War with RB

[Aivoturso]

It seems to me that any sensible division of land will greatly benefit Poly. This gives us opportunity for two diplomatic options. First, we can try to leverage this with our allies. In this scenario we'll let Poly to have the northern reaches and we also give CP more than their fair share of the land. We give the concessions in exchange for extended NAP and dibs in WPC and/or UCiv lands. So in short, we'll give up some short term gain but get much more land in the end. Only big drawback I see is that if we get majority of WPC & UCiv land, we may well face a 3 vs. 1 alliance, us being the solitary defender.

The other diplomatic option is to sow seeds of discord between CP and Poly. AFAIK, that shouldn't be too difficult. We aim to hold the peace until we can annex UCiv lands and at least some of WPC lands, but the ultimate plan is to orchestrate CP + CFC joined attack on Poly. Good thing with this plan would be that at worst we'll face 2 vs 2 war if Poly can talk CivFr on their side.

Anyway, I think that how this land division is handled will decide much of how the rest of the game will turn out. Though the land division itself is important, I think that how it will handled will be much more important. Thus, we should plan out our actions accordingly.

 

[2metraninja]

Possible land division v.CFC.0.1 :

Spoiler :

 

[2metraninja]

@ Aivo:

I see more us+Poly vs CivFR or CivFR+CP. Those guys are just getting along way too well for my liking and for my sensors to not sound the alarm. CivFR offered us peace when CP wanted, then they send 30 cuirs along with CP when CP wants and needs... I dont feel comfortable about those 2.

 

[Sommerswerd]

We have known all along that CP was planning to join with CivFr in the end. This should be no surprise to us. I think it should be obvious that those two are allied secretly all along and we must accept that CP is not going to be best-buddies with us, they already have their partner.

Anyway, we can deal with the potential CivFr/CP alliance later can't we? For now we need to figure out how to take UCiv's land next, or has the plan changed?

 

[Aivoturso]

@ Aivo:

I see more us+Poly vs CivFR or CivFR+CP. Those guys are just getting along way too well for my liking and for my sensors to not sound the alarm. CivFR offered us peace when CP wanted, then they send 30 cuirs along with CP when CP wants and needs... I dont feel comfortable about those 2.

Then I think that the key question is whether we want to face 2 vs 2 war and then dish it out with Poly, or would we rather go along with CP, sic them on Poly and prepare for the 2 vs 1 war against CP & CivFr later. Which one is in your opinion more dangerous, strong late game Poly or CP & CivFr late game alliance?

 

[2metraninja]

Uciv will be most probably way too big bite for us alone. With CP - maybe yes.

What we can do is gut WPC quick at t200

 

[2metraninja]

So we received maps from our allies and as expected, Ot4e's map is like: "Screw CFC", MZ's is a bit more fair, but still not in our favor. Will post them tomorrow.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Two thoughts:

1. As I said before, the correct play in this situation is to keep the discussion going and dont make any final agreements on anything. Meanwhile, we grab as many of the good sites as we can. Screw those tundra and ice cities, lets claim as many core cities as possible. Later on, we can claim that we had to do it for strategic blah, blah, blah... the point is, as 2metra already said possesion is 9/10ths of the law in this situation... Better to ask forgiveness than permission. Let them be the ones like WPC who are complaining how they were "cheated" as their neighbors move in for the kill.

2. We must also be careful not to make the mistake that RB made... Taking more than we can quickly develop and mobilize for the next War. IMO, if they had allowed WPC to have more of the German cities, they would have been more ready for us when the NAP ended. We should start focusing on taking only the cities that will be quickly developed and ready to contribute to the economy/War production. It seems more and more clear that the next War is coming immediately after this one ends, and this War will be the one that decides the winner of the game.

PS - We will need Rifling very soon and then MGs/Infantries to be ready for the next fight.

Finally... I also think that RB must be destroyed.

 

[2metraninja]

So, this is how our negotiations evolved (or it is more appropriate to say "degraded"?)

Spoiler :

Ot4e: hi
2metraninja: hi
I took the time to count tiles and have sent you numbers to look at
numbers are good when emotions escalate
while speaking of numbers, it turned out that we killed 20% more RB units than MZ for example
and speaking "CFC joined later and contributed the smallest" are simply not true
Изпратено в 10:18, четвъртък
Ot4e: With last thing I do not agree too. This should be discussed earlier and would not bring any good to our result I am sure.

