Veterans/Armistice Day

[Linkman226]

Armistice Day isn't about celebrating veterans, it's about remembrance of those who died in war, whether they died for something they believed in or something they didn't; the first is honorable, the second is tragic, but both equally deserving of our remembrance.

1. It's not honorable to die for an evil cause, no matter how much you believe you're doing the right thing.

2. This isn't ever remembered. It's an excuse for a bunch of phony people to get up and pretend to feel sorry and warmonger the rest of the time.

You'll notice a lot of people pronouncing "lest we forget;" did you stop to think about why, and what that really means? It's an acknowledgement that war is a horrible, horrible thing. A whole generation of young men was lost in that great catastrophe, and we would do good to remember the steep cost of war, even from our comfortable lives at home, far away from it. Is it regrettable that many of those people were sent or led to the battlefield by a system that profited their masters? Absolutely. Does that make their sacrifice unimportant, or meaningless? I don't think it does, I don't think it affects it at all.

There is no real sarifice, because that would imply they died for something worthwhile.

And before you jump in and throw silly accusations like nationalism and jingoism towards me, remember that I am a communist.

Fully aware

Today isn't a day about war, it's a day about veterans, both living and dead, and you shouldn't cloud it will all this ideological nonsense regarding those wars. If you don't think it's deserving of observation, then don't observe it. It's that simple.

So if there's a Hitler Remembrance day I shouldn't complain about it?

 

[warpus]

I remember Hitler all the time. I'm on the goddamn internet.

 

[MjM]

What service ?

I won't even bother..

 

[aronnax]

What candles may be held to speed them all?
Not in the hands of boys but in their eyes
Shall shine the holy glimmers of goodbyes.
The pallor of girls' brows shall be their pall;
Their flowers the tenderness of patient minds,
And each slow dusk a drawing-down of blinds.

-Wilfred Owen

Sleep well dear soldiers, be it in the fields of France or in the beds of your homes. You did not fight for nothing.

 

[Linkman226]

What candles may be held to speed them all?
Not in the hands of boys but in their eyes
Shall shine the holy glimmers of goodbyes.
The pallor of girls' brows shall be their pall;
Their flowers the tenderness of patient minds,
And each slow dusk a drawing-down of blinds.

-Wilfred Owen

Sleep well dear soldiers, be it in the fields of France or in the beds of your homes. You did not fight for nothing.

This is the most beffudling thread I have ever read on these forums. What, pray tell, did they fight for?

 

[aronnax]

This is the most beffudling thread I have ever read on these forums. What, pray tell, did they fight for?

Which soldiers?

Linkman, I'm not going to bother to debate with you the merits or symbolism of Armstice Day and remembering the fallen. If you can't clear cut see why this day is important than I see no point in trying to explain it to you.

Now, I respect whatever you think of this day. You'll being able to do so is one of the reasons why we have memorial day. However, I have no interest in having a long lengthy argument over the purpose of the soldiers who fought and died or were injured in war.

 

[Sveon]

Now I a strung up fool and I agree with annorax, whatever.

 

[Linkman226]

Which soldiers?

Well, any of them. Take your pick.

Linkman, I'm not going to bother to debate with you the merits or symbolism of Armstice Day and remembering the fallen. If you can't clear cut see why this day is important than I see no point in trying to explain it to you.

Now, I respect whatever you think of this day. You'll being able to do so is one of the reasons why we have memorial day. However, I have no interest in having a long lengthy argument over the purpose of the soldiers who fought and died or were injured in war.

Fine. I will depart an inquisitive soul just as confused as when he entered, if you have no light to shed on this very confusing topic. And if you thought otherwise, I am genuinely

 

[MobBoss]

I thought 20 years was the max you can serve, unless you're a general or something. What branch/job are you in? What are some changes you've seen since you first enlisted/commissioned?

Nah, 20 years is just the minimum to serve to qualify for a retirement. Senior NCOs cap out at just around 30 years. Your base retirement is 50% of your base pay at 20 years, and goes up 2.5% for each year served after that. At just over 24 years, I am now up to a 60% of base pay for retirement that I start getting as soon as I retire.

