Vokarya's Workshop: Units

[os79]

Heavy Swordsmen and Macemen don't upgrade until you get to Musketmen. Only Longbow and Crossbow upgrade to Arquebus and then Dragoon from there. So Heavy Swords and Maces can't upgrade to Dragoon, but will eventually be able to upgrade to Mounted Rifleman. I think the upgrade tree is complex enough right now, so I don't want to add any new general upgrades.

Ok. I don't mind because Flintlock tech is in next tech column. Good job with Dragoons idea for Arquebusiers though.
That's thing about Rise of Manlind and its mods, complexity .

 

[aggri1]

Hi,

I've just finished my first ever RoM game which went past the modern era. Some thoughts in relation to units...

I found the plethora of land Unit Types very confusing. For instance, a Walker Mech is not an Assault Mech but a High-Tech unit (whatever that nebulous term is supposed to mean). Meanwhile, a Power Armoured Infantry is in the Assault Mech class.

The Scout Mech, while in Assault Mech class, looks like an assault or siege droid: I don't understand the difference between Mechs and Droids (Robot Units) either. Could these be merged?

Is there a reason that the futuristic tanks need their own category (Dreadnought units)? Why can't they remain in Tracked Units? I thought a dreadnought was a name for an old battleship...

Anyway, I'd really like to see these Unit Types simplified.

I also think that the late era units in general have too many very specific bonuses. E.g. the EMP SAM has a huge list of arbitrary-seeming bonuses: why a bonus against siege? Why a Hills defence bonus? Why is it invisible (I thought that this was being removed anyway?) Why immune to first strikes? Why 30% withdraw chance? Or, why can Special Infantry intercept aircraft? Why have they a special bonus against Gunpowder? The Modern Armour and Hybrid Tanks have particularly enormous lists of bonuses: why all the specific different bonuses against each earlier tank unit?

I don't think that all of these bonuses are really needed, and that would simplify things greatly, while still allowing for 'counter' type situations.

Also, what does "+25% City Strength" mean? All units in city are 25% stronger? The city itself is stronger? But what "strength" do cities have?

OK, so as is no doubt quite clear, I'm in favour of simplification.

Cheers,
A.

 

[Vokarya]

Future units are definitely something I plan to work on at some point. I agree the units are not clear and have way too many tiny situational bonuses. City Strength means the unit has both a bonus to attack cities and defend in cities.

 

[Rezca]

As far as I know, all the +% Attack vs clearly obsolete unit types are - or used to be - AND's way of preventing this:

The Civilization III phenomenon where Ancient Era units garrisoned in a city could easily kill a full health Tank and not break a sweat, seemingly at random.

With the 120 Str and +100% vs whatever, that would remove any possibility of a Fusion ship attacking a steam or wooden ship and by some twisted piece of fate, having the wooden ship sail away happily while the fusion ship explodes into pieces.

I don't really think it's needed and would greatly tidy up things by having them removed (And besides, with Tech Diffusion would you really be seeing Galleons vs Fusion Transports anymore? )

 

[Spirictum]

By the mechanic of tech diffusion I agree with you on this. I can't see this happening too

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

(And besides, with Tech Diffusion would you really be seeing Galleons vs Fusion Transports anymore? )

Before the latest revision, yes, it definetely happened.

 

[Rezca]

Before the latest revision, yes, it definetely happened.

I rarely experienced such extreme gaps in tech, usually it was just a single era at most.
I do clearly recall one game though where Native America had started on an island off in the middle of the ocean - not large enough to be a 'real' continent, but larger than a small island. No one seemed to want to trade with him when people did finally find him, and he was still using Galleys and Triremes as his "cutting edge tech" when Caravels came across his primitive little island. When the "Big Three" civs on the main supercontinent were getting into guided weapons and stuff, he was just getting Galleons. Really, only two civilizations had open borders with him, and I was the only one giving him technologies. Everyone hated him it seemed

I haven't seen a gap that massive since then though. Especially not with the new Tech Diffusion

 

[Spirictum]

Of course in Blitz anything is possible, it's just too fast.

OTOH, I'm kind of disappointed with my game in the aspect of new world civs having techs I don't have, and most old world civs can't even go over the ocean yet.

We are in Renaissance, 1470 AD, I'm discovering Astronomy, only 2 other civs have, and new world civs are almost equal to us in techs (some of them). I think Tech Diffusion to new world civs should only start to kick off after we can have trade routes with their cities.

And this is all before new tech diffusion, so I can't even imagine what would've happened

 

[Noyyau]

In the BUG options there are a few options about barb civs in the new world, about the tech they spawn with and so on.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Of course in Blitz anything is possible, it's just too fast.

OTOH, I'm kind of disappointed with my game in the aspect of new world civs having techs I don't have, and most old world civs can't even go over the ocean yet.

We are in Renaissance, 1470 AD, I'm discovering Astronomy, only 2 other civs have, and new world civs are almost equal to us in techs (some of them). I think Tech Diffusion to new world civs should only start to kick off after we can have trade routes with their cities.

And this is all before new tech diffusion, so I can't even imagine what would've happened

This is directly related to Type of Map used. If you are using an Earth Type map with Old World /New World landmasses the Map would need to be adjusted.

Otherwise Tech Diffusion (whether old or new version) is/are working for Other map types as designed.

