe's largest and most successful Jewish populations, with familial merchant connections across Europe and the Middle East.)

Venetian Arsenal: Unlocks at Sailing. +5 production, +40% production of naval units, Naval units built here receive +15xp (the Arsenal was a mass-production system which resulted in quick building and repair of ships but also enabled better ships to be built and the expertise to build them to be easily taught)

Gondolieri Guild: Unlocks at Guilds. +15% GP production, and all Venetian UBs provide +2 tourism. (originally, Gondolas were used as the main mode of transportation around the city, and were covered for privacy of their high-class passengers. Nowadays they are one of the main tourist attractions for the city, which is why the covers have been removed)

Grand Canal (we can rename the World Project right?): Unlocks at Engineering. +4 production, +4 gold. All GP improvements worked by this city provide +3 food, +3 culture, and +3 tourism. (the Grand Canal provided easy access to the inside of the city, increasing productivity as goods could be unloaded directly to their destinations. This has allowed for many amazing structures in a dense area, causing cultural intermingling and nowadays tourism. The density is represented with food.)


Just some ideas. Obviously the yields need to be balanced, especially against the hammer cost of the buildings. I would expect these buildings to cost about as much as a National Wonder.

 

[Funak]

Ok so time to brainstorm some ideas!

Doge's Palace: Reduce the extra base yields it provides somewhat. Remove the +GP production, tourism, and anti-spy elements. Add "Whenever borders expand in this city, gain +15 food scaling with era" (the Doge originally had full control over Venice, and as a City State the objective was always to increase the wealth of the city itself, represented as more territory and more productive people)

The Great Council: Unlocks at Trade. +2 science, +15 science scaling with era when a building is built in this city (The Great Council of Wise Men took control of all legislative duties in the city. As members of the noble houses, improving the power of the upper class was paramount, represented as more industry and cutting-edge tech to capitalize on)

The Council of Ten: Unlocks at Civil Service. +10 production, +10 defense. Advanced spy actions can't be taken in this city. (The Council of Ten had unprecedented executive power in comparison to the rest of the government. Originally intended as a temporary stopgap against insurrection, the Council of Ten expanded to protect against corruption, espionage, and even started to take on basic legislative duties because they could actually get things done)

Murano Glassworks: Unlocks at Metal Casting. +4 production, +4 culture, +4 science, +4 gold. Doubles all luxuries in this city. (Venetian glassblowers were famous across Europe, and because none were allowed to leave the city, very few other places were able to match. Byzantine refugees with craft skills were taken in, which cause widespread learning and art, known as the Renaissance)

St. Mark's Basilica: Unlocks at Theology. +10 faith, +10 culture, and majority religion pressure emanates at double speed (the Basilica was the center of the state religion, and unlike other Catholic nations, Venice controlled its own church for most of its history. Also Venice needs help with faith and spread in-game)

Venetian Ghetto: Unlocks at Writing. Has a Merchant slot. Trade routes to and from this city provide +3 gold for both parties. (The Ghetto was home to one of Europe's largest and most successful Jewish populations, with familial merchant connections across Europe and the Middle East.)

Venetian Arsenal: Unlocks at Sailing. +5 production, +40% production of naval units, Naval units built here receive +15xp (the Arsenal was a mass-production system which resulted in quick building and repair of ships but also enabled better ships to be built and the expertise to build them to be easily taught)

Gondolieri Guild: Unlocks at Guilds. +15% GP production, and all Venetian UBs provide +2 tourism. (originally, Gondolas were used as the main mode of transportation around the city, and were covered for privacy of their high-class passengers. Nowadays they are one of the main tourist attractions for the city, which is why the covers have been removed)

Grand Canal (we can rename the World Project right?): Unlocks at Engineering. +4 production, +4 gold. All GP improvements worked by this city provide +3 food, +3 culture, and +3 tourism. (the Grand Canal provided easy access to the inside of the city, increasing productivity as goods could be unloaded directly to their destinations. This has allowed for many amazing structures in a dense area, causing cultural intermingling and nowadays tourism. The density is represented with food.)