Changes? Far too many to really delve into with any real detail. Needless to say, i've seen the modernation of the militarys computer networks, and all that entails. When I first got in we used tape drives and those big floppy disks to transfer data. I've also seen a lot of equipment get fielded over the years; not to mention a lot of bases get closed due to BRAC. Lots and lots of uniform changes.

 

[holy king]

Yes, that's obviously why people are saying thanks, you cracked it.

i see nothing wrong with remembering those british soldiers who were needlessly slaughtered in world war 1, but i think a "sorry" makes about 5 billion times more sense than a "thanks".

 

[Smellincoffee]

Nah, 20 years is just the minimum to serve to qualify for a retirement. Senior NCOs cap out at just around 30 years. Your base retirement is 50% of your base pay at 20 years, and goes up 2.5% for each year served after that. At just over 24 years, I am now up to a 60% of base pay for retirement that I start getting as soon as I retire.

Changes? Far too many to really delve into with any real detail. Needless to say, i've seen the modernation of the militarys computer networks, and all that entails. When I first got in we used tape drives and those big floppy disks to transfer data. I've also seen a lot of equipment get fielded over the years; not to mention a lot of bases get closed due to BRAC. Lots and lots of uniform changes.

Do they still move you around a lot, or have you been able to put down roots somewhere as a result of taking on more responsibilities?

 

[civver_764]

The only emotions I feel towards veterans is immense sympathy, especially the poor souls slaughtered in the bondage of their governments. And I think anyone who tries to employ nationalism on days like these are wholly inappropriate douchemongers.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

1. It's not honorable to die for an evil cause, no matter how much you believe you're doing the right thing.

It is certainly honorable to die for something you believe in. And it is also tragic to be sent to die for something you don't believe in enough to die for. Armistice Day remembers both.

2. This isn't ever remembered. It's an excuse for a bunch of phony people to get up and pretend to feel sorry and warmonger the rest of the time.

Really is it? Because I am no warmonger. I can't think of anyone (well, one person) who is a "warmonger" who observes this day. To the people I know who do observe it and still support things like, for example, our interventions in the Middle East, such things are regrettable but necessary, in their opinion. I disagree obviously, but it doesn't make their belief in that cause any less real. This isn't Victorian Britain, you know, where the average bloke sits around twirling their mustaches at the thought of Britain conquering further regions of Africa, people do actually really believe that our interventions are necessary, and thus regret that our boys were summoned to do it.

There is a tendency among objectionist people like communists to assume that all oppression, manipulation, and exploitation are fully and consciously planned and understood by all performing parties...they aren't. The nature of their actions is unchanged by this ignorance, but the nature of their hearts isn't. Make no mistake, people all the way to the top have swallowed the myth of necessary interventionism. Certainly there are some malicious folk who are fully aware of just what is going on, but to project their vision across the masses of people who buy what they're selling is a dreadful encroachment on your part.

There is no real sarifice, because that would imply they died for something worthwhile.

That is not something for you to decide.

So if there's a Hitler Remembrance day I shouldn't complain about it?

If you think Adolf Hitler and my grandfather are the same, then I have nothing more to say to you.

 

[Flying Pig]

Can I point out that nobody has ever fought a war because they love their country and hate the enemy? I do love my country, I think the Queen's fantastic, and democracy's a wonderful thing - but I can't say that any of that is worth young men's lives to defend. Who has ever gotten up and charged bayonet-fixed at the enemy for the Westminster System? Look to your left, and look to your right - those are the two best reasons to stay firm when it really matters. We fight, kill and die for our mates beside us.

i see nothing wrong with remembering those british soldiers who were needlessly slaughtered in world war 1, but i think a "sorry" makes about 5 billion times more sense than a "thanks".

How about 'thank you to all those people who have died that I may enjoy the freedom that I enjoy today, rest in peace all those who have had to die because of war, and here's to never repeating the same mistakes again'?