Please pay attention that in each my long statement I first of all ask to respect what every one of us has done. Please focus on what you have done extra or suffered, while bringing facts.

For the same reason I dont accept argument that CFC has maintains 1st power.

Thanks in advance.
Изпратено в 10:25, четвъртък
2metraninja: what means "what everyone have done"?
MZprox: i just counted the resources, according to your division we get 20 including ones like desert iron. you wrote 24. just from this i question the other numbers of yours
Ot4e: everyone = each of us
each of us done great job
I repeat
we deserve more than entire Egypt
Изпратено в 10:29, четвъртък
MZprox: we refuse that aztec gets more cities than us while their cities/land is better and they have places for more cities. we refuse that cfc gets the same number of cities and same land power while they get wonders and more developed land.
we would agree that we and aztec about the sdame cities but theirs better
because their bigger losses
we would agree that cfc gets better land+shrine, but we get more cities
and again: cfc, your numbers are off, I don1t know how much, i only counted resources
now i need to go , please reinvite me later
Изпратено в 10:34, четвъртък
2metraninja: counting numbers is advancement I can say. I counted last night late and no wonder numbers can be wrong. I even asked both of you If my numbers are wrong, please, count them yourself, give the ciorrect and we can continue discussing what is fair
Изпратено в 10:58, четвъртък
Ot4e: I think numbers are not good to measure spoils. It is good as statistic supporting our estimations. But if you ask me how to measure Shrine with number of green tiles I say it is a waste of time. Same with lost hammers or not earned commerce. Same with good tiles. River tiles you didnt count. And so on...

