Version 1.8 Feedback

What is the offworlder promotion for?

Movement cost changes now mean that a workers move only 1 tile through deserts. This has big gameplay impacts. Intended?

*edit*
Ideal solution IMO would be to have workers get 2 movement through deserts back following Stillsuits tech.
 
To boost Harkonnen, I strongly suggest we implement the long-intended changes of making slaves 2 movement and able to enter deserts like regular workers.
If slaves are able to build harvesters, this will be a BIG boost for Harkonnen.
[Also; somewhat amusing for the human player to be able to make worms go away by feeding them slaves....]

Also; can we make the slaves zero maintenance cost? We don't want the AI to ever get messed up by maintenance costs from slaves.
I agree entirely. And yes, it would be quite amusing to 'feed' slaves to the worms (hat tip) to make them go away. I remember that in the movie, Beast Rabban ripped Liet Kyne's stillsuit and sent him out to 'his' desert to die (so from that standpoint it fits the Harkonnen theme perfectly). The Harkonnens did not take good care of their slaves in the books so zero maintenance cost for slaves seems good from a thematic standpoint as well. Truly superb suggestions!
 
How is City Watch supposed to work?
Infantry seem to start with it free, but it is a selectable promotion for other Guardsmen units.
 
Now that no other civs can adopt slavery, the Harks may get further behind. It's possible that increasing the hammer benefit from a whip may counter this. I am sure that by increasing the hammer benefit "enough", we can make it an advantage. But after you selected 45, did you do some autoplays to see if Hark still lags behind?

I have seen them dominate the game in an autoplay with these settings, but I have also seen them do not too well. I still think there is scope to increase iProductionPerPopulation further perhaps to 60 which would be double the vanilla value.

There is also the possibility of investigating the AI code a bit to see if there is a way to make it slightly more reluctant to whip.

The changes to Slaves as described make sense to me as well.

What is the offworlder promotion for?

This is redundant now. It is a leftover from me playing around with movement and stillsuits etc.

Movement cost changes now mean that a workers move only 1 tile through deserts. This has big gameplay impacts. Intended?

Not exactly. The increase in movement cost in Desert was to make sure that units that acquire Stillsuits from goody huts or Water Debt can't move 2 tiles per turn with the homeground promotion on desert.

Ideal solution IMO would be to have workers get 2 movement through deserts back following Stillsuits tech.

This is doable provided I can figure out how Worker promotions work. I know Fall Further has them.

Edit: This was pretty easy to do using just XML. I created a UNITCOMBAT for Worker and then give that to the Worker unit. Now I can have a Sandworker (or some other name) promo that automatically applied to your Worker units on discovery of Stillsuits and halves movement cost on desert.

How is City Watch supposed to work?
Infantry seem to start with it free, but it is a selectable promotion for other Guardsmen units.

It's meant to be free to all Guardsmen units and non-selectable. The idea is to replace the free First Strike with a First Strike only in cities. I must have screwed up or forgotten to completely implement this.

When a player founds Mahdi, each of their (non-holy) cities has a 2/3 probability of instantly adopting Mahdi.

When a player founds Quizarate, an event triggers that gives that player ~4 Qizarate missionaries.

I like these two, shouldn't be too hard to implement. In fact, I think the Qizarate change just involves changing CIV4ReligionInfos.xml:
Code:
<FreeUnitClass>UNITCLASS_QIZARATE_ADVOCATE</FreeUnitClass>
[COLOR="Red"]<iFreeUnits>4</iFreeUnits>[/COLOR]
... so that the founder receive 4 missionaries.

What about Technocracy? Instant spreading or free missionaries?
 
This is redundant now.
Ok. We should probably disable it unless we can think of a purpose for it, to avoid confusion.

The idea is to replace the free First Strike with a First Strike only in cities.
Why?
I'm not sure I see a need for this.
It doesn't really make logical sense (if anything ranged weapons will get more chance to fire first when out in the open, rather than urban warfare).
And part of the purpose of guardsmen units (particularly rocket trooper types) is stack guards.
I don't see any need for them to not get first strikes when outside cities. And having a bonus for guardsmen that triggers when *attacking* cities is... weird.

What about Technocracy? Instant spreading or free missionaries?
Yeah, I'm just not sure.
It would be good if the 3 methods were different.
How about; 3 (or 4) cities guaranteed with Mahdi.
4 missionaries with Qizarate.
20% chance of each of your city insta-convert with Technocracy?
 
I have done some further experimentation with Mahdi adoption by the AI.

I've implemented the 2/3 chance instant spread when Mahdi is founded and it works quite nicely in terms of getting the AI to choose Mahdi as its State Religion. However, there are further hurdles with getting the AI to do a proper Mahdi tidal wave jihad.