On the subject of a 'sorry' - I wouldn't say apologise, because I'd do the same again in the same situation! We can however feel sorry for them, but it's important to remember that just because both sides are 'victims' of war that doesn't make the people on either side morally culpable for killing them.

1. It's not honorable to die for an evil cause, no matter how much you believe you're doing the right thing.

Yes it is! There can be no other foundation of morality than 'do what you sincerely believe to be the right thing, even when it becomes difficult to do so'.

What candles may be held to speed them all?
Not in the hands of boys but in their eyes
Shall shine the holy glimmers of goodbyes.
The pallor of girls' brows shall be their pall;
Their flowers the tenderness of patient minds,
And each slow dusk a drawing-down of blinds.

-Wilfred Owen

That's a great poem from a great poet: I can still recite Dulce et Decorum Est from memory. I think Housman's epitaph is the best:

Here dead we lie, because we did not choose
To live, and shame the land from which we sprung.

Life, to be sure, is nothing much to lose
But young men think it is
And we were young

 

[holy king]

How about 'thank you to all those people who have died that I may enjoy the freedom that I enjoy today, rest in peace all those who have had to die because of war, and here's to never repeating the same mistakes again'?

i dont think the monarchy would have held up much longer had we won...

 

[Flying Pig]

i dont think the monarchy would have held up much longer had we won...

Ah, yes, nationally you are in the awkward situation of having never successfully defended your freedom by force of arms... what about 'who died in the name of the freedoms we enjoy today?'

 

[Linkman226]

It is certainly honorable to die for something you believe in. And it is also tragic to be sent to die for something you don't believe in enough to die for. Armistice Day remembers both.

So a serial killer who goes to the electric chair sincerely believing he was acting for good is somehow moral?

Really is it? Because I am no warmonger. I can't think of anyone (well, one person) who is a "warmonger" who observes this day.

Every single friggin politician ever.

To the people I know who do observe it and still support things like, for example, our interventions in the Middle East, such things are regrettable but necessary, in their opinion. I disagree obviously, but it doesn't make their belief in that cause any less real. This isn't Victorian Britain, you know, where the average bloke sits around twirling their mustaches at the thought of Britain conquering further regions of Africa, people do actually really believe that our interventions are necessary, and thus regret that our boys were summoned to do it.

Where there are delusions there are deluders, usually the very "oppressive parties" you claim don't exist next:

There is a tendency among objectionist people like communists to assume that all oppression, manipulation, and exploitation are fully and consciously planned and understood by all performing parties...they aren't. The nature of their actions is unchanged by this ignorance, but the nature of their hearts isn't. Make no mistake, people all the way to the top have swallowed the myth of necessary interventionism. Certainly there are some malicious folk who are fully aware of just what is going on, but to project their vision across the masses of people who buy what they're selling is a dreadful encroachment on your part.

Your own admission redded.

And that's all that matters. That this is a holiday of delusion.

That is not something for you to decide.

Statements like this are utterly meaningless. I have voiced an opinion. Accept it, refute it, or just drop the argument altogether.

If you think Adolf Hitler and my grandfather are the same, then I have nothing more to say to you.

I said no such thing. My point is that my options on a holiday of remembrance aren't binary: either remember or move on. I can choose to protest as well.

Can I point out that nobody has ever fought a war because they love their country and hate the enemy?

REALLY NOW. REALLY.

I do love my country, I think the Queen's fantastic, and democracy's a wonderful thing - but I can't say that any of that is worth young men's lives to defend. Who has ever gotten up and charged bayonet-fixed at the enemy for the Westminster System? Look to your left, and look to your right - those are the two best reasons to stay firm when it really matters. We fight, kill and die for our mates beside us.

And for the tuggers of the puppet strings who benefit from this in the first place. Every soldier should be ashamed of their profession. As much pity as I feel for you, I also feel that you have a moral obligation to lay down your arms and refuse to fight. All war is murder. All war.