It can only serve as a tool.
Изпратено в 11:02, четвъртък
2metraninja: "I think you must agree we deserve the shrine" is not any better measure
if numbers are not good measure and you dont care about numbers, make the division to heavily favor our team in numbers and we would happily accept
please, dont do this to us, saying number of tiles does not matter, lets keep the dialogue civilised and constructive
Изпратено в 11:07, четвъртък
2metraninja: instead of saying: you dont counted river tiles, please count them and say: "but you get more riverside tiles", or "Poly get more riverside tiles"
Изпратено в 11:11, четвъртък
Ot4e: I would if I knew it help us to come to the consensus
now I see that there are many numbers which absolutely do no use for overall estimation
at least I dont see how to use it
teach me
yes we may be get 20 more green tiles which will make nothing for like 50 more turns, but you get shrine which will start working asap
Изпратено в 11:16, четвъртък
Ot4e: I cant sell you just green tiles or ApolMZprox tundra tiles, which they mentioned many times
Изпратено в 11:18, четвъртък
2metraninja: you get 10 more towns than any of us, which will start give you way more than the shrine itself. is it true?
tundra tiles I never counted, avoid watering the subject
Изпратено в 11:25, четвъртък
MZprox: i am back
Ot4e: no there are many differences between shrine and cottages
I dont agree
Изпратено в 11:27, четвъртък
MZprox: I see not much really happened while i was away. anyway i think my arguments above are valid and should be accepted as general consensus
2metraninja: OK then, we will happily exchange shrine city for RB capitol
Ot4e: I can exchange cutting blade on the box of beer
let's be realistic
as you say
MZprox: the shrine city is more valuabel imho
2metraninja: all I can say is ot4e is not giving a way to measure where we all can see, but keeping criticizing our ways of measuring
let us see your reasons why you think you deserve 13 cities and we only 8
Ot4e: Hinduism gods couldnt prevent Egypt from falling, but they cursed invaders and they destroyed each other
2metraninja: and how all this changed from yesterday when you said you speak about 1-2 cities difference
and now it is 5 cities already
Ot4e: i said wrong, I wasnt speak about 1-2 of any cities, but 1 concrete city
Изпратено в 11:34, четвъртък
2metraninja: so 8 vs 13 is totally OK with your inner sense of fairness ?
Ot4e: our cities are bad, only few good ones we get, you get no less "good" cities than we do. Your calculation may mean whatever but they dont represent the true quality of cities. That's what I am trying to say
2metraninja: nothing moves inside of you?
why your cities to be bad?
Ot4e: 1 without food at all
2metraninja: your cities get 30+ towns, ours 20
Ot4e: 1 with only farms and jungle
2metraninja: you have 1/3 more good from us, how you dare saying you have no food?
more food
more cities
more towns
Ot4e: Mano was almost consumed by our culture already so we dont think that it is correct to take it in consideration
just because egypt managed finally to plant city next to us
so it makes us to get 1 less city from their core
2metraninja: 8 vs 13 ot4e
Ot4e: I've just said that 3 of those cities are not even costing like one
2metraninja: not counting the 3 cities you can plant in the tundra with tundra deeers
Ot4e: oh thank you
2metraninja: well, let me count our cities then
Ot4e: if you want tundra
we have already plenty of
2metraninja: Catherine and Winter wasteland barely make 1 city
Ot4e: you can come and rent it
it will be really cheap
2metraninja: oh, yesterday you were explaining to MZ how tundra deer is very good
Ot4e: lol?
2metraninja: dont make me search history
Ot4e: I said that tundra deers are bs
may be you got me wrong
2metraninja: maybe you said it wrong
Ot4e: may be
2metraninja: anyway, tundra are tundra
MZprox: we have several cities with tundra deer or less
2metraninja: I DID NOT COUNTER TUNDRA tiles
stop it
Ot4e: ok if you talk about deers more I start taking it personal
not all russians are fond of deers
and tundra
2metraninja: but you will put cities there, right?
answer me only this
Ot4e: where?
to the deers?
2metraninja: on the yellow spots MZ draw
Ot4e: I doubt
MZprox: the argument we would had gotten that city if rb didn't get it first is invalid: all 3 of us can say the same with their border cities
Ot4e: this is a waste
2metraninja: but you cant answer definite?
ok, I agree this is out of the main topic
lets get back to cities
8 vs 13
30+ towns vs 20
20+ more green tiles
even the geography is not working in your favor, ot4e
the shrine city is too close to the other 2 cities we will get
it will overwhelm them with culture
so you want 13 cities while you give us 8 and 2 of those 8 will be overhwelmed with the shrine culture?
we made war for 6 cities?
lol
Ot4e: shrine gives culture?
2metraninja: out of 30+ RB cities, we get 6?
of course it gives culture
Ot4e: how many if captured?
2metraninja: Holy City gives culture too
Ot4e: if you convert its religion
only
or free religion
Изпратено в 11:46, четвъртък
2metraninja: I see the main thing which we cannot agree is the shrine. I start to think we cant get to agreement. you refuse any measurable means of deciding who gets what
Ot4e: I dont agree that WW and Catherines are comparable to our jungle and elephant city. At least they have base food and coast tiles
Изпратено в 11:47, четвъртък
Ot4e: I dont find your proposal fair.

I would agree if we dont count efforts. But you are denying that we deserve more for what we have done. We were constantly sacrificing army... each turn, trying to pull each exchange and brought us all the best result. And now we are finishing with almost no army and even borrowing armies from 3rd party.

If not shrine then what do you give us? I believe shrine is the best spoil from this war which overweight some good tiles and plenty of useless together.
Изпратено в 11:54, четвъртък
2metraninja: if you miss your dead units, we can give you units to compensate you for your losses
if you value the shrine so high, then we can work out a deal - you give us 25 green tiles which you claim are not good worth and we give you the shrine
Изпратено в 11:58, четвъртък
2metraninja: you keep missing that you do get way more of RB without the shrine. if we are to give you the shrine, then we are completely robbed as you will get twice as much than us. keeping saying everyone had his role and had done great in this war and then proposing to an ally twice as smll reward is not good manners in my eyes
ok, lets ask MZ, who must get the shrine? is it far that both of you get 13 and 12 cities and we get only 8 ?
Изпратено в 12:02, четвъртък
MZprox: the main difference in our view comes from the disagreement about how much we should divide the land as compensation for our losses. It was not in the original agreement. we all slaved drafted down our cities, we are suffereing from war weariness.. we all went into the war to get about the ame worth of spoil in the end. Later I said and still holds that i think Aztecs should get somewhat better deal than us.. but not much more cities, land, towns, wonders etc
2metraninja: thank you!
Изпратено в 12:10, четвъртък
2metraninja: we never spoke about 8 vs 13 or something
or 50% more towns
or 50% more food
I would agree to something like 10.... 20% at most
8 : 13 is not fair
Изпратено в 12:13, четвъртък
Ot4e: Your proposal is not fair too.

