Vox Populi Congress Proposal Workshop

[Stalker0]

Why should this line of unit be special in particular?

Because that's what they were made to be. Whenever you create a brand new unit class.....it needs to have a purpose, something you don't already have in the game. When the recon line was made, we already had:

1) Cheap "cannon fodder" units (spears/pikes)
2) Elite melee units (swords/longswords)
3) Ranged Units (archers/c bows)
4) Fast Melee Units (horseman/knights)
5) Fast Ranged Units (skirmisher/heavy skirmisher): This was also made by VP but its earlier than the recon line (I think, might be wrong and this came later).

Now if your going to add a new role to the game, it needs to be something that these roles don't already do. Because if they did....why wouldn't I just use the current units? So when we added recon, it was principally around scouting. We then over time added the "special forces" type niches to it, things like having amphibious attack or putting the paradrop units under this role. These were areas the main roles didn't either do well, or did but required strategic resources (its been argued that a horseman or skirmisher can do the scout's job equal or better than a recon unit can, but those come later and require strategics....so that was the "niche protection" for recon).

I will also note that when we added in the skirmisher role (might be hard to remember for those who have played VP a long time, but none of the skirmisher units existed before, that was completely a VP invention) .... it took a long, long, LONG time for it to really find its niche. At first they were so weak no one used them, then so strong you used nothing but them. Then we had the terrain-based ability that worked but was jenky and confusing to people. We now have a model for them that is a truly unique niche as a true "combat augment unit"....but even now there are people unsatisfied with them. That's the problem with new lines.....everything in the game is fighting for these limited niches....and the more roles you have...the more that fighting happens. That is why the later roles have to justify their own existence by bringing something to the table that other roles don't do.

 

[pineappledan]

If you want cheaper fodder units than the melee line then you need a militia/conscript line. That’s not what scouts/recon are. That just fails basic definitions.

 

[myclan]

1) Cheap "cannon fodder" units (spears/pikes)
2) Elite melee units (swords/longswords)
3) Ranged Units (archers/c bows)
4) Fast Melee Units (horseman/knights)
5) Fast Ranged Units (skirmisher/heavy skirmisher): This was also made by VP but its earlier than the recon line (I think, might be wrong and this came later).

I agree these 5 kinds of units(plus siege units) are sufficient for a land fight. So recon is not for fighting, but help other units to fight. Besides just explore the map, they can help by healing others and revealing the battlefield. That's why I always suggest make Medic promotion only available to Recon, which will make them very valuable.

 

[Tekamthi]

If you want cheaper fodder units than the melee line then you need a militia/conscript line. That’s not what scouts/recon are. That just fails basic definitions.

PD has the correct design philosophy in mind here in my opinion. Recon shouldn't just be other/lesser melee -- we already have distinct promo branches to create ~distinct subtypes of melee units. Would rather see more promos to distinguish melee line subroles further if that's what's needed.

Given recon units take the same production cost as their other respective units, it can be hard to justify their cost in production, and gold cost can be brutal too when they cost the same as the rest. Instead, we give them full XP after purchasing. We retain the purchase cooldown though, they're not exactly Mercenaries

The suggestion of purchasing recon with full XP is not offensive to me, but not something I'm particularly excited about. I guess it could eventually be something we look back at as one of many similarly small changes that make this line truly feel special to play with, but on its own it's just not much of a fix for what ails recon. I'd probably vote for it if it were formally proposed, but more out of a desire to see the community trialing new recon-related ideas.

That said, the thoughts expressed here about recon absolutely touch on an important, unfinished aspect of these units -- their role as defined currently (pre-paratrooper) is unsatisfactory. I think I capture almost everyone's opinion when I say we think of early recon as "good enough" rather than "good" in its current form. I strongly believe that it could be made appropriately distinct just with tweaks to existing database functionality, happy to see the discussion alive once more.

 

[msw1]

I like the idea of recon units getting promotions that make them better "support" units. There isn't really a true support unit in VP, besides the great general which can't be built. You just throw Medic I or II on a few random units, be they knights, archers, or pikemen and call it a day. If Medic was limited to recon units that would make them more valuable and also make some sense (recon units are able to quickly get supplies and bring them to the other units...etc). Perhaps there could be other promotions that helped adjacent units too.

