VQ05 - The Conquistadors

[ChrTh]

Ok, just looking at the info above (haven't looked at the save yet) ...

I'm thinking that I should take Susa and Persepolis and then make peace. The reason I'd like to take Susa is because it's essentially a first-ring city (maybe 1.5-ring). The reason I want Persepolis is because with the variant goal in mind, the more coastal cities we have the better off we are. I don't know if I'll prosecute the war to Cyrus' elimination, I'll have to look at it more.

I don't think we're going to be ready for war with Qin for awhile, I'll see if I can find some way to make him more friendly with us.

 

[bobrath]

We popped a Great Scientist in Toledo (mainly due to the Caste System 3 scientists there). So no, we did not get a Great Prophet.

Susa is currently defended by a long bow and a pike. So it will be an easy pickup when you decide to pick it off. However, remember that once we take it, all of the Persian culture will vanish and QSH's much more impressive culture will swamp it. We will lose the iron and most of the southern tiles. Cyrus keeping it actually benefits us (imo) because it keeps QSH at bay.

If you're really itching to take a second city then consider raizing Tarsus and moving it one tile east to put it on the coast. It is also lightly defended and would be under no cultural pressure.

Perseoplis should be an easy take in the next 2-3 turns. Only really waiting on the cats to get there to bombard the defense down to make it reasonable. I don't know that Cyrus has any techs we can extort and I suspect his treasury isn't all that full.

Oh one other point I almost forgot - Seville is starving because Cyrus pillaged our crab nets so a work boat would be nice there.

@GreyFox - yes it might have been the right decision to go to war with Cyrus, its just unfortunate that he was our best choice and the timing was so poor. He pops into a GA and spams out longbows as we bring our sword horde. I was actually more concerned about our backside defense then the war against Cyrus. He never had the power to really harm us bad (thank the stars I spotted the southern suprise force), but with only warriors and archers at home... You can't bet on QSH not starting to lick his lips as our only real force was thrown against the arrows on the opposite side of our nation.

 

[seezachswim]

Some explanations for some moves on my part. Caste system, I personally hardly ever whip, the only cases were I whip is if the city is in dire danger or if it has absoleutely no production. I did make a bit of weed though with the descision to hire scientists in Toledo, It was about 20 points away from popping one and I thought it would be ok to hurry our great prophet along. The odds must have not been more than 10 to 15 percent for a great scientist. We just got really unlucky. I'll remeber to definetly not do that again if the situation arises.

On the war situation though, I donsn't look like were in that bad of a position. We pretty much had to expand somehow, and cyrus was the most natural target.

 

[GreyFox]

Yes, make Qin happy. Sounds like a good plan.

Razing Tarus is a good idea. I had always wanted to have a city there for the incenses (IIRC).

Don't be too harsh on the defense thingy, bob, its hard to ensure an adequate attacking force and a decent defense at the same time. Which is why SG is a good thing, different players bring in different perspectives and we learn from each other. I don't want to scare our swimming athelete zach off ... We may have to rely on his swimming skills to reach the New World ...

 

[bobrath]

Its all love for swimmers here. I swam competitvly for far too many years (up through college), so I know the pain that is swimming.

 

[ChrTh]

Susa is currently defended by a long bow and a pike. So it will be an easy pickup when you decide to pick it off. However, remember that once we take it, all of the Persian culture will vanish and QSH's much more impressive culture will swamp it. We will lose the iron and most of the southern tiles. Cyrus keeping it actually benefits us (imo) because it keeps QSH at bay.

Looking at the culture map (and please correct me if I'm wrong), but it looks like Susa is dealing more with Caesar's culture than Qin's. And while Susa would lose some its tiles at the start, Susa itself isn't threatened (as Cordoba is) so it should be able to gain back the tiles pretty quickly (whip a theatre, maybe?).

 

[Maquis]

If we're getting to the end of the war, I'd be all for revolting back to caste system. I have found that hiring a couple artists for the first turns out of revolt is the best way to get those border back out, then you can worry about building the theatre.

 

[bobrath]

Looking at the culture map (and please correct me if I'm wrong), but it looks like Susa is dealing more with Caesar's culture than Qin's. And while Susa would lose some its tiles at the start, Susa itself isn't threatened (as Cordoba is) so it should be able to gain back the tiles pretty quickly (whip a theatre, maybe?).

