Version 1.8 Feedback

[Ahriman]

We're not going to try to emulate the plot from the book, but we do want to capture the flavor of factions. When two of our Atreides leaders are Leto II and Alia, we need

One way we talked about before was to have Leto and Alia use variants of FFH Adaptive and Insane to represent pulling info from past lives.

 

[Jester Fool]

One way we talked about before was to have Leto and Alia use variants of FFH Adaptive and Insane to represent pulling info from past lives.

Actually, the Philosophical and Religious traits are perfect IMO for Leto II. On the other hand, Alia having the Insane trait would be a good change to make (and would better reflect the books).

 

[davidlallen]

After all the original Civilization cannot really emulate the course of actual history either.

What do you mean? Isn't it a historical fact that Abraham Lincoln lived in Washington, DC for 6000 years?

 

[Ahriman]

Nah, it was only 5865 years, they killed him in the end, just down the street from where I'm sitting.

 

[Random Walker]

Played a Fremen terraforming game (only Chieftain level, heh). Was only ever at war once and very briefly and non-intensely (Irrulan DOW'd me, but there were only a few skirmishes and no cities attacked before peace deal -- and it was much too late anyway, w/ moi having many Reservoirs up and having only a few tiles left to terraform before hitting the 3% 'formed mark). Very nifty mechanic.


Misc observations during that game --

- Civlopedia for the Saboteur and Face Dancer are possibly obsolete as the text says "replacement for Infiltrator but nothing special yet" or some such, but the promotion trees suggest special missions available to both.

- Slightly odd that Fremen can ride worms in tiles with moisture.

- Fremen possibly shouldn't require Offworld Trade to get reinforcements? OTOH, the Southern Sietches seem willing to offer me vehicles like missile launchers, Locust Interceptors and Light Carryalls for prices that seem cheap for stuff that theoretically they're capturing, not building.

- Fremen can also build interceptors, carryalls, et al, not just capture them. Is the bit in 'Dune Wars Concepts' about them not training vehicles obsolete, or something that is intended but hasn't yet been implemented?

- On a related note, perhaps the Guild should charge more money or provide fewer units to other factions that choose Arrakis Paradise, since they're completely dependent upon melange. If we go by the original Dune, they would probably charge less for any Arrakis Spice factions at war with terraformers.

OTOH, they accepted bribes to keep Arrakis space clear of satellites, so they essentially abetted the terraforming by helping to conceal it... Hm.

- Fremen currently can produce Shield Infantry, something that they had little regard for at least in the first book.

 

[Ahriman]

Thanks for the feedback, as always.

Slightly odd that Fremen can ride worms in tiles with moisture.

It would be too annoying and MMy to do otherwise, IMO, particularly when there is no graphical indication of moisture.

Fremen possibly shouldn't require Offworld Trade to get reinforcements? OTOH, the Southern Sietches seem willing to offer me vehicles like missile launchers, Locust Interceptors and Light Carryalls for prices that seem cheap for stuff that theoretically they're capturing, not buildin

I think its still wise to have an early mid-game tech for Fremen unit purchase, otherwise might be too easy to purchase an army early game and swamp your opponent. Or they could waste their entire purchase set on early-game units but not have any use for them.
We've talked about tweaking it, but I haven't thought of any particularly good ways as yet.

The long-run goal for Fremen is to remove their ability to build suspensors, carryalls etc. entirely, but that would require a lot of AI changes, and so might not be possible. And I think we should remove non-combat units from the for-purchase lists of every faction.

- Fremen can also build interceptors, carryalls, et al, not just capture them. Is the bit in 'Dune Wars Concepts' about them not training vehicles obsolete, or something that is intended but hasn't yet been implemented?

Well, they can't build rollers, quads or scorpions. See above for long-term goals.
But for now, leaving them unable to build interceptors would make them too vulnerable to bombers (especially since rocket troops aren't sand-riders atm), and making them unable to build carryalls would make them unable to move guardsmen or great person or various other unit types across desert.