1. The AI seems to leave the Temple of the Mahdi unbuilt pretty often, even if I halve the cost and set the AI Weight to 1000.
2. The AI favours Bladesmen over Mahdi Zealots for city assault stacks.
3. The AI doesn't understand that Mahdi Zealots have no maintenance and can therefore be spammed.

I will carry on experimenting.
 
1. The AI seems to leave the Temple of the Mahdi unbuilt pretty often, even if I halve the cost and set the AI Weight to 1000.

This is very odd. The AI doesn't see military production bonuses as a priority?
Maybe we should increase its culture yield?

2. The AI favours Bladesmen over Mahdi Zealots for city assault stacks.
Possible things to check:
a) iPower ratings; does the Zealot have lower iPower rating, because of its lowered cost?
b) Unit AIs; maybe if we give the zealot identical AI roles (make sure it has city raider?).

3. The AI doesn't understand that Mahdi Zealots have no maintenance and can therefore be spammed.
An alternative mechanism; rather than having zealots be spammable (which the AI might not do, but the player might abuse), perhaps we should have temples produce them randomly each turn, with a mechanism similar to the Planar Gate from FFH; in each turn in each city with a Mahdi temple, there is a 15% chance (scaled by game speed?) that a free zealot will show up there.
So the zealots are *free*, but there nothing you can do to increase their build rate other than building more temples.

Having them free might simulate the idea of fanatical congregants showing up and volunteering to fight for the Messiah.
 
1. The AI seems to leave the Temple of the Mahdi unbuilt pretty often, even if I halve the cost and set the AI Weight to 1000.

This building relies on an sdk mod you made, to add to the military production. Is that correct? Then unless you also added a term for this to the AI building selection routine, it doesn't give that any special weight. However, it should still respond to iAIWeight. Try setting it to 10,000. There is nothing wrong with putting a huge value here. The AI may need more encouragement to overcome a high hammer cost. If that still does not work, look at my python code for AI_chooseProduction for building the spice corporation building. This code was added and removed as we added and removed that building, but it *forced* the AI to build this building as soon as it was possible.

3. The AI doesn't understand that Mahdi Zealots have no maintenance and can therefore be spammed.

How did you reach this conclusion? It could be; but it may be worthwhile to find the name of the access function that is used to tell whether a unit has maintenance. Then check in the AI unit selection routine, to see if there is a term for this in computing the unit weight. If not it is probably worthwhile to mention this to the BBAI team. Missing this seems like a bug.

ahriman said:
An alternative mechanism; rather than having zealots be spammable (which the AI might not do, but the player might abuse), perhaps we should have temples produce them randomly each turn, with a mechanism similar to the Planar Gate from FFH; in each turn in each city with a Mahdi temple, there is a 15% chance (scaled by game speed?) that a free zealot will show up there.

Interesting. I had implemented free drafted units for Atreides in version 1.2 or something way back, and you strongly objected it was too powerful.
 
This building relies on an sdk mod you made, to add to the military production. Is that correct?

No, the Temple uses the standard vanilla Military Production bonus - no custom code involved.
 
This building relies on an sdk mod you made, to add to the military production. Is that correct? Then unless you also added a term for this to the AI building selection routine, it doesn't give that any special weight.
Good point.

but it *forced* the AI to build this building as soon as it was possible.
This would not be ideal; do we want to force the temple to the the first building built in all newly conquered cities?

I had implemented free drafted units for Atreides in version 1.2 or something way back, and you strongly objected it was too powerful.

Yes, I objected to this because:
a) The spawn rate was high, so you could get a *large* army for free
b) It made no thematic sense for Atreides as a faction to have a large army of low-quality units
c) It spawned the best available guardsman unit, not just a particular melee unit designed to be disposable that is rapidly outclassed except in large quantities.

So I see these as being quite different in gameplay terms.
 
Two more issues from my second full game (1.8.0.1, I will install 1.8.0.2 after I am finished with the current game):
- Sapho Juice does not work. I guess a Sapho Juice supplier should appear but it is not there. I acquired the resource before I had access to mentats.
- Great convention gives +2 :) from barracks. If that is intended it should show in the civics screen (took me a while to realize why my capital was suddenly unhappy after a civic switch).
I guess the fact that you can only have 1 mentat per city (even when they are different) is intented.

I see the game is still in full development. Keep up the good work! Personally I don't mind if the factions are not balanced, I prefer diversity. Back in the ancient times I loved to play Master of Magic and try to win with the crappy races.
 
Great convention gives +2 from barracks.
Its intended.
Not the most interesting effect, I'll grant.
Maybe should remove or weaken it to +1; otherwise its too strong relative to imperial fealty (unless you Draft a lot).