So Tech Diffusion is not the perceived problem here at all, but rather Earth type Map parameters that you have been using. And more specifically Maps that have the Old World/ New World set up options.

JosEPh

 

[Afforess]

Of course in Blitz anything is possible, it's just too fast.

OTOH, I'm kind of disappointed with my game in the aspect of new world civs having techs I don't have, and most old world civs can't even go over the ocean yet.

We are in Renaissance, 1470 AD, I'm discovering Astronomy, only 2 other civs have, and new world civs are almost equal to us in techs (some of them). I think Tech Diffusion to new world civs should only start to kick off after we can have trade routes with their cities.

And this is all before new tech diffusion, so I can't even imagine what would've happened

Just turn it off?

I mean if you are playing a map type that directly conflicts with the concept of tech diffusion you shouldn't have the option on.

 

[Spirictum]

Yeah, Joseph is right, the problem is actually in the type of map indeed.

@Afforess: The conflict is Tech Diffusion mechanic not having an option to deal with this, because to be honest, the concept of Tech Diffusion can't be incompatible with any game, it's a lot more realistic then without it in any circumstances.

But I'll keep this discussion on Tech Diffusion thread not here, as we are flooding vokarya's units with this OOT stuff

 

[Spirictum]

Coming back here with a new idea I had, I would like to discuss with you guys what do you think.

As it seems hard to change the Tech Diffusion mechanic for this problem on Old/New World option games, I thought maybe the Caravel could be postponed a bit, as to prevent so early contact with New Worlders.

Taking a look at the Tech Tree, I thought maybe we could make the Caravel need both Optics and Cartography. It would postpone the Caravel a bit, maybe enough to prevent a so early contact and thus disbaling early tech diffusion between Old and New Worlds.

What do you guys think?

 

[<Nexus>]

I remember it was mentioned earlier, that you want to change the models of the final fighter and bomber. I was looking around in other mods, and I found these in PlanetFall:

Bomber

Fighter


I think they would be cool

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I used them both for another project I had some years ago but I couldn't find them anymore. I think they're cool if Vokarya wants to add them to replace orbital fighter and bomber. Although I would switch your fighter and bomber assignment.

 

[Noyyau]

Good looking units!
I'd also switch them, the "Penetrator" for Fighter role and the "Thunderbolt" for Bomber.

 

[Noyyau]

Coming back here with a new idea I had, I would like to discuss with you guys what do you think.

As it seems hard to change the Tech Diffusion mechanic for this problem on Old/New World option games, I thought maybe the Caravel could be postponed a bit, as to prevent so early contact with New Worlders.

Taking a look at the Tech Tree, I thought maybe we could make the Caravel need both Optics and Cartography. It would postpone the Caravel a bit, maybe enough to prevent a so early contact and thus disbaling early tech diffusion between Old and New Worlds.

What do you guys think?

I don't think postponing the Caravel would have any meaningful effect. It would postpone contact, yes, but civs that are behind probably are such due to terrain and landmass size, so if we wait even longer, the gap between the backwards and the advanced civ would be even larger.

 

[Spirictum]

I don't think postponing the Caravel would have any meaningful effect. It would postpone contact, yes, but civs that are behind probably are such due to terrain and landmass size, so if we wait even longer, the gap between the backwards and the advanced civ would be even larger.

But that's the idea between New Worlders and Old Worlders, that the gap is ridiculously big until you may actually settle there (like what happened IRL). The spanish took this advantage and obliterated the Aztecs and Incas, but ask if any colony on North America was brave enough to face the Iroquois? In the times of the Aztecs and Incas none of them rided horses or used firearms, but try to disconnect the north american natives with horse riding and firearm usage. They got the techs because they weren't obliterated, and it was a lot faster then europeans (this is why tech diffusion is so great and realistic).

I'm using my game as a comparison, so in my game nobody had landed on the new world until a few turns ago, and still nobody can have oceanic trade routes, but the natives already know techs I don't (and I'm the 3rd in tech development). Postponing the caravel will not only make the tech diffusion appear later for the new worlders, but also will give less time for old worlders to trade techs with the new world. It's like the aztecs saw the Spanish landing on Cuba, and then when they finally tried to reach Mexico the Aztecs already had firearms to shoot bullets on the spanish. This is what'll happen in my game as soon as many old worlders become able to conquer the new world settlements.


But actually I think it would be a lot better if we could change the tech diffusion mechanic, but Afforess stated it's really hard or undoable at all, so this is why I brought this idea here


EDIT: Another solution could be making the Caravel unable to cross the ocean until Cartography (it can be interpreted as it is able to cross the ocean, but if you don't have map making skills you're doomed, so safe ocean traveling is only allowed after Cartography).

 

[<Nexus>]

Good looking units!
I'd also switch them, the "Penetrator" for Fighter role and the "Thunderbolt" for Bomber.

For some reason I feel the "sting" to be a fighter and the "hammerhead" to be a bomber, but that's the least thing.
I did a little more looking around in other mods, and found these models in "Mars, Now!"

This could be also an option for a replacement. Altough I don't think it as good as the 2 before.


And another one, though it looks a bit funny for me



And about the final scout unit: I like the rover much more then the hovercar, but it doesn't feel too futuristic for. So here are 2 alternatives if we are interested in changing it:

The same/similiar rover model but more futiristic look:


And a hovering unit:

Personally this is my favourite

 

[Noyyau]

Space Marines!!

They'd make an awesome scout