[NFP] Vietnam Discussion Thread

[Lord Lakely]

Which is, to be honest, a relatively minor bonus.

It's outright weak. Like what, up to 3 extra science for one district, but only if you've filled it with every building? Provided you find a jungle you wish to place it on. Johnny Curtains is laughing in your face with his prefab +6 Campuses.

There has to be more to it.

 

[almughavar]

It's outright weak. Like what, up to 3 extra science for one district, but only if you've filled it with every building? Provided you find a jungle you wish to place it on. Johnny Curtains is laughing in your face with his prefab +6 Campuses.

There has to be more to it.

There are also the bonus yields from terrain features which are not removed when building the districts on tiles possessing them.

 

[8housesofelixir]

There are also the bonus yields from terrain features which are not removed when building the districts on tiles possessing them.

Huh, didn't see anything like that in the city detail panel:

Spoiler :

However, when checking the video again, I do noticed that there isn't any yield loss on the lower right UI when that Holy Site was placed down on the Forest. Either they keep the feature yield but are not showing up in the city UI, or they city wasn't working that tile when the HS was up.

Still, missing adjacencies will be a problem for Vietnam, and by the look of things, those extra yields are too small to be served as compensation.

 

[Guandao]

You mean Empress Y Lan?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ỷ_Lan
Ly Chieu Hoang was a 9 year old girl who was forced to abdicate her throne to her 10 year old husband, thus ending the Ly Dynasty. She is notable cuz she is the only female empress of Vietnam, otherwise she is irrelevant to the course of history.

My bad. Y Lan is definitely a better choice for leader than Ly Chieu Hoang.

What sort of Agenda do you think Lady Trieu will have? Hates Civs that invades others?

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

I found this. Maybe this was their inspiration?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citadel_of_the_Hồ_Dynasty

Funnily you brought this up, this citadel is literally a huge irony. Since 958 when Ngô Quyền established full independence from China, the dynasty (Ho) that built the most famous vietnamese fortress was the most short-lived one and the only one that got crushed by the Chinese to lead to another Chinese dominion lol

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Funnily you brought this up, this citadel is literally a huge irony. Since 958 when Ngô Quyền established full independence from China, the dynasty (Ho) that built the most famous vietnamese fortress was the most short-lived one and the only one that got crushed by the Chinese to lead to another Chinese dominion lol

Maybe using Google/Wikipedia in Vietnamese would be better finding something more similar if it exists?

 

[bbbt]

However, when checking the video again, I do noticed that there isn't any yield loss on the lower right UI when that Holy Site was placed down on the Forest. Either they keep the feature yield but are not showing up in the city UI, or they city wasn't working that tile when the HS was up.

Still, missing adjacencies will be a problem for Vietnam, and by the look of things, those extra yields are too small to be served as compensation.

You don't usually work district tiles though, and an unimproved marsh/forest/floodplain isn't a tile you want to work past the start of the game.

If it's automatically worked and added to the district yield, that would be pretty strong - but as you said, it's not reflected in UI.

Or maybe it's 'worked' by the specialists? I.e. put a campus on a marsh, the library gets +1 production, but you can work the specialist for +3 food (the marsh) and +2 science?

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

Maybe using Google/Wikipedia in Vietnamese would be better finding something more similar if it exists?

To be honest, when I think of Vietnamese defensive ability, I can confidently say that most Viet people think of attrition, not walls. Something like hostile units constantly lose HP inside Vietnamese territory and cannot defend and heal up is more appropriate.
(I'm gonna tell a story, quite long, hope that mods can overlook this one)
When I traveled to Mongolia with my father on a diplomacy trip, we visited a Genghis/Kublai Khan museum, a Mongol gent told us (humorously) "We didn't lose in VN because you outfought us, we lost to the weather".
The way Tran Nhan Tong fought the Mongols on the 2nd and 3rd invasion was to evacuate the entirety of Thang Long, including civilians, let the Mongols take the capital easily while retreating to surrounding jungle areas. Then from here, they employ guerrilla tactics (yes, the Vietcong legacy started here boys) to cut off the supply trains. The summer heat was one thing but the extreme humidity in Vietnam was so suffocating that the hungry, thirsty Mongols started to breed all sorts of tropical diseases within themselves, especially poxes. So after the Vietnamese was done partying in the jungle on Mongolian food, they just came back and had a final "battle" as a formality with the half-dead Mongolian armies, the "battle" was more like taking candies from a wheelchair kid, with a baseball bat.
Most people know about the Russian winter, the Japanese hurricanes, even the "spikes on Bach Dang river" strat is more famous than this one, but the Vietnamese had used it for thousands of years all the way up to the Vietnam war and they still ran the same strat. It is like watching a one-trick pony gamer, kinda boring but effective. I guess dying from poxes is less poetic than a blizzard or a hurricane.
TLDR: Viet are not known for building walls and fortresses, in fact they left it open when the enemies came. The only dynasty that built famous fortresses got crushed by invaders. Representing Viet's defensive capability through walls and not attrition is boring in gameplay and not even that great when it comes to historical representation.