- On a related note, perhaps the Guild should charge more money or provide fewer units to other factions that choose Arrakis Paradise, since they're completely dependent upon melange. If we go by the original Dune, they would probably charge less for any Arrakis Spice factions at war with terraformers.
OTOH, they accepted bribes to keep Arrakis space clear of satellites, so they essentially abetted the terraforming by helping to conceal it... Hm.

We've thought about things like this (or banning offworld purchase for terraformers) but never came to any conclusions. Not sure if its worth the hassle.

Fremen currently can produce Shield Infantry, something that they had little regard for at least in the first boo

We should make sure they have unit art that never gets a shield graphic. I'm not sure though that its worth creating an identical UU version with a different name.
Its always hard trying to fit all the different factions into the same tech tree and unit list.

 

[yiumlaien]

just a short question about game speed:
some mods are optimized for certain game speeds...
what would be the "best" game speed for dune wars?

 

[davidlallen]

Ahriman will say that epic speed is best because the effective movement rate (per tech level, say) is higher. I play on normal. I am not sure we have done a survey, but either normal or epic seem like good bets.

 

[Random Walker]

I could see Fremen sietches getting substantial bonuses in terms of resisting collateral damage and ground assault (being underground complexes and the like, and the latter also related to having a highly militant population), but it'd probably be too obnoxiously difficult to go further and implement reduced visibility (e.g. sietches not being as easily detected, sandriders not being noticed as anything but a sandworm at least from a distance. Doubt the Civ IV engine is set up for detailed spotting levels).

Playing a Tleilax game. Face Dancers are interesting -- the impersonate commander mission in particular. Noticed that 'disband' is an option.

 

[Ahriman]

A thought; we could make Sietches a Force Shield UB.

I don't like the impersonate commander mission personally....

I had a proposal a while back to majorly rework Espionage, to make units much more focused, more varied by faction and make the AI performance better by severely limiting the number of espionage options available to the various units.
Not sure if David/Deliverator are still on board for implementing something like this.

I can hunt down the design and repost for discussion if there is interest.

 

[Jester Fool]

I had a proposal a while back to majorly rework Espionage, to make units much more focused, more varied by faction and make the AI performance better by severely limiting the number of espionage options available to the various units.
Not sure if David/Deliverator are still on board for implementing something like this.

I can hunt down the design and repost for discussion if there is interest.

Don't know if this means much, but I was quite interested in your ideas pertaining to reworking espionage. The Dune Wars forum has been somewhat quiet recently (at least as far as development goes - RL interfering my guess). I am actually surprised David hasn't added any feedback to your recently proposed health changes (an area well worth re-working IMO). I am playing FfH right now, but I would rather play the next patch for Dune Wars. Anyway, if you have any ideas you want to bat around, I would be more than happy to discuss.

 

[Random Walker]

Just checking -- is it deliberate that axolotl tanks can clone Warlord-specific promotions?

If so... niiiiice.

 

[davidlallen]

Just checking -- is it deliberate that axolotl tanks can clone Warlord-specific promotions?

I had not thought of that. But, it seems OK. The point of the tank is to clone the unit commander, and benefit from all his skills. It does not affect the hammer cost of the unit, which represents physically building/buying the vehicles, weapons, ammo etc.

Does this seem to allow an exploit?

I have been reading the DW sub-forum regularly, but since January I have not done any development on it. For a few months I was working on an unreleased fantasy mod with dragons. But, I am bothered by the banner at the top of the civfan page which announces, "82 days left till Civ 5 is released". I read this as, "All Civ 4 mods will be obsolete in 82 days and one minute".

Deliverator has posted a few times in June, but I also assume RL is there.

 

[Ahriman]

Absolutely, RL takes priority. I may go quiet for a while later this summer when I finally try and get my dissertation completed and defended.
I think we should aim to wrap up Dunewars to a "final" design some time this year (though there will be some overlap past Civ5 release).

