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Deity
Seems good to me too
Vokarya's Workshop: Buildings
- Thread starter Vokarya
- Start date
Talking about Early Buildings:
No doubt Afforess thinks it unbalances the game, the list is huge, some buildings here do have incredible effects, not to mention some are not so early like Treadmill Crane, Construction Firm, Marina, Gambling Hall and Tax Office and some don't get obsolete like Apiary, River Authority, Town Watch (only defensive bonus), Construction Firm, Marina and Tax Office (although Gambling Hall doesn't obsolete, it is replaced by the Casino, which isn't an Early Building).
Of course the difference between a game with Early Buildings and one without Early Buildings is big. I don't think Early Buildings should disappear, but rather be incorporated into the game. I don't think they balance slower games, but rather unbalance them. With all that stuff going on about balancing issues with the Trade Routes possibly getting rid entirely, Early Buildings could be redone too. IMO there shouldn't be this option, but rather incorporate all early buildings into the game and balance them if needed.
- Weaver
- Potter
- Boatyard
- Apiary
- Stoneworker
- Sculptor
- FirePit
- EB Gate House
- EB City Gate
- Beadmaker
- River Authority
- Candlemaker
- Fishtraps
- Townwatch
- Treadmill Crane
- Construction Firm
- Furrier
- Elder Council
- Wheelwright
- Tailor Shop
- Marina
- Gambling Hall
- Tax Office
No doubt Afforess thinks it unbalances the game, the list is huge, some buildings here do have incredible effects, not to mention some are not so early like Treadmill Crane, Construction Firm, Marina, Gambling Hall and Tax Office and some don't get obsolete like Apiary, River Authority, Town Watch (only defensive bonus), Construction Firm, Marina and Tax Office (although Gambling Hall doesn't obsolete, it is replaced by the Casino, which isn't an Early Building).
Of course the difference between a game with Early Buildings and one without Early Buildings is big. I don't think Early Buildings should disappear, but rather be incorporated into the game. I don't think they balance slower games, but rather unbalance them. With all that stuff going on about balancing issues with the Trade Routes possibly getting rid entirely, Early Buildings could be redone too. IMO there shouldn't be this option, but rather incorporate all early buildings into the game and balance them if needed.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Early Buildings are Not as unbalanced as Afforess has claimed. Especially in the light of his statement that he doesn't use the option. Now if Aff uses them on a regular of even semi-regular basis and would state Why he thinks they are Unbalanced I would be in more agreement here.
But as they stand I don't feel they are a game impediment but an early game enhancement and are not Unbalancing to the early game.
Incorporating the option into the game as a core function is not a problem with me. But asking for a reduction and rebalancing for Marathon game speed is.
JosEPh
100% agreed
Afforess
The White Wizard
Wheelright, Apairy are the two that stick out in my mind. They produce massive
and 
, respectively. They don't obsolete for a long time. They are pretty overpowered.I think they could be merged into the core game. One idea might be to make certain buildings depend on a gamespeed instead of a gameoption. Like they could only be built on GAMESPEED_EPIC or slower.
Wheelright, Apairy are the two that stick out in my mind. They produce massive
I think they could be merged into the core game. One idea might be to make certain buildings depend on a gamespeed instead of a gameoption. Like they could only be built on GAMESPEED_EPIC or slower.
Apiary doesn't obsolete, and I agree with the massive
of wheelwright, but massive of Apiary? It gives +1, do you think it's massive?And the weaver? up to +5
And the boatyard/marina? +1 free specialist per fishing boats (and whaling with Marina)
Not that those things should be removed, but it's obvious the gap between a game with and without the option
Afforess
The White Wizard
Apiary doesn't obsolete, and I agree with the massive
For how early the building is, +1
is a lot.For how early the building is, +1
I agree it's substantial, but massive? 1/3 of a pop food consumed, and soon after comes the Butchery (minimum +2
), so it's also interesting to pair both buildings to supply another pop
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
For how early the building is, +1
Is this based on your position that early game all cities should be small pop (under size 5) for all of the ancient and early classical eras so that the game will still be undecided by Ren Era?
Apiary is what save most of my games from stalling out early. Slow growth is much better than stagnation.
Wheelwright takes 2 more improvements/other buildings to reach it's full potential. And again keeps the early game from stalling out for lack of
. I don't find running research at 30% or below to keep my empire from going on Strike a plus. Even with the New Tech Diffusion being on. @Spirictum,
Nor do I see the
from WW as "Massive" in any way at all. Was that perhaps a bit of gloss, over exaggeration to make a point?Over the past several years I've found that the Early Buildings option is vital to an interesting game from the get go. And it actually benefits the AI. So far as making them Core that I have no objection or concern over. And would welcome them as part of the main mod. But I am only 1 opinion.
JosEPh
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
I agree.
Appiary +1
is not too much.I always build Butchery first, and Appiary is always the last on my list of the
boost buildings, because its low bonus compared to its cost.
Afforess
The White Wizard
I agree it's substantial, but massive? 1/3 of a pop food consumed, and soon after comes the Butchery (minimum +2
Butchery has resource requirements, which may or may not be met. Apiary is always available.
I also find Early Buildings a great addition to avoid stagnation in the early game.
Personally I wouldn't modify them, and I don't see the need to make them obligatory either: that's always been the point of AND, to have options to suit as many gamestyles/preferences as possible, right?
Tinkering with the outputs of some of the EB might be needed, but I see it sensible after it has been decided what to do with trade routes.
