Venice

[Funak]

Also there's several UB replacements that take the same slot too, like Wat and Korea's University thing, there's also two Temples (at least there were for some time - what is Candi now?). There's also UIs discovered at the same tech like Chateau and Kasbah, for a long time we had two UBs taking Library (Royal Library and previous Paper Maker until it got turned into Tea Thing and back into Paper Maker) and two Monuments back when Rome had Triumphal Arch.

Wat is a constabulary
Candi has always been a garden
All the temple-replacements are now other things
Royal Library is a School of philosophy
Tea thing is now a Paper Maker Library
Triumphal Arch is a Colosseum, which is a unique Arena.

So no, there not 'several UB replacements that take the same slot too' unless you're counting custom civs that we have no control over

 

[Taikavarpu]

Back to the Ducal Mint, how about getting extra yields from completing city state quests?

 

[Funak]

Back to the Ducal Mint, how about getting extra yields from completing city state quests?

I've been thinking about this as a UA, or an addition to a UA, doesn't feel like a very good fit on a building. Actually mentioned it in the Siam thread back when the quest system was first changed, but no one commented on it.

 

[Sendaf]

What if they got a unique national wonder replacing the printing press or 1 of the other diplomatic national wonders

Spawn a military unit at the city when completing a city state quest.
Gain additional yields for the city when completing a city state quest.
+1 paper per 5 population

Or some similar yields which provide a bonus to each of Venice's victory styles

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Gazebo seems pretty intent on using some version of the triple-choice UB. We should keep polishing that concept.

 

[Atlas627]

Well they keep getting price-increases for some weird reason, now the third prophet (first holy-site) is at 2200(or 2400, can't remember) faith, which is crazy. This is sorta not an issue if you're playing with JFDs religion mod I guess, but still.

Yeah its bonkers.

Could work i suppose.

We can always try it and see if its enough. That's +2 food and tourism on GP improvements and villages, in case anyone reading this has forgotten.

I usually end up throwing most of my investment stash on my capital in most games, but that's while not playing Venice I suppose.

Yeah you'd probably be spending most of it on the puppets to try and get some control of their buildings.

It was an example, the number of votes importance scales heavily with the mapsize (and number of city-states available).
Also I believe a duel map have like 4 or 6 city-states, so it's not that bad.

Yeah Duel has 4 CS (always twice the civ count by default), but that's still nowhere to expand. Venice will definitely die vs one opponent, or at least be super outpaced and never get to a Diplomacy victory.

If you want a scaling cap instead of a flat cap, we could make it cap at half the number of CS in the game.

Could also add gold to specialists instead of production.

I wanted to avoid even more gold, but I'm fine with that too.

Well, why would the diplo-building promote capturing city-state? Makes no sense to me at all.

The forbidden palace was way stronger than I actually remembered, the ducat mint should probably cap at the same number of votes as the FP in that case.

I'm not a fan of getting votes for capturing CS, I think it should be flexible and neutral.

I think half the CS count is the strength of the FP, no?

Found this in the Austria thread and loved it:

Llednar Twem

Ew, really don't like this. We also already have a courthouse UB and there are no mutual UB replacements in the game right now.

What if they got a unique national wonder replacing the printing press or 1 of the other diplomatic national wonders

Can't tie anything into CSD, then we'd need a non-CSD version too and G said no.

Spawn a military unit at the city when completing a city state quest.
Gain additional yields for the city when completing a city state quest.
+1 paper per 5 population

The first 2 can be hampered by Venice itself if they eat CS, and we already concluded we don't want that. The third ties into CSD, which we can't do. Are CS quests also CSD?




I think the version we have going right now is pretty good.