How about 'thank you to all those people who have died that I may enjoy the freedom that I enjoy today

Like who, pray tell?

rest in peace all those who have had to die because of war,

I applaud this motion. Too bad it does no good.

and here's to never repeating the same mistakes again'?

Sure. Except it will never happen until this cult-worship of soldiers, along with all military recruitment, ceases. Joining the military prolongs and exacerbates the problem you claim to be concerned about.

On the subject of a 'sorry' - I wouldn't say apologise, because I'd do the same again in the same situation! We can however feel sorry for them,

Aw shucks, why didn't you mention it before. Never mind that it does absolutely no good, but I'll sit here in a corner feeling all sorry for a dead soldier.

but it's important to remember that just because both sides are 'victims' of war that doesn't make the people on either side morally culpable for killing them.

Someone must pull the puppet strings, see above. Moreover your compliance with a system is just as bad as actively enforcing a system. I believe the Nuremberg trials established that.

Yes it is! There can be no other foundation of morality than 'do what you sincerely believe to be the right thing, even when it becomes difficult to do so'.

Above.

 

[Flying Pig]

Firstly, to the strongest extent permitted by the rules of this forum, I'd like to say that Linkman over here is an incredibly disagreeable character, and potentially to be blamed for the unlawful taking of a great deal of gas neccessary for combustion.

Moreover your compliance with a system is just as bad as actively enforcing a system. I believe the Nuremberg trials established that.

I don't see how you can say that one code of morals is 'superior' to any other. Even with religion - a fundamentalist Christian would say that a Christian approached by a Muslim missionary is evil to accept his ideas and convert, but a Muslim approached by a Christian missionary is evil if he doesn't accept his ideas and convert. To me, this sort of situation - which comes with any sort of moral absolutism - is ridiculous. If you sincerely believe you're doing right, you're doing the morally right thing, however much that may differ from the practically 'right' thing to do.

Sure. Except it will never happen until this cult-worship of soldiers, along with all military recruitment, ceases.

Good lord you're young! Until Afghanistan and Iraq came around we were not popular people, anywhere! Kipling said it best:

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I quite literally had that exchange off-duty in Ulster in the seventies, in civilian attire - we were in a supposedly 'safe' are, not even dressed in stereotypical squaddie civvies (which were stonewashed jeans, tight maroon t-shirts, desert boots and an outdoor fleece if cold) - but our shaving, haircuts and bearing gave us away instantly.

Joining the military prolongs and exacerbates the problem you claim to be concerned about.

I've always said that the ideal world would be one without wars, but since that is not going to come about in my own lifetime I don't feel bad about fighting for my country to ensure that we get the less-worse option of being good at fighting and winning when we do so. In the absence of world peace the only thing we can do is try and avoid as many of the ill effects of war as we can - by not being on the losing side!

 

[Uncle Anton]

Enlisted Royal Australian Armoured Corps, 2001 - Current. Probably get out next year sometime.

M113 Armoured Vehicle Crewman and Light Cavalry Scout.

As for stories? Got heaps. Ones I can tell? Fewer...

Here's one though.... back in '04 (or '05 I can't remember) we're supporting an EX with a particular SF unit that'll remain nameless... basically we're taxi-ing them about for a week or so. We're in a MOUT facility they use for training.... mostly pre-fab buildings and also some old asbestos-filled plasterboard houses from the 1950's which used to be married quarters (obviously disused now, so moved into the facility to form part of an urban area)..... anyway oe day during the EX, I'm playing Vehicle Operator (Kinda a spotter/spare bloke) in the back of my 'car' (One of many nicknames we used to use for an APC).... old mate's driving, with our Crew Commander ('Crewie') up in the turret. We've got six very intimidating types in the back that we've just picked up. We're locked down, all hatches closed.

We've been told to scream down the road as fast as we can, get them to a building that represents a gas station and basically dump them right at the front door. With gusto, old mate up front in the drivers' hole kicks the car into a "jockey left" (reverse to the left so to put the vehicle facing right) at our Crewie's urging.... just as the intercomm (IC) in the car gives out.