 

[Stalker0]

There isn't really a true support unit in VP, besides the great general which can't be built.

If you mean a unit that does nothing but provide bonuses, then I think the only contender is the Assyrian UU.

That said, the skirmisher class is principally a combat support unit, it has little damage itself but can greatly magnify the combat attacks of several of units around it when used properly.

 

[Tekamthi]

I like the idea of recon units getting promotions that make them better "support" units.

There may be some potential here, but we have to be both creative and balanced in our thinking about these things. There are a limited number of adjacency-based support functions available, and many if not all are performed by other units.

One aspect we have yet to explore all that much in discussion is the possibility of applying debuffs via recon (think of the way melee naval can give a "boarding" malus, for example -- commonly referred to in promo database as a "plague"). In modding, I've explored (and rejected, more on that below) the concept of applying a location-based defense malus to a unit that engages against recon. Thematically, imagine a recon unit engages with another unit, and in-so-doing, scouts out the other unit's precise locations, facilitating stronger attacks on those positions. This is different from the skirmisher adjaceny bonus in that it only affects units that actually engaged the recon unit.

In practice, some things did not work as expected: in particular, the LostOnMove flag in promotions table only seems to work if unit is moving out of an improvement or city, and not just for any move anywhere -- in my rejected design, it was important that the unit with the recon-applied malus shouldn't have that malus anymore once it moved somewhere else ie it needs to drop off the unit as soon as it moves, in turn encouraging the unit to withdraw temporarily from an entrenched position, fallback from blockade etc. Another thing I didn't like with my test implementation, though which I knew going into it: the malus promos apply on any melee combat, doesn't matter if the relevant unit is attacking or defending -- for this recon "scouting" malus, it only really makes sense if its applied when the recon attacks another.

However, if there were an appetite from devs to adjust dll so that LostOnMove feature work anywhere, not just in special plots, and the plague promotion mechanism could be divvied up so there are "attack plagues" and "defensive plagues", not just "melee combat plagues", something like this may fit nicely on our recon; its both thematic and potentially adds depth to gameplay, without really changing any function of our "good enough" recon directly.

Anyway that's the only debuff-style "support" function I've tried, but I suspect there may be others that DO work well with existing database function -- in recent patch notes there was mention that dll was modified to support multiple debuff-style promotions at once, which was a limitation previously for VP not having too many of these malus plague promotions. I'd be interested to hear community's thoughts on if & how these malus/debuff promotions might fit with an improved recon role.

 

[pineappledan]

Scouts are for vision. Scouting was necessary for early armies. If you want to make scouts important then make vision more important. reduce the vision of all other pre-renaissance land units by 1 and suddenly scouts have a niche.

If you aren’t prepared to cut things then you aren’t serious about making a niche for scouts. You’d rather transform them into something unrecognizable, overloading land combat with more tools and abilities doesn’t give scouts a niche, it’s just adds complexity for no gain.

 

[Tekamthi]

Interesting thought... Might give AI a bit of a headache as they cannot really make inferences about unit locations without direct vision. Pretty easy-to-implement suggestion though, could be worth a try.... Indirectly, also increases value of horse units, whose high mobility allows them to scout ahead when recon are not present.

 

[pineappledan]

It wouldn’t be any less of a headache than piling more extraneous mechanics onto the existing ones. We already have the siege unitcombat with 1 radius limited vision, extending that to the other combat roles opens up a tactical roll for units that can act as spotters.

 

[msw1]

I was thinking of the recon support buffs being something that applied to the later-game special forces type units, rather than the early scouts and Pathfinders. But I think the point could be fairly made that these units already have too many extraneous promotions. Reducing the vision of other units could give recon units a support rule in a way that makes a lot intuitive sense.

 

[myclan]

Recon are quite good at providing vision now, more better if the +1 sight promotion can come a little earlier. I just wonder no one care about healing? Aren't recon the best unit type to act as medic?

The problem of recon lies in:
Early game, we want them move faster, survive better among Barbarian, to collect Tribal villages and reveal city-state for tribute.
Late game, we want them for vision, for medic, so other units can fight better.
The two current lines of promotion are both excellent for early game. But we want different promotion in late game like sight or medic, which costs too much XP for having to pick up others first.
So, change the promotion tree a bit, we can make a big difference.