You might be right. Its too bad JC and QSH have the same rough color! I just tend to discount culture maps forecasts because Susa has the years of culture built up to get where it is, but a newly captured city with 0 culture is just on its own. Yes switching to Caste System and pumping some Artists will help along with a whipped theater (part of the reason I did research drama along the way to guilds). I'd just like to make sure we don't look at the current persian cultural border around Susa and say "that will be ours when we take it". Maybe in 20-30 turns, but out of the shoot no way.

 

[seezachswim]

Its all love for swimmers here. I swam competitvly for far too many years (up through college), so I know the pain that is swimming.

Wow, I didn't think there were any other swimmers on this forum. What college did you swim for?

 

[bobrath]

Rice University

 

[ChrTh]

Just took a break in Turn 7, but I'm back and finishing up and I should have an update within the hour.

To whet your appetites, here are a couple of things that happened in my turn:
I moved all the troops outside Persepolis without having taken it
Qin declares war

 

[ChrTh]

Situation Assessment:

It is a time of war. Cyrus is down to 5 cities, 3 of which I hope to take or raze before making peace. Doing so will remove him from this part of the continent.

We're pretty mediocre, hanging around in the middle of the demographics pretty much everywhere.

Civics I will probably revolt to Bureaucracy and Caste System after I've taken care of Cyrus as mentioned above.

Turn 0 -- 1100 AD
I can trade Dyes to Qin for 5gpt. I find this a good idea to keep him happy. Also gets us to +2gpt.

Everything else looks good so I hit ENTER. Let's see what Cyrus does during the interturn ...

IBT:

The sword attacks Cordoba and loses pretty bad. The axe and archer split off.

Turn 1 -- 1110 AD

Pasargadae: Barracks > War Elephant (I guess Ivory is back online)

Doh! A jungle has grown near Madrid!

I send a Longbow out from Cordoba to kill the Archer. Hitting the Axe is too much of a risk. I do send the Longbow out of Madrid towards the Axe to guard one of the ivories and to hit the Axe next turn.

As the horse archer is no longer necessary in the South, I send it back towards Tarsus.

IBT:

Persia offers peace. Not yet.

Turn 2 -- 1120 AD

Axe pillaged the camp. Our Madrid Longbowman takes him out. Threat ended, sign deleted.

I just noticed something about the assault on Persepolis: if we move 1 tile E, we shouldn't have to cross a river to attack ... this may be but I move the stack that way (I can rationalize it by saying they'll be closer to Tarsus)

IBT:

Oh no! Our camp-building worker near Seville got stolen by a Catapult!

Turn 3 -- 1130 AD

Seville: Workboat > Longbow
Pasargadae has to switch to a Catapult

Our sword loses to the Catapult! An archer is forced to avenge us.

I was right! Moving E eliminated the 'crossing river' penalty!

Assault on Persepolis:
Bombard down to 3%. 1 suicide cat is sent in. Sword loses to Longbow. Sword loses to Longbow Make offering to RNG God. Sword defeats Longbow. Sword defeats Longbow. Sword defeats Longbow. Sword defeats Longbow. Persepolis is down to a Spear.

Turn 4 -- 1140 AD

Barcelona: Longbow > Mace

Well, we don't have to worry about Cyrus getting any more troops through Qin's border! Qin declares war on Cyrus!

I also don't think we have to worry about taking Susa anymore, although I'll still try.

Mop up Persepolis: Sword defeats Spear, we get 3 workers. Susa's the new capital.

I'm tempted to upgrade to a Maceman, but it'd kill our treasury, so I don't do it.

IBT:

Nada

Turn 5 -- 1150 AD

Madrid: Mace > Mace
Toledo: Longbow > Settler (to replace Tarsus)

I send Madrid's Mace down towards Susa, even if just to watch Qin take it.


Turn 6 -- 1160 AD



Whip the Settler in Toledo (to solve the unhappiness problem)

Turn 7 -- 1170 AD

Cordoba: Mace > Theatre. I send this Mace also towards Susa.
Toledo: Settler > Catapult

Whip the Catapult in Pasargadae.

I'm an idiot. I'm preparing an assault on Bactra but I sent all the troops towards Tarsus I send some back.