I guess the fact that you can only have 1 mentat per city (even when they are different) is intented
Yes, intended, AFAIK. Otherwise you just stack them all in one city.
I worry a bit about mentat balance though. I tend to find that the military XP one is the only decent one. The other bonuses are very small.

They might also be more interesting if they gave absolute bonuses in some cases instead of % bonuses.

Back in the ancient times I loved to play Master of Magic and try to win with the crappy races.
Me, I always liked high men, high elves and dark elves :-)
 
Its intended.
Not the most interesting effect, I'll grant.
Maybe should remove or weaken it to +1; otherwise its too strong relative to imperial fealty (unless you Draft a lot).

To me it was quite relevant, 2 :) allowed some cities to grow again. So allthough minor, it cannot be that hard to correct the text with the civic so I know what I am chosing.

Yes, intended, AFAIK. Otherwise you just stack them all in one city.
I worry a bit about mentat balance though. I tend to find that the military XP one is the only decent one. The other bonuses are very small.

They might also be more interesting if they gave absolute bonuses in some cases instead of % bonuses.

Hmm, actually they DO give absolute bonus and that is why I find the production mentat the one that is completely out of balance: 10 :hammers: or 3 :gold: , what choice is that? Even in my military city I toke the :hammers: over XP.

Me, I always liked high men, high elves and dark elves :-)

:lol: I must confess I alway rushed to a barbarian city of one of one of the superior races to start spamming settlers there. Paladins where the best. Those slingers (forgot the race) went quite well too though.
 
Hmm, actually they DO give absolute bonus and that is why I find the production mentat the one that is completely out of balance: 10 or 3 , what choice is that? Even in my military city I toke the over XP.

I honestly forgot, its been a while since I use them.

But XP is massively more useful than a few hammers.

Stacking up settled bursegs with +100% military production in a production city, with Kanly, produce new units with level ~4+. Big bonus.
 
- Sapho Juice does not work. I guess a Sapho Juice supplier should appear but it is not there. I acquired the resource before I had access to mentats.
When you build a Landing Stage and select Sapho Juice, the city should have access to two Sapho Juice bonuses. You can check this in the city screen for that city. The bonus should also be visible in all your connected cities. The only thing Sapho Juice does is to improve the abilities of your mentats. There is no supplier building. What is it, that you think is not working?
Personally I don't mind if the factions are not balanced, I prefer diversity.
If you feel that some faction is too weak or too strong, please let us know the details. Otherwise we cannot improve the balance.
 
Wow! I just finished playing the Fremen (Stillgar) on Immortal. It could be my imagination, but it seemed like the difficulty was somewhat higher than before. I still *managed* to win however (158,000+:p). The only complaint I have is that barbarian crysknife fighters (aka Staban Tuek) appear too early and in too vast numbers (could be the difficulty level?) It is impossible to defend against them when you don't even have infantry. Naturally, I beelined to Stillsuits, but still, it might be a good idea to tweak the minimum turns required before crysknife fighters can spawn.

@ Deliverator - the XML fixes I posted are fine (i.e. no crashes or unwanted/unintended behavior) so feel free to include them in the next patch (only if you want to;)). The game I just played used the modified XML.

P.S. The AI seems to 'like' (i.e. has many units with) the Zeal I promotion. Good addition to the unit promotion list IMO.
 
When you build a Landing Stage and select Sapho Juice, the city should have access to two Sapho Juice bonuses. You can check this in the city screen for that city. The bonus should also be visible in all your connected cities. The only thing Sapho Juice does is to improve the abilities of your mentats. There is no supplier building. What is it, that you think is not working?

If you feel that some faction is too weak or too strong, please let us know the details. Otherwise we cannot improve the balance.

I see the resource in the city screen but my mentats only give the normal boost, not the extra bonus one would expect from the Sapho Juice. When checking F12 I thought I saw there should be a building, but I am not sure about that (at work ATM). Anyway, I get 10 :hammers: + 10% , not 15. Same for the spy mentat.

I don't think a specific faction is overpowered. I was commenting on the balance discussion you guys had over the Harkonnen. What I meant to say is, I rather see very different factions, even if this means that one is stronger than the others. It can give you a very different game each time you play.
 
The only complaint I have is that barbarian crysknife fighters (aka Staban Tuek) appear too early and in too vast numbers (could be the difficulty level?)

Yeah, I'm still not sure about barbarian crysknife fighters. We removed them before for a reason; they were random death to anyone trying to expand; could easily race across the desert and destroy a scout thopter with a settler in it. Not fun.
I haven't tested sufficiently post-patch, I've been playing through a game as Ordos and barbs weren't much of a problem because I started on a small island boxed in by other civs.