About number of cities you can repeat it as many times as you like. But it changes nothing in our considerations.

Initially there were no bad cities of RB close to India. You are starting from the core. So getting the same number as us would anyway be much better compared to us. We never agreed that the number of cities must be equal, I would not agree on that, because as I say it is significantly biased equation.
Изпратено в 12:19, четвъртък
Ot4e: I wish we could skip those and start from the cities we take this turn.
those tundra deers makes no sense too
2metraninja: what makes a city "good"? isnt it how it is developed?
Ot4e: it cant be compared with the core
2metraninja: if it is how it is developed, well, you get RB capitol. the core of the core
Ot4e: not only how developed
2metraninja: but?
Ot4e: I can name good cities, but I am sure you can easily find them on the map
2metraninja: you avoid giving measurable way of comparing things and just repeat "this is what we thing is fair"
Ot4e: and stop operating with 13
2metraninja: it is true
why not operate with it?
it is the number of cities you fair gave to yourself
and you fair gave 8 to us
Ot4e: they are not equal and if we divide only good ones you get a fair part
2metraninja: I start to doubt your fairness and your good will
ok, lets divide cities on "great", "good" and "bad" and divide from there
let me start from there
Ot4e: may be it is the first good idea
2metraninja: there are 2 great cities in RB core lands and those are Capiotl and shrine city
you graciously want them both for yourself
lets continue with good cities
name them, which you think are good cities?
Ot4e: each city of you except catherine
Изпратено в 12:25, четвъртък
2metraninja: so, 7 good cities so far for us
which from yours are good?
Изпратено в 12:26, четвъртък
Ot4e: 4 I can count: tribes, gourmet, tree and cutting
Изпратено в 12:32, четвъртък
2metraninja: this is humorous
Изпратено в 12:34, четвъртък
2metraninja: how you evaluate the dependacy between different city tiers? how much good cities 1 great city is worth and how much bad cities 1 good city is worth?
Ot4e: Yes, I dont know truly how to evaluate.

if you want shrine it doesnt have unlimited price too
we can come to agreement where it goes to you
or we share income for some period I think
Изпратено в 12:39, четвъртък
2metraninja: now after this working on me, I am ready to accept even MZ's initial version
Ot4e: I only understand that what we proposed doesnt suit you. I can say the same about your proposal or criteria. Number of cities cant be main criteria
2metraninja: but ot4e, number of cities cannot be criteria, ok, I fully accept that. but it is somewhat telling.
same with good land tiles
same with towns
they are all not complete picture
Ot4e: it is the problem we need to solve
find the way that suits both
2metraninja: but combined, they give you ALWASY way more than to us
Ot4e: sounds simple?
2metraninja: you cant name 1 criteria where we get about similar spoils
yes, very simple - I say we agree on the MZ's proposal, which is something in between our 2 positions
Изпратено в 12:44, четвъртък
MZprox: glad to see that we are getting closer to each other. so since the two of us thinks that the divison i made is fair, to push it a bit: what if we also give aztec some units to facilitate the agreement. by some i mean some. not a whole lot, or fully compensate as it is alredy was taken into consideration
2metraninja: I think this can be arranged
Изпратено в 13:01, четвъртък
Ot4e: nice try to share your maintance
2metraninja: lol
then I withdraw my offer to give units
MZprox: actualoly we should be compensated as we need to pay for our surviving troops
2metraninja: jokingly I can say that your reckless attacks on RB were very good played move - give you reason to ask for way more spoils and then, cuts your maintenance by 50-60 gpt
Изпратено в 13:04, четвъртък
Ot4e: to compensate it each of you could pull on exchanges extra 10-15 units and sacrifice unnecessary forces. About this I was asking you almost each turn.