Personally I wouldn't modify them, and I don't see the need to make them obligatory either: that's always been the point of AND, to have options to suit as many gamestyles/preferences as possible, right?
Tinkering with the
outputs of some of the EB might be needed, but I see it sensible after it has been decided what to do with trade routes.Is this based on your position that early game all cities should be small pop (under size 5) for all of the ancient and early classical eras so that the game will still be undecided by Ren Era?
Apiary is what save most of my games from stalling out early. Slow growth is much better than stagnation.
Wheelwright takes 2 more improvements/other buildings to reach it's full potential. And again keeps the early game from stalling out for lack of
@Spirictum,
Nor do I see the
Over the past several years I've found that the Early Buildings option is vital to an interesting game from the get go. And it actually benefits the AI. So far as making them Core that I have no objection or concern over. And would welcome them as part of the main mod. But I am only 1 opinion.
JosEPh
Note: By massive I don't mean out of place, but rather big compared to other similar stuff.
Let's take a deep look at Wheelwright (WW is that right? if not forget everything I'm about to say):
+1
with each of Trade and Chariotry+1 Trade Route
50% Faster Training of Chariot and Caravan
Well, the 50% is good but not something that brings any issue.
These two techs are grabbed just after you're able to make wheelwrights. Taking Animal Husbandry is one of the paths to Trade, and together with The Wheel is needed for Chariotry. The wheel opens wheelwright so you may get those +2
pretty soon after you're able to make wheelwrights. And Wheelwrights are obsoleted only with Machinery, an almost medieval tech (1.5 eras later then wheelwright).+1 Trade Route will yield in minimum something between 1 and 2
. Having foreign Trade it's impossible to yield less then 2.So Wheelwright:
Starts giving 0
(imagining you can't have a single Trade Route)May already start or in no time will give 1
(it'll be a fraction between both)Just after making one it may get +2
by techs going to 3With good positioning or diplomacy it'll give 2-3
for TR, totalizing 4-5Not taking wonders into the equation, but taking normal buildings and features until Machinery (harbor, big cities especially capital with monarchy), it may give on average:
- 3-4
if no foreign TRs and no overseas cities- 4-5
if bad foreign TRs and/or overseas cities- 5-6
if good foreign TRsComparing these values to all other things that give
it seems the best option up to its obsolescence:- Cottages start giving 1
and after City Planning (roughly half way to Machinery) it may start giving 2. 3 if on river;- Apiary gives 2
;- Weaver's Hut starts giving 2
(because you need the resource, and it gives +1) and may get to 5, but it needs 1 resource of each of the different types to get +1 so it's a lot harder and will probably be obsolete before you may get all resources, as it obsoletes with Machinery too;- Potter's Hut may give 1, 2 or 3
, but to give 2 or 3 it gives 1
, anyways its resources are a lot harder to have then Weaver's, and Potter's Hut gets obsolete with Glass Blowing (beginning of Classical Era);- River Port/Harbor give only 1
and +20%/25% of TR income. Not only weaker then WW, but also helps WW TR bonus;Classical Era onwards
- Tailor Shop replaces Weaver, but may give a weaker bonus then the Weaver in some circumstances;
- Villa Civic Building gives 5
but brings -3 and needs Patrician or Bourgeois;- Lighthouse and River Port may start giving a bonus better then WW by now, because they need a population big enough for the bonus to kick in. By now you may get 5+
with those buildings, and more commonly with both combined;- The Port is definetly better then WW, but we are almost in the end of WW. It gives 2
+1 TR, +25% TR yield, +25% foreign TR yield and may give up to +3 if you have each of the 3 resources needed;- Paved Roads gives +1 TR and + 25% TR yield but gives +10% maintenance too;
- Shanty Town gives +3
with production too, but with a penalty to food, defense and health, and needs vassalage civic;- Ice Storhouse gives +5
, comes at the same time of Machinery and may only be built if you have an ingloo and consequently is near the pole and to a tundra/ice tile;- And Bakery may give 0, 3, 6 or 9
but it comes exactly when Wheelwright gets obsolete.So taking a look at all those bonuses and the time of their appearance, WW is the strongest, there is no doubt on that, but I have to agree that massive (as something bad for the game) isn't appropriate for it. It's big, but not exactly massive. I exaggerated.
Well, indeed butchery needs a resource, but it's one of four of the most common resources. Food resources are a lot more common then Luxury Resources, and this one uses any of Cow, Pig, Sheep or Deer to give
. If you happen to have Fur you get it giving 1, if you have only one of any of the ones mentioned before, you get 2. If you have also at least one of each of the others mentioned before, you get +1 for each. These seem to me the most common resources to find (not all at once because of mapscripts, but at least one of them, with the exception of Fur). And both buildings come together. Massive for Apiary is an exaggeration IMO, but it's indeed strong.
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
Apiary could obsolete somewhere in the Medieval possibly, or be introduced slightly later (Late Ancient / Early Classic) if that would help ease the powerfulness of it a bit?
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
I don't think Apiary should ever obsolate.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
+1 Totally.
With one thing caveat that has bugged me over the years, and that is being able to have a beehive in Ice and Tundra cities.
There is a way to limit it's range to exclude tundra, permafrost and ice terrain.
JosEPh
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
Make it require a grassland plot? That makes sense.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Actually there settings for lattitude that should be easy to add. For example Apiary would restricted to +/- 80* lattitude. This should preclude most of the terrain I mentioned.
Adding grassland plots would be overly restrictive as bees just don't live on grassland.
JosEPh
Adding grassland plots would be overly restrictive as bees just don't live on grassland.
JosEPh