Oh; I'm also unsure about the "Staban Tuek" for barbarians. It still seems very very odd for him to be controlling the worms.

P.S. The AI seems to 'like' (i.e. has many units with) the Zeal I promotion. Good addition to the unit promotion list IMO.
Just as long as it doesn't get too many; the AI doesn't actually know how to use it (ie only on offensive units, in enemy territory).
 
Further to the discussions about the Mahdi religion...

More assorted observations and possible ideas.

I'm wondering whether really the effects of Fanaticism, Jihad and Divine Mandate taken together really warrant 3 techs. Perhaps 2 would be enough.

Jihad and Divine Mandate are both dead-end techs which is not great for early-ish techs.

Mahdi often appears after Hardened Bladesman is available meaning the AI does not bother with Mahdi Zealots. Having Mahdi founded a bit earlier helps with this. It feels it usually comes a bit late to be really effective in the hands of the AI.

Some possible reworking:
1. Remove Jihad and add effects including founding of Mahdi to Fanaticism. Perhaps change the tech path Fanaticism -> Divine Mandate -> Feudalism or find another way to make Divine Mandate non-dead-end (prereq for Academies?)
2. Make Fanaticism more a bit more expensive.
3. Allow Crysknife Fighters and Bladesman to upgrade to Mahdi Zealots AND/OR auto-replace all Melee units with Mahdi Zealots on discovery of Mahdi. (I tested the former and finally saw the AI using stacks of Zealots in attack.) I think it would help the AI if the Mahdi Zealot and new Mahdi Mujahid were woven in with main Melee unit upgrade path.
4. Make Mahdi Zealots +10% city attack which from testing appears to make the AI value them as better city attackers than Bladesman (6 str +10% vs 5 str +25%).
5. Reduce the natural spread rate of Mahdi even more, but add the 2/3 chance auto-flipping previously discussed. (From testing, the auto-flipping with the current spread rate can lead to two or three civs adopting Mahdi)
 
1. Remove Jihad and add effects including founding of Mahdi to Fanaticism. Perhaps change the tech path Fanaticism -> Divine Mandate -> Feudalism or find another way to make Divine Mandate non-dead-end (prereq for Academies?)

Hmm. Maybe. That might be too early to beeline though.
Maybe if Fanaticism founds it, but Divine Mandate is needed for Zealots?

Might be ok with:
2. Make Fanaticism more a bit more expensive.
But we don't want Fanaticsm to be *too* late. I think it should be a risky but feasible strategy to beeline fanaticism rather than getting economy techs, and blitzing a nearby civ out of the game while they have at best a few infantry.

Allow Crysknife Fighters and Bladesman to upgrade to Mahdi Zealots AND/OR auto-replace all Melee units with Mahdi Zealots on discovery of Mahdi.
Maybe... I'd prefer the former to the latter.

I think it would help the AI if the Mahdi Zealot and new Mahdi Mujahid were woven in with main Melee unit upgrade path.
This is dangerous because of the no upkeep on those units and the low cost. Building a massive army of Zealots that you can then hang around upkeep free through peacetime should not allow you to easily convert those into, say, a sizeable instant army of shield troopers.
I think in general the Zealot/Mujahid line should be kept separate.
I don't strongly object to bladesmen upgrading to zealots, but Zealots should not be able to upgrade to anything but Mujahid.

We do not what the Zealot units to be superior melee units, or close counterparts to the regular melee line. They should feel different; the design goal with zealot should be to have masses of cheap, disposable low-quality hordes, rather than professional soldiers of quality.
See some of my other suggestions above that might help accomplish this; making Zealots *only* get Zeal promotions (or a limited line of promotions in general), or having Zealots auto-spawn at a fixed rate from Temple buildings rather than be constructed with hammers.
The latter might help the AI use a mix of zealots and bladesmen, since the AI will tend to build the highest strength unit even if a more cost-efficient weaker one exists.

Make Mahdi Zealots +10% city attack which from testing appears to make the AI value them as better city attackers than Bladesman (6 str +10% vs 5 str +25%).
Again I don't want to make these units too similar.
In my mind, zealots should not be unambiguously better than Bladesmen. They should be cheap, disposable and swarmy. Bladesmen should still be better as specialist city attackers.

5. Reduce the natural spread rate of Mahdi even more, but add the 2/3 chance auto-flipping previously discussed. (From testing, the auto-flipping with the current spread rate can lead to two or three civs adopting Mahdi)
Sounds fine, particularly if we bring founding earlier.
I have no objection to having only a single faction adopt Mahdi pre-conquest.
 
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