 

[ma_kuh]

Recon don't get enough XP to reliably pick up Medic if you're just trying to supplement an army, especially earlier in the game. You basically get the one good scout that reveals your continent, maybe a second one if you want to spend the production or gold on it, and then you have 15xp recon for a long time that can't really do anything but provide the same amount of vision as everyone else. If you go Sailing for scouts they get a +1 innate sight bonus. And once you start revealing the ocean... those recon units aren't near your army to provide the Medic boost in the first place.

I think significant changes to recon also involve significant changes to their XP acquisition and the scouting mini-game in general. And because that's such a big problem with no clear consensus in the community, my vote at this point is that the "good enough" state they are in is good enough. There's just too many thoughts on what the "better" solution is, and they all go in different directions.

 

[Tekamthi]

I think significant changes to recon also involve significant changes to their XP acquisition and the scouting mini-game in general. And because that's such a big problem with no clear consensus in the community, my vote at this point is that the "good enough" state they are in is good enough. There's just too many thoughts on what the "better" solution is, and they all go in different directions.

I tend to agree -- and its particularly unlikely we'll find a proposal that passes congress vote on the basis of theorycrafted ideas alone. That said, I am interested in evaluating well-reasoned ideas connected to these units for modmod implementation even if nothing else; in that regard this discussion format is rather useful, and I'd encourage sharing of recon-related ideas, even if the dominant viewpoint is staunchly status quo.

Once upon a time VP had a highly abuseable "shoot-n-scoot" naval meta, and consensus was this was "good enough" for a loooong time -- but its only a memory now thanks largely to those of us that brought it up over and over and over...

 

[Drakul]

Greetings lads. I have an mod idea proposal. Dunno if this is the right place to post it. But what came to my mind is that military city states that follow your religion give you acces to the unique unit that they provide. You can buy it with faith on a 3 turn cool down.You need to have the tech researched. It can be like provided with religion belief,social policy opener/finisher to boost Piety branch or default that MS get this ability. It would be cool and add some sense of realism.

 

[Enginseer]

	Current	Proposed	Rationale
Tradition's Justice	+1 Production in every City. Cities with a Garrison add +25% to the City's Ranged Strength. Royal Guardhouse (+3 Production, +2 Defense, +50 HP, +20% Military Supply from Population, 1 Engineer Slot) Prerequisite for Ceremony.	+1 Production and +10% Defense in every City. -20% Yield Penalties from Puppeted Cities. Royal Guardhouse (+3 Production, +2 Defense, +20% Military Supply from Population, 1 Engineer Slot) Prerequisite for Splendor and Majesty.	Every City should be easier to defend and not be reliant on. The +50 HP in Capital is removed for +10% Defense in every City. Now there is some incentive to keep cities when you capture one. Puppet them!
Tradition's Sovereignty	Culture cost of tiles reduced by 20% (exponentially) in all Cities. Court Chapel (+3 Faith, 1 Great Work of Art or Artifact slot, 1 Artist Slot) Prerequisite for Ceremony.	Culture cost of tiles reduced by 20% (exponentially) in all Cities. Court Chapel (+3 Faith, 1 Great Work of Art or Artifact slot, 1 Artist Slot) Prerequisite for Majesty.	No change except it unlocks Majesty instead of Ceremony.
Tradition's Ceremony	+1 Happiness from National Wonders with a Building Requirement. +25% Production toward National Wonders with a Building Requirement. Court Astrologer (+3 Science, +1 Science to all Councils, Herbalists, and Lodges, 1 Scientist Slot). Prerequisite for Splendor and Majesty. Requires Justice and Sovereignty.	+1 Happiness from National Wonders with a Building Requirement. +25% Production toward National Wonders with a Building Requirement. Court Astrologer (+2 Science, +1 Science to all Councils, Herbalists, and Lodges, 1 Scientist Slot). Prerequisite for Splendor. No policy requirement.	One of Tradition's strengths is giving you a lead in Faith or Production in the Capital. You can now also opt to choose to get a lead in Science as well. However, the Court Astrologer gets a slight yield reduction. There are of course, Civilization interaction that comes with unlocking Ceremony early which are intended (notably but not limited to Maya and Babylon)
Tradition's Splendor	Requires Ceremony. Expending a Great Person grants 50 Culture, scaling with Era. State Treasury (+4 Gold, +2 Culture to all Monuments, Gardens, and Baths; 1 Merchant Slot). Requires Ceremony.	Expending a Great Person grants 50 Culture, scaling with Era. State Treasury (+4 Gold, +2 Culture to all Monuments, Gardens, and Baths; 1 Merchant Slot). Requires Ceremony and Justice.	You can unlock Splendor earlier now. This means you can potentially get way more Culture earlier through expansion. Just take Justice+Ceremony and then get Splendor and start building those Monuments, now that's efficiency just in time for your first Engineer/Scientist to appear! if you're finding yourself able to go wide earlier but stuck in tradition, rush left!
Tradition's Majesty	Specialists in Capital consume half the normal amount of Food. Palace Garden (+5 Food, +25% Great Person Rate, -2 Unhappiness from Urbanization, 1 Great Work of Writing Slot, 1 Writer slot). Requires Ceremony.	Specialists in Capital consume half the normal amount of Food. Palace Garden (+5 Food, +25% Great Person Rate, -2 Unhappiness from Urbanization, 1 Great Work of Writing Slot, 1 Writer slot). Requires Justice and Sovereignty.	You can unlock Majesty earlier now. This means you can potentially get way more Culture earlier. Just take Justice+Sovereignty and then get Majesty to work as an Artist and Writer specialist, now that's efficiency just in time for Writer's Guilds to be unlocked too! if you're finding yourself not able to go wide but sticking to tradition, rush right!
Imperialism's Martial Law	Garrisons cost no Gold maintenance, +1 Happiness, and +4 Culture. -20% Yield Penalties from Puppeted Cities.	Garrisons cost no Gold maintenance, add +25% to the City's Ranged Strength, +1 Happiness, and +4 Culture.	Martial Law doubles down on the Garrison effect.