I am continuing to develop some (in my opinion) fantastically awesome design ideas for a Civ5 Rome mod/scenario (kinda The Road to War mod for Civ4 meets Europa Universalis meats SPQR mod for Rome:Total War; basically a very detailed historic scenario designed to be played primarily from a single perspective (that of Rome), but with very high attention to flavor and challenge). But of course I remain technically incompetent, and so would need real modders who were actually interested in creating such a thing. And its a tough call to get people to code something that isn't their own idea. Maybe I'd write up some design elements to try to raise interest.

I'm also up for design work on any other civ5 mod that sounds interesting.

* * *
I still think it would be really cool for Axolotl tanks to give some kind of Immortality effect variant, as discussed before. I think the current impact is underwhelming.

 

[Random Walker]

*shrug* Re: the axolotl tanks, no real exploits per se. It *can* be pretty strong -- e.g. with Theocracy, Kanly, barracks and a single warlord you can get a unit with 28 or so XP, which can then subsequently earn more XP at double rate and be upgraded for free. Take one of them and add a second warlord, and the same unit type can be produced with nearly 50 XP to start -- quite strong.

 

[Ahriman]

Hmm. I think it is an exploit when you can use all the warlord xp on a single unit, and then get all that xp free on every successive unit of that type.

 

[davidlallen]

I'm not sure about the second great general, maybe that should be prevented in any case. But the first great general is the actual person who gets cloned; why should his experience be stripped?

 

[Ahriman]

If I understand it correctly, the axolotl tanks mean that every new unit you build of a particular type will get all the promotions of the highest level unit you have of that type.

So the human player (not the AI) can use a great general in a tile with only one military unit, and instantly give that unit 20 free experience points, and ~4 free promotions + maybe 2 from levels.
[The AI will never separate out a single unit to use a great general on it.]

Now, every new unit of that type you build will start with 6 free promotions, + 2 more from levels.
Thats the equivalent of every new unit being level 9 - or getting ~+40 free XPs. It gets even worse if you use a second great great general on one of the newly created units; from then on, new units will get ~+60 free XP.

I don't mind great-general-only-promotions being cloned, but I do mind being able to get massively high level units (in unlimited supply) as it is both too powerful and something that the AI can't achieve.

I would much prefer that the Tanks let you have a single Immortal unit per tank than to allow unlimited clone-armies of super-soldiers. The former is very out of character.

 

[davidlallen]

I do mind being able to get massively high level units (in unlimited supply) as it is both too powerful and something that the AI can't achieve ... I would much prefer that the Tanks let you have a single Immortal unit per tank than to allow unlimited clone-armies of super-soldiers.

Of course anybody is welcome to contribute an implementation of the tanks you suggest. In the current implementation, the units are not free, and therefore are not in unlimited supply. The hammer cost of the unit is normal. Also, one minor factor to remember is that each copy is likely to lose one promotion or one level from the original.

In the discussions we have had about this specific topic over the last *one year*, the sticking point is whether the tanks are somehow limited to one copy of the original, or any number of copies can be made. In the Frank Herbert novels, there is no evidence one way or another. We never see multiples, but no statement is made that multiples are impossible. In the non-Frank Herbert novels, there is at least one scene with multiples; a Tleilaxu bad guy tests a nerve gas by killing a roomful of "leftover" Duncan Idaho's.

 

[Ahriman]

In the current implementation, the units are not free,

But the massive numbers of promotions on them are free.
Axolotl tanks should not allow you to build soldiers that are 50% better than those of other factions, at the same cost, with no hardcap.

We never see multiples, but no statement is made that multiples are impossible.

I thought we came to to the conclusion that single-copy-at-a-time felt much more flavorful to me. Tleilaxu conquering the universe with wave after wave of Clone Troopers feels very wrong to me.