Great Council (not naming it Doge's Palace because that might confuse people, but w/e) - Unlocks at Writing, replacing National Epic, +2 food, hammers, gold, culture, science, faith, +25% GP yields (as normal for National Epic), No Advanced Spy Actions in this city, choose 1 of the following upgrades at Guilds

Grand Arsenal (I believe "Grand" Arsenal has historical basis? If not just name Venetian) - Engineer slot, +15% production in the city, +6 defense in the city, Naval units built here get +1 movement, +10% strength called "Venetian Craftsmanship

Murano Glassworks (again, all the glassworks were on the small island of Murano right next to the main island of Venice) - Artist slot, 2 Art/Artifact slots (+5 science when filled by own works 1 each, +3 science if only one requirement filled), +2 food and tourism on GP improvements and villages in this city

Ducat Mint (both words originate from the word Duke and thus Ducal, but Ducal is not the adjective for Ducat; its the adjective for Duke) - Merchant slot, +1 hammer from all specialists in the city, gain 1 vote per 100/gpt nationwide, capping at 1/2 the number of CS originally in the game(this is so that they can eat CS without ruining this effect, especially because they get empire-screwed by less CS anyway), +3 gold to both parties for trade routes to/from this city

 

[Funak]

I think half the CS count is the strength of the FP, no?

One fourth, on most normal maps it's still pretty insane, think it's 4 votes on a standard map, probably 8 on a huge map.

 

[Forsti]

If Venice gets to choose from 3 different buildings, will AI understand it and be able to wait for the second or third one to unlock, or will it simply rush the first building?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

If Venice gets to choose from 3 different buildings, will AI understand it and be able to wait for the second or third one to unlock, or will it simply rush the first building?

All three come at Guilds.

 

[Atlas627]

One fourth, on most normal maps it's still pretty insane, think it's 4 votes on a standard map, probably 8 on a huge map.

That makes more sense. 1/4th is fine.

If Venice gets to choose from 3 different buildings, will AI understand it and be able to wait for the second or third one to unlock, or will it simply rush the first building?

The base building unlocks the other 3, all of which unlock at the same tech.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Would it be possible to increase Allied city-states' resistance to coups? That would be a good trait for a diplomacy building.

Would you be willing to consider this instead of the votes per gold on the Ducat Mint, GamerKG?

 

[Atlas627]

Would you be willing to consider this instead of the votes per gold on the Ducat Mint, GamerKG?

I'm always willing to consider! And its not like I'm in charge or anything, I'm just trying to keep pushing forward

Anyway, I think that's a non-interactive attribute, much like the anti-Advanced Spy Actions on the base building. Its power, but it isn't cool, and there's really no way of using it more/less efficiently. I put the anti-advanced spy actions on the base building because it wouldn't drive anyone's choices, its just a tacked-on extra to help Venice out.

Also the votes help Venice actually win the game or at least have power in the World Congress. Other civs can actually build ambassadors, can make enough faith for missionaries and have enough cities for passive spread to actually get votes from religion, have enough national population to build all the Civil Servant slot-providing National Wonders (though this may have changed with the most recent build), and so on. Venice needs a way, independent of the CS it needs to eat, to get votes, since most of the normal ones don't work. So I really think votes in some form should stay.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I'm always willing to consider! And its not like I'm in charge or anything, I'm just trying to keep pushing forward

Anyway, I think that's a non-interactive attribute, much like the anti-Advanced Spy Actions on the base building. Its power, but it isn't cool, and there's really no way of using it more/less efficiently. I put the anti-advanced spy actions on the base building because it wouldn't drive anyone's choices, its just a tacked-on extra to help Venice out.

Also the votes help Venice actually win the game or at least have power in the World Congress. Other civs can actually build ambassadors, can make enough faith for missionaries and have enough cities for passive spread to actually get votes from religion, have enough national population to build all the Civil Servant slot-providing National Wonders (though this may have changed with the most recent build), and so on. Venice needs a way, independent of the CS it needs to eat, to get votes, since most of the normal ones don't work. So I really think votes in some form should stay.

Fair enough.

 

[Taikavarpu]

Grand Arsenal (I believe "Grand" Arsenal has historical basis? If not just name Venetian) - Engineer slot, +15% production in the city, +6 defense in the city, Naval units built here get +1 movement, +10% strength called "Venetian Craftsmanship

Great Lighthouse, Grand Canal and Imperialism opener already give extra movement and sight for naval units. Elizabeth also has her +2 movement bonus. Are there really no other smart ways to buff ships? It's getting a bit repetitive.

Also, a simple +10% combat bonus feels kind of boring to be honest. Great Canal's combat bonus at least only applies when attacking, so there is a some sort of tactical aspect to it.