But visually show me!

Spoiler :

 

[msw1]

Recon don't get enough XP to reliably pick up Medic if you're just trying to supplement an army, especially earlier in the game. You basically get the one good scout that reveals your continent, maybe a second one if you want to spend the production or gold on it, and then you have 15xp recon for a long time that can't really do anything but provide the same amount of vision as everyone else. If you go Sailing for scouts they get a +1 innate sight bonus. And once you start revealing the ocean... those recon units aren't near your army to provide the Medic boost in the first place.

I think significant changes to recon also involve significant changes to their XP acquisition and the scouting mini-game in general. And because that's such a big problem with no clear consensus in the community, my vote at this point is that the "good enough" state they are in is good enough. There's just too many thoughts on what the "better" solution is, and they all go in different directions.

It could be as simple as combining the medic and survivalism promotions for scouts. Add +5 HP healing to adjacent units to Survivalism I and II, and remove the medic promotions from the scout promotion line. Now you can choose your recon units to be for scouting (Trailblazer) or support (Survivalism) right out of the gate.

 

[hokath]

But visually show me!

No school like old school!
It's a clever solution to some of the perceived weaknesses without impacting the long-term bonuses of the tree.
With one exception: the puppet yields. I think they should stay on Imperialism, that's a major draw of that tree for me, and makes choosing between the last three interesting.
You could consider adding +1 to another yield like Tourism or GAP if you think Justice is too weak.

 

[Enginseer]

No school like old school!
It's a clever solution to some of the perceived weaknesses without impacting the long-term bonuses of the tree.
With one exception: the puppet yields. I think they should stay on Imperialism, that's a major draw of that tree for me, and makes choosing between the last three interesting.
You could consider adding +1 to another yield like Tourism or GAP if you think Justice is too weak.

azum4roll and I were brainstorming for a Unit Supply system that keeps Flat Supply and Supply from Population penalty the same.

Justice would get Dominance's 10% Supply from Population in all Cities while Dominance would get an immediate +5 Flat Supply in the Capital if we weren't moving the puppet yields that is.

 

[azum4roll]

Justice would get Dominance's 10% Supply from Population in all Cities while Dominance would get an immediate +5 Flat Supply in the Capital if we weren't moving the puppet yields that is.

And that's already modmoddable if you wish.