Turn 8 -- 1180 AD

Pasargadae: Catapult > Buddhist Temple



Turn 9 -- 1190 AD

Persepolis starts Theatre. (Will Civics switch in a sec)

Assault on Tarsus: Bombard to 5%. Suicide Cat does serious damage to a Longbow. Sword defeats Longbow. Axe defeats Spear. Tarsus is razed. Horse Archer defeats Catapult that had evacuated the city during the interturn.

Mace kills a wounded Crossbow that had wandered out of Susa.

I revolt to Bureaucracy and Caste System. Artists are hired in Seville and Persepolis.

Turn 10 -- 1200 AD

Madrid: Mace > Catapult
Seville: Ditto
Pasargadae: Buddhist Temple > Longbow

Sword razes Bactra. I hope this isn't disagreed with... (btw, Bactra was on the island W of Persepolis)

Santiago is built, starts Lighthouse (obviously vetoable).

I send a worker towards Santiago, sorry about that as he won't stop until next turn.

Ok, Cyrus is down to 2 cities. Troops can be diverted to Susa if you so choose; Qin isn't doing anything there as far as I can tell. I have no idea where Gordium is (Hrm, we're going to have to cut through that knot).

I haven't reconnected the Ivory or Stone yet, we should have a worker freed up next turn who can head in that direction.

We have some unhappy cities, but dispersing the troops returning from Tarsus should help with that.

Peace, of course, is also an option. I leave that to the team to discuss and the next player to decide.

Here's our world now:

Here's the save:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/VQ05_AD-1200.Civ4SavedGame

 

[GreyFox]

When you said Qin declare war in your teaser post, I half expected we are not the receiving end

Good, free relationship boost with Monster Qin Keep it that way.

I would take Susa as soon as possible. Why give away a free city when we can take it? However, the downside is it will cause a border clash with JC. Kill Cyrus if possible, rid us off the "Yearn to Return to Susa" penalty. I suspect Gordium is at an island southwest of where Bactra used to stand.

I see everyone has a different religion, with MM the only one who is not having one that he found himself. A potential bud-missionary-spam target. ... BTW, did we found Hinduism? Then we might watch to convert to Hinduism, as suggested by bob (i think).

Good turns, ChrTh.


-

 

[ChrTh]

We did discover Hinduism, however, very few of our cities have it so the OR bonus wouldn't be realized.

If Gordium is SW of Bactra, then we have a galley nearby that can ferry troops

 

[seezachswim]

Excellent turns
As for our next move, I say capture susa first and if we can capture or destroy gordium. After that we should probably start planning our next war. It looks like guilds will come in, in a couple of turns, that of course means Conquistadors. China would be a very good target for conquest if we could build up the necassary forces. Thats a big if, though.

 

[ChrTh]

Well, Susa is going to need to be bombarded before it can be taken, I believe. Even with Mace it's tough to overcome its defense.

Do we necessarily want another war, though? Perhaps we should work on getting the circum bonus? Or do we not want to waste our UU by sitting still?

 

[GreyFox]

We did discover Hinduism, however, very few of our cities have it so the OR bonus wouldn't be realized.

Then it boils down to the choice between (A) Bud-miss spamming MM, or (B) Hin-miss spamming ourselves.

If Gordium is SW of Bactra, then we have a galley nearby that can ferry troops

Its just my suspiscion, reason being that part is fogged, and even at Monarch, cyrus can't have settled so much and so wide spread, so it must be close to Persepolis.

Who's UP? Maquis?

Oh, reminder: we still need that damned Great Prophet.

--

 

[Maquis]

Yup, I'm up. I'll get to it tonight, since the SGOTM starts tomorrow!

I'm not sure if we want to go for Susa; as bobrath pointed out, our culture will disappear and JC and Qin will suck up all the tiles.


As for another war, I don't think we want to start it right away. I would rather get our new cites up and running first.

As for research, I think that a beeline for Optics is in order. I want to focus on the variant, so discovering the New World is a high prioirity for me. We can make good use of our UU there!

Plus, the sooner we get there, the less advanced the barbs are.

 

[GreyFox]

Ok abt circumnavigation, we're a bit late though ... as pointed out, some Civs already have optics (I think).

well, I am ok with taking susa, I'm okay with leaving it alone. I'm not too concern with culture sucking it up. Worst come to worst, just raze it. Because if we don't take it, QSH will, and its the same stuation. Plus killing Cyrus free us the return-yearning thingy.

 

[ChrTh]

Some Civs have Compass; I didn't see any with Optics, but then again, you can't until you have Compass yourself.