Ducat Mint (both words originate from the word Duke and thus Ducal, but Ducal is not the adjective for Ducat; its the adjective for Duke) - Merchant slot, +1 hammer from all specialists in the city, gain 1 vote per 100/gpt nationwide, capping at 1/2 the number of CS originally in the game(this is so that they can eat CS without ruining this effect, especially because they get empire-screwed by less CS anyway), +3 gold to both parties for trade routes to/from this city

I would prefer gold over production for specialists. It would have straight synergy with the '1 vote per 100gpt'-ability and there is more extra production available for specialists right now anyway.

All in all, the whole thing is starting to look pretty good.

 

[Funak]

Great Lighthouse, Grand Canal and Imperialism opener already give extra movement and sight for naval units. Elizabeth also has her +2 movement bonus. Are there really no other smart ways to buff ships? It's getting a bit repetitive.

Also, a simple +10% combat bonus feels kind of boring to be honest. Great Canal's combat bonus at least only applies when attacking, so there is a some sort of tactical aspect to it.

Pretty much my thought on it as well, giving access to more movespeed feels like it is overlapping too much with England.

I thought the +10% CS was pretty nifty as the heroic epic buff doesn't work on ships.

 

[Taikavarpu]

I thought the +10% CS was pretty nifty as the heroic epic buff doesn't work on ships.

A good point. I guess +10% cs is fine then.

 

[Taikavarpu]

Since the Arsenal is geared towards conquest, what if we slap a +10% cs versus cities on top of the regular +10%cs and forget the extra movement and sight? Too strong? Too weak? If so, then the value can be altered.

 

[Atlas627]

Great Lighthouse, Grand Canal and Imperialism opener already give extra movement and sight for naval units. Elizabeth also has her +2 movement bonus. Are there really no other smart ways to buff ships? It's getting a bit repetitive.

Well I was trying to use effects that already exist to help out G. An appropriate boost thematically that would also be interesting is +20% CS in coast as the whole ability. Its hard to do things for naval units because there is generally no terrain cost/defense to work with, not much in the way of terrain types or LoS blocks, only 2 real unit types (plus cities plus land units I guess), and then movement and sight are the only aspects left.

Also, a simple +10% combat bonus feels kind of boring to be honest. Great Canal's combat bonus at least only applies when attacking, so there is a some sort of tactical aspect to it.

Movement has a tactical aspect, but sure. +20% CS in coast?

I would prefer gold over production for specialists. It would have straight synergy with the '1 vote per 100gpt'-ability and there is more extra production available for specialists right now anyway.

All in all, the whole thing is starting to look pretty good.

My reasoning was mostly that the building (and the civ) is already swimming in gold, so for it to feel impactful it would have to start getting bloated. We can try +1 gold for now if you want though.

Since the Arsenal is geared towards conquest, what if we slap a +10% cs versus cities on top of the regular +10%cs and forget the extra movement and sight? Too strong? Too weak? If so, then the value can be altered.

I never suggested extra movement and sight because that would be identical to the Great Lighthouse. If we can't do something more unique like +20% CS in coast, then I'm fine with +10% vs cities +10% always as the bonus.

 

[Taikavarpu]

I never suggested extra movement and sight because that would be identical to the Great Lighthouse. If we can't do something more unique like +20% CS in coast, then I'm fine with +10% vs cities +10% always as the bonus.

I actually meant to say "extra movement or sight".

Anyway, I'm just happy that we finally have a new UB, even if there are some minor quirks to adjust. The cap for votes probably needs to be changed at least. I play with standard settings so it's not really an issue for me, but with different map sizes, it can be too weak or too strong.

 

[PurpleMentat]

Just hit Guilds. Looked over the list.
Arsenale - That's pretty friggin tempting, 15% production and 10% naval strength?
Glassworks - 2 food and Tourism per Great Person and Village?! That's... it's nice, but not as good as the Arsenale. Artist specialist and 5 science Theming bonus are... eh.
Rialto - Oh gods 3 gold incoming and outgoing? AND extra delegates for money?! Hhrrnng how do I pick between this and Arsenale?

Glassworks needs something to compete with the other two. I get that it's geared towards Culture victory, which is my least favorite victory, but Great Works and theming bonuses are not the big Tourism generators in CBP. Maybe a Culture one time yield for completing a trade route with a major civ?

I think the other two are in a fun and interesting place. It's a REALLY tough choice between them, and they lend themselves to different playstyles.