Just some ideas. Obviously the yields need to be balanced, especially against the hammer cost of the buildings. I would expect these buildings to cost about as much as a National Wonder.

Wow that's a crapton of bonuses, did you really think this through?


On the topic of the World project name, why would you want to rename it? It is the original Grand canal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canal_(China)

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Ok so time to brainstorm some ideas!

Doge's Palace: Reduce the extra base yields it provides somewhat. Remove the +GP production, tourism, and anti-spy elements. Add "Whenever borders expand in this city, gain +15 food scaling with era" (the Doge originally had full control over Venice, and as a City State the objective was always to increase the wealth of the city itself, represented as more territory and more productive people)

The Great Council: Unlocks at Trade. +2 science, +15 science scaling with era when a building is built in this city (The Great Council of Wise Men took control of all legislative duties in the city. As members of the noble houses, improving the power of the upper class was paramount, represented as more industry and cutting-edge tech to capitalize on)

The Council of Ten: Unlocks at Civil Service. +10 production, +10 defense. Advanced spy actions can't be taken in this city. (The Council of Ten had unprecedented executive power in comparison to the rest of the government. Originally intended as a temporary stopgap against insurrection, the Council of Ten expanded to protect against corruption, espionage, and even started to take on basic legislative duties because they could actually get things done)

Murano Glassworks: Unlocks at Metal Casting. +4 production, +4 culture, +4 science, +4 gold. Doubles all luxuries in this city. (Venetian glassblowers were famous across Europe, and because none were allowed to leave the city, very few other places were able to match. Byzantine refugees with craft skills were taken in, which cause widespread learning and art, known as the Renaissance)

St. Mark's Basilica: Unlocks at Theology. +10 faith, +10 culture, and majority religion pressure emanates at double speed (the Basilica was the center of the state religion, and unlike other Catholic nations, Venice controlled its own church for most of its history. Also Venice needs help with faith and spread in-game)

Venetian Ghetto: Unlocks at Writing. Has a Merchant slot. Trade routes to and from this city provide +3 gold for both parties. (The Ghetto was home to one of Europe's largest and most successful Jewish populations, with familial merchant connections across Europe and the Middle East.)

Venetian Arsenal: Unlocks at Sailing. +5 production, +40% production of naval units, Naval units built here receive +15xp (the Arsenal was a mass-production system which resulted in quick building and repair of ships but also enabled better ships to be built and the expertise to build them to be easily taught)

Gondolieri Guild: Unlocks at Guilds. +15% GP production, and all Venetian UBs provide +2 tourism. (originally, Gondolas were used as the main mode of transportation around the city, and were covered for privacy of their high-class passengers. Nowadays they are one of the main tourist attractions for the city, which is why the covers have been removed)

Grand Canal (we can rename the World Project right?): Unlocks at Engineering. +4 production, +4 gold. All GP improvements worked by this city provide +3 food, +3 culture, and +3 tourism. (the Grand Canal provided easy access to the inside of the city, increasing productivity as goods could be unloaded directly to their destinations. This has allowed for many amazing structures in a dense area, causing cultural intermingling and nowadays tourism. The density is represented with food.)


Just some ideas. Obviously the yields need to be balanced, especially against the hammer cost of the buildings. I would expect these buildings to cost about as much as a National Wonder.

I like it but it seems focused on the early part of the game. Needs more Renaissance.

Also, let's have an art/Artifact slot on the Basilica for the relic of Saint Mark they stole from Egypt and the treasures of Constantinople that were plundered, both housed in the Basilica.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Wow that's a crapton of bonuses, did you really think this through?


On the topic of the World project name, why would you want to rename it? It is the original Grand canal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canal_(China)

I must agree with the funkiest of all Funaks, this is way too many bonuses. Way, way too many. That's why I also dislike this idea of multiple UBs - how are we going to balance that? Either each of them will be weak and there will be complaints of them not being worthwhile or each of them will be strong and Venice will become better at everything compared to other civs, destroying balance.