What sort of Agenda do you think Lady Trieu will have? Hates Civs that invades others?

This is a completely wild guess that is based on nothing. She probably likes a lot of Great Generals. Like I said, she is remembered for her spirit, not her achievements, cuz she achieved next to nothing. She led 1 rebellion (literally had 1 job) and then instantly lost. I used to brush the idea of having her as a leader aside cuz I thought Trung Trac was already quite irrelevant in terms of historical importance.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

To be honest, when I think of Vietnamese defensive ability, I can confidently say that most Viet people think of attrition, not walls. Something like hostile units constantly lose HP inside Vietnamese territory and cannot defend and heal up is more appropriate.
(I'm gonna tell a story, quite long, hope that mods can overlook this one)
When I traveled to Mongolia with my father on a diplomacy trip, we visited a Genghis/Kublai Khan museum, a Mongol gent told us (humorously) "We didn't lose in VN because you outfought us, we lost to the weather".
The way Tran Nhan Tong fought the Mongols on the 2nd and 3rd invasion was to evacuate the entirety of Thang Long, including civilians, let the Mongols take the capital easily while retreating to surrounding jungle areas. Then from here, they employ guerrilla tactics (yes, the Vietcong legacy started here boys) to cut off the supply trains. The summer heat is one thing but the extreme humidity in Vietnam is so suffocating that the hungry, thirsty Mongols started to breed all sorts of tropical diseases within themselves, especially poxes. So after the Vietnamese was done partying in the jungle on Mongolian food, they just came back and had a final "battle" as a formality with the half-dead Mongolian armies, the "battle" was more like taking candies from a wheelchair kid, with a baseball bat.
Most people know about the Russian winter, the Japanese hurricanes, even the spikes on Bach Dang river is more famous than this strategy, but the Vietnamese had used it for thousands of years all the way up to the Vietnam war and they still ran the same strat. I guess dying from poxes is less poetic than a blizzard or a hurricane.
TLDR: Viet are not known for building walls and fortresses, in fact they left it open when the enemies came. The only dynasty that built famous fortresses got crushed by invaders. Representing Viet's defensive capability through walls is boring in gameplay and not even that great when it comes to historical representation.

It's clear that they are going for a defense oriented Vietnam with the walled encampment and presumed crossbowmen replacement maybe being able to fire more than once per turn.
But I agree that the implementation might be a little off but I'll wait and make my final judgements once we know it's full abilities. Hostile units losing HP inside Vietnamese territory and not being able to heal might be implemented in her leader ability.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Something like hostile units constantly lose HP inside Vietnamese territory and cannot defend and heal up is more appropriate.

I think this is something that can be implemented for Vietnam, or things like defensive bonus when units are standing on the terrain features.

My positive guess is that the Unique Encampment is mainly for the "defensive" theme - since all the military affairs in this game is tied to Encampment - instead of inventing "physical" defensive abilities out of thin air. (Or probably the "culture" theme, which didn't show up in the video anyway.)

A similar case will be Zulu's Ikanda, that unique encampment mainly exists for spamming Corps and Amries in order to fit Zulu's theme, instead of being a fort.

Still, an unique encampment instead of other uniques seems missing out the cultural and religious traditions of Vietnam to me.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

I think this is something that can be implemented for Vietnam, or things like defensive bonus when units are standing on the terrain features.