Now, a bit of background.... the M113s we had at the time had comms gear which included radios but also an internal intercomm. During tricky moves, especially when locked down, it was pretty critical for the Driver and the Crewie to have good communications because the Crewie in the turret could often see things the Driver couldn't. Usual practice when the Driver can't see sh!t calls for the Crewie to give commands over the IC, because otherwise you can't hear... it's just too damned noisy. Upon receiving a command a Driver is to keep doing whatever the Crewie said to do until the Crewie over the IC either says "Ok" (the signal to stop doing that) or a fresh command.

Anyway the so IC cuts out... The last thing old mate up front has heard is "Jockey Left", so that's what he's doing! By the time he realises he should've stopped after the first 10 seconds of reversing, he's almost come full circle - has destroyed a shed and half a house - and I'm in the back with a sheepish look on my face as six ordinarily very hard looking blokes are in tears, cackling like old women at a bridge game with a deck of pornographic playing cards.

I still reckon we got off lightly... The SSM (the Squadron Sergeant Major) was making some rather scary sounding dialogue until I asked what the procedure was in relation to filling out an L&D form for a condemned and valueless building. Still ended up putting money over the bar though....

 

[Uncle Anton]

So a serial killer who goes to the electric chair sincerely believing he was acting for good is somehow moral?

LOLWUT

This stuff is gold man. Usually I'd bite, but this is just so demonstrably ridiculous, I'm just going to take the mickey.

And that's all that matters. That this is a holiday of delusion.

And God Bless You, you're singlehandedly going to convince everybody through the power of the INTERNET!!!

I have voiced an opinion. Accept it, refute it, or just drop the argument altogether.

I LOL'd.

Refute? Well I would, but refuting an opinion is a bit of a misnomer, not to mention bad use of English. You can't objectively disprove a subjective value statement. Oh, I'm not arguing anything. To take time to objectively argue the point would be to acknowledge intellectual authority where there is none.

I can choose to protest as well.

One dissenting voice, in a thread, on a forum, on the internet. I hope your movement is able to make a larger impact than the sum of your efforts thus far. No, No... No need to thank me for strategic advice.... like sarcasm it's just one of the many services I provide.

REALLY NOW. REALLY.

Ya Rly.

Every soldier should be ashamed of their profession.

Nope.

As much pity as I feel for you, I also feel that you have a moral obligation to lay down your arms and refuse to fight.

Eh... Not gunna. Whaddya do? Really? Let's just say I decide to abandon my own moral set and decide to join one of the less scrupulous military contractor firms out there.... y'know, tread all over someone's livelihood, or mess with their sovereignty and stuff.... How are you going to stop me? Or anyone else for that matter?

All war is murder. All war.

Really? I thought eating meat was murder? I must be confused. Excuse me while I go and commit a heinous act of military barbarism and then celebrate by barbequeing a gorgeous and cute lamb to be eaten right after my entree of delicious Shark Fin soup.

Sure. Except it will never happen until this cult-worship of soldiers, along with all military recruitment, ceases.

Cult-Worship? Of the military? Really? Maybe in your country... where I am there's definitely no blind love of the military. Please, by all means tell me if there is... I've had plenty of different types of sex before, but Groupie Sex isn't one of those types, and I reckon it'd be LEGEN... Wait for it... DARY!!!

Aw shucks, why didn't you mention it before. Never mind that it does absolutely no good, but I'll sit here in a corner feeling all sorry for a dead soldier.

I don't see why you should. There are any number of soldiers from any number of countries that'd snuff out your life without a second thought, so they clearly don't care about you either. Heck, I don't care about you either.... I'd oppress you for a pop-tart and a reach-around.

I believe the Nuremberg trials established that.

So, was Nuremburg legit or a sham? You crazy goofy fun loving kidders tend to alternate between using it as a legitimate precendental benchmark or an example of imperialist whitewashing to be scorned as much as possible... I forget... which diametrically opposed purpose are we citing it for today??

Also, Boobs.