Seriously, just one of these buildings is about as good as one UB (and better than some UBs), it can't be anywhere near that. With those changes Venice would dominate production, wondermongering, science, gold (even more so), culture, faith, everything. AI Dandolo is doing pretty much fine in my games (runaway in the last one just sitting on his butt and building almost all the wonders), there's no way Venice needs a boost the size of several civs worth of bonuses.

 

[Funak]

I must agree with the funkiest of all Funaks, this is way too many bonuses. Way, way too many. That's why I also dislike this idea of multiple UBs - how are we going to balance that? Either each of them will be weak and there will be complaints of them not being worthwhile or each of them will be strong and Venice will become better at everything compared to other civs, destroying balance.

Seriously, just one of these buildings is about as good as one UB (and better than some UBs), it can't be anywhere near that. With those changes Venice would dominate production, wondermongering, science, gold (even more so), culture, faith, everything. AI Dandolo is doing pretty much fine in my games (runaway in the last one just sitting on his butt and building almost all the wonders), there's no way Venice needs a boost the size of several civs worth of bonuses.

I didn't even look at the techs they unlocked at, figured they were spread out all the way into the information era, but the latest ones were at the first tech in Medieval, ouch.
Also I'm totally not funky, I'm a square.

 

[Adonis VII]

That would be amazing.

Here's a proposal for it:

Trading - Doge's Palace, Culture, Merchant specialist

Sailing - Venetian Arsenal, naval unit XP, production

Theology - Basilica de San Marcos, Faith, Art/Artifact slot

Guilds - Glassworks, Gold, Production

Railroad - Gondolieri Guild, Tourism

As it is a building line, each is a prerequisite for the next.

I would definitely be all for this change. While I like the idea of grabbing more land through a UI to counter limited land grab abilities if you don't have close enough City-States, it's be hard to balance as a replacement for the current UB.

 

[JungleBucks]

As long as we're still brainstorming, here's an obvious thing that came to mind. How about the Dog House gains additional science based on total GPT, that way the more money you're able to generate, the more science you earn, thus allowing you to keep up with other civs in the technology department through your natural trade progression. In fact, the Dog House could follow this system for production and culture too, even going so far as to spread said bonuses to it's City-States as well.

This doesn't have to necessarily be something for the Doge's Palace though. It'd be perfectly fine for some other UB.

 

[Funak]

As long as we're still brainstorming, here's an obvious thing that came to mind. How about the Dog House gains additional science based on total GPT, that way the more money you're able to generate, the more science you earn, thus allowing you to keep up with other civs in the technology department through your natural trade progression. In fact, the Dog House could follow this system for production and culture too, even going so far as to spread said bonuses to it's City-States as well.

This doesn't have to necessarily be something for the Doge's Palace though. It'd be perfectly fine for some other UB.

Ehm, do Venice actually have problems keeping up with other civs in science? Genuine question, I had never noticed it.

 

[JungleBucks]

Ehm, do Venice actually have problems keeping up with other civs in science? Genuine question, I had never noticed it.

With science no longer tied to population, this may not be as big of an issue as it was in the past, but I've heard quite a few complaints from people, both online and personal that complained about Venice's scientific development due to their low (total) population and poor scientific generation in City-States. Even playing as Venice myself, I've never had an occasion where I didn't rely on aggressive spying to stay relevant tech wise. It's certainly not major, and I was able to work around it after a couple of games, but I'd say it...was??? a thing.

(I don't know how they currently fare scientifically however, but regardless, tying the bonuses to gold generation seems like a smart choice for the UB).

Edit: Actually, to allow the player to gain bonuses while also being able to lower their GPT through necessary expanses, this hypothetical bonus would be best if only the total gold earned per turn is taken into account as opposed to 'gold earned - expenses'. I'm not sure if that would make the matter more difficult however.