My positive guess is that the Unique Encampment is mainly for the "defensive" theme - since all the military affairs in this game is tied to Encampment - instead of inventing "physical" defensive abilities out of thin air. (Or probably the "culture" theme, which didn't show up in the video anyway.)

A similar case will be Zulu's Ikanda, that unique encampment mainly exists for spamming Corps and Amries in order to fit Zulu's theme, instead of being a fort.

Still, an unique encampment instead of other uniques seems missing out the cultural and religious traditions of Vietnam to me.

I remember suggesting the Guerrilla Infantry as the UU for VN (a fancier name for "Vietcong" I guess) that they can activate invisibility that cannot be detected, attacking out of invisibility deals extra damage, and if they take damage or are recently invisible, they cannot enter invisibility again, which is something to make use of Vietnamese expertise of terrain warfare. Now it is a bit weird to see the Vietcong as the UU of Trieu isn't it? The name of Thang Long is a bit anachronistic but I don't imagine they stretch it THAT far lol

 

[8housesofelixir]

Now it is a bit weird to see the Vietcong as the UU of Trieu isn't it?

Well, Fredrick Barbarossa's Germany has U-Boat as UU.

Although, considering the fact that the Vietnamese UU looks like a Crossbow replacement, the chance of it being "Vietcong" should be very low.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Well, Fredrick Barbarossa's Germany has U-Boat as UU.

Although, considering the fact that the Vietnamese UU looks like a Crossbow replacement, the chance of it being "Vietcong" should be very low.

I mean... They haven't reached Tanks yet, so I highly doubt they'd be able to build a Vietcong Unit at that time.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I think this is something that can be implemented for Vietnam, or things like defensive bonus when units are standing on the terrain features.

My positive guess is that the Unique Encampment is mainly for the "defensive" theme - since all the military affairs in this game is tied to Encampment - instead of inventing "physical" defensive abilities out of thin air. (Or probably the "culture" theme, which didn't show up in the video anyway.)

A similar case will be Zulu's Ikanda, that unique encampment mainly exists for spamming Corps and Amries in order to fit Zulu's theme, instead of being a fort.

Still, an unique encampment instead of other uniques seems missing out the cultural and religious traditions of Vietnam to me.

Is it crazy to think that the unique encampment could be a unique district for Lady Trieu and a Water Puppet Theater is the civ unique improvement?

It probably is.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

I mean... They haven't reached Tanks yet, so I highly doubt they'd be able to build a Vietcong Unit at that time.

Well, Fredrick Barbarossa's Germany has U-Boat as UU.

Although, considering the fact that the Vietnamese UU looks like a Crossbow replacement, the chance of it being "Vietcong" should be very low.

There is a frame showing they can build Infantry, so I would rule out a possibility for Vietcong.
Btw, I recognized the tune in the video, it is from this song. You can find the versions with lyrics on youtube as well.

 

[Birch617]

Is it crazy to think that the unique encampment could be a unique district for Lady Trieu and a Water Puppet Theater is the civ unique improvement?

It probably is.

I really hope you are right

 

[8housesofelixir]

View attachment 582208

So it will be Vietnam for this Thursday, Kublai next Tuesday, and the update itself next Thursday.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I really hope you are right

Considering the video did say they are terrain and cultured based, we are missing the cultured part. Unless the unique encampment grants culture of some kind or it's part of Lady Trieu's ability.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

The Voi Chien does make more sense than the No Than for why the build cost is higher.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

I thought about what @DogeEnricoDandolo said about guerilla tactics of Vietnameses being part of their cultural heritage and that a unique encampment is kind of counter-intuitive to this ability, but let's think outside the box (something FXS tended to do more with NFP).

WHAT IF ! You have to build all your specialty districts on passable features EXCEPT for the encampment that must be built on open terrain, and the encampment district + every building in it allows your units garrisoned on a district on a feature to gain additional bonuses to defense? To represent the fact that the encampment is in itself kind of weak (a trap they lure Mongolians in) while the rest of the army is staying steady in their marshes/jungles/forest in optimal defense position, making their encampments weaks but that make stronger other districts?
Could lead to interesting military tactis and make Vietnameses a truly difficult country to invade (which has been the case until... well, the French, but tbh, French aren't real people, they eat frogs and snails, so a humid and hot climate is not that bad).