 

[Atlas627]

I didn't say to use them ALL, I was just thinking of ideas.

That being said, they can all be gated behind hammer costs. I'm not sure that its too much given that Venice can't choose where/how to get cities very easily.

All of the things that made Venice famous were from the Medieval to early Renaissance era. Their decline started after that.

Again, I don't think you'd build each of these things as soon as they became available because there are other critical things to build.

But I should reevaluate the actual yields. The hammer costs are important too though, and I haven't thought about them yet.

 

[tompliss]

Guys, multiple UBs is just as boring as a single Doge Palace !

I think it could be fun if you had to choose between the multiple UBs, but as it stems from Venice's multiple landmarks, it wouldn't really make any sense.

It's basically only unlocking new yields on the doge Palace as you unlock techs (and this has been said already and ignored).
This brings basically no choice.

 

[Funak]

Guys, multiple UBs is just as boring as a single Doge Palace !

I think it could be fun if you had to choose between the multiple UBs, but as it stems from Venice's multiple landmarks, it wouldn't really make any sense.

It's basically only unlocking new yields on the doge Palace as you unlock techs (and this has been said already and ignored).
This brings basically no choice.

Yay a voice of reason!
And by a voice of reason I mean someone who agrees with me, which is pretty arrogant to say the least.

 

[pandasnail]

Venice has one city, essentially, that can build World Wonders. One city that can hardbuild all the trade units to take advantage of the UA. At least currently, one city that really has to build all three guilds, and National Monument. Plus the various other National Wonders at least somewhat go best in Venice, and then all the regular buildings. Plus war units in the part of the game gold can't take care of that by itself. I don't like the idea of this one buildable city being locking into having to build another six or so buildings. If they're each worth building, the production cost won't be small I wouldn't think. I like the idea of this UB, I just think it goes best somewhere else tbh. A civ with a strong vibrant capital, but still has fully functional supportive cities around it that can handle more of the little things. Rome or England or The Aztecs etc.

If we're going to get rid of the Doge Palace, I would much prefer a UI, whether its a luxury one or a coast tiles one or something else that isn't just 'gain tiles'. People keep saying the Doge Palace is boring, and it leaves me confused. I really like the way it lets me choose basically whatever I path I want in the ancient era, combined with no settlers, I can chase wonders and build a conquest army from the jump. But if it must go, getting rid with something workers can put down in puppets would be a better replacement than the six buildings plan imo. Would change the puppets I choose, more luxuries or whatever, but that's relatively fine to me. As someone pointed out somewhere in this thread, I just played as the Dutch, and I made sure all of my cities had maximum river tiles. Same thing.

 

[Funak]

Venice has one city, essentially, that can build World Wonders. One city that can hardbuild all the trade units to take advantage of the UA. At least currently, one city that really has to build all three guilds, and National Monument. Plus the various other National Wonders at least somewhat go best in Venice, and then all the regular buildings. Plus war units in the part of the game gold can't take care of that by itself. I don't like the idea of this one buildable city being locking into having to build another six or so buildings. If they're each worth building, the production cost won't be small I wouldn't think. I like the idea of this UB, I just think it goes best somewhere else tbh. A civ with a strong vibrant capital, but still has fully functional supportive cities around it that can handle more of the little things. Rome or England or The Aztecs etc.

If we're going to get rid of the Doge Palace, I would much prefer a UI, whether its a luxury one or a coast tiles one or something else that isn't just 'gain tiles'. People keep saying the Doge Palace is boring, and it leaves me confused. I really like the way it lets me choose basically whatever I path I want in the ancient era, combined with no settlers, I can chase wonders and build a conquest army from the jump. But if it must go, getting rid with something workers can put down in puppets would be a better replacement than the six buildings plan imo. Would change the puppets I choose, more luxuries or whatever, but that's relatively fine to me. As someone pointed out somewhere in this thread, I just played as the Dutch, and I made sure all of my cities had maximum river tiles. Same thing.

You make a great point.