It was not intentionally. I wouldnt ask you to compensate reasonable losses, only those we take against rational estimations and self benefit.
Изпратено в 13:06, четвъртък
2metraninja: OK, we agreed to drop who made what efforts in the war, as you can see, things can be twisted - now you say units left alive are actually a burden
Ot4e: The deal you now propose only differs from our that the shrine goes to you completely. And it is a bigger step from us. We still think that we can pretend if not on the full shrine but at least for a part of it.
2metraninja: we agree each time that we all made efforts and without anyone of us this success would have been impossible
Ot4e: What can make this deal work in my view is if you release our loan or give us something else than shrine. For example we can agree on Catherine and WW if you dont like those much
2metraninja: lol
you evaluate the shrine 1500 gold?
or it is only half of the shrine?
Ot4e: I still think it is a bit biased to Ottomans, so you can simply share that small ammount between and your economics wont even notice it
2metraninja: no, this is not how you make business. you say you release the shrine, but then you want it to be payed?
so you get its worth and we pay its worth
Ot4e: I dont measure grassland tiles or shrines. I dont sell them or buy. I am saying what can make this deal work in my view
2metraninja: how is this concession on your part?
Ot4e: but you only make pressure on me
2metraninja: I know that when business positions does not meet, there are 2 ways: either both parties start to make concessions and they meet somewhere in the middle, or there simply is not deal
Ot4e: while Ottomans gets those 12 cities is ok
I dont understand this
2metraninja: but because our deal was already made and consumed - i.e. RB was attacked and we all put efforts and we agreed that we all deserve fair share of the spoil, then we must start closing options
I never said it is OK by us
I asked how is fair that we get 8 cities and CP gets 13 and Poly gets 12
I say it is somewhat compromise
which we are willing to make
Ot4e: cmon we do make concession too. Shrine is 60 gpt just for itself
2metraninja: since the beginnings of this negotiations, you only tell us how if wont work to make it fair. tell us how to make it fair
Ot4e: I told
2metraninja: it is 35 gpt as far as I know
Ot4e: MZ map + loan release or small tundra cities
2metraninja: where you count 60 hindu cities?
Ot4e: which almost bring no towns or grassland
there is a bank
and henge
2metraninja: oh, now Winter Wastelands are "small" city? just 30 minutes ago it was "good" city
Ot4e: and good GP demographics
MZprox: our cities: 2 tundra cities, war paint only gets food it steals from the capital, most of the cities have a single food resource, only a few developed cottage.. mostly unimrowed plains. your cities are more green, has more buildings than a single granary and have some wonders (zeus very powerfull, shrine very powerfull, greatwall is great, hanging gardens, stonehenge are fine)
2metraninja: bank can not survive
then?
Ot4e: yes but in your table it almost have no impact
no towns
no grass
small food
I dont know why do I propose it but whatever.
2metraninja: in my table, you already have 50% more than us
how giving you a bit more will make things fair?
Ot4e:
2metraninja: either you recognize our table, or you dont
Изпратено в 13:17, четвъртък
2metraninja: I will put MZ's map for voting on our team. either we agree on it, or we dont. you can make the same. it is my honest belief that we are getting the least already with MZ's map, but if it will help settle or disagreements, can swalow it down along with my pride
Изпратено в 13:23, четвъртък
2metraninja: if you Ot4e keep claiming it is not fair division in terms you must get more than it, I think I will have my opinion on your fairness changed
excuse me for now

And here is the MZ's map:

Spoiler :

 

[2metraninja]

So, please, everyone vote if we accept this land division. If needed, lets have official vote posted.

 

[2metraninja]

Any advices/opinions are also welcome, as I feel like starting to get out of patience and tolerance.

 

[vranasm]

well it shows why in history so many alliances broke and went nowhere...

I doubt I will be much of help except for some heads up and wishing gl.

another thing I find quite irony is how CP position changed from "they are our best allies" to "they want to screw us together with CivFR".

I think the civ that ends as 1st score after the RB war will have worst diplomacy position and since there is still so many competitors for win it's important to have still some allies.

So we really should be careful how much ham we want to go with this one... giving couple more cities to CP, so Poly has some angry on them... well played for our diplomacy imo...

there will be some dogpile after the war for sure... let's make sure we're not the target of such dogpile.

 

[bistrita]

I am vey unpleased but what we can do as i suspect for a very long time Ote its behind our war with french and now what happening its outrageous.We lose far more then we wib from this war.Without this we would have been a very second power civ near top and now will be third and them would have been small and pitifull and they feel this is not right?

He gets more then 70 food, is that worth a shrine? oh yeah 30 merchants 90 gold.

 

[vranasm]

I am vey unpleased but what we can do as i suspect for a very long time Ote its behind our war with french and now what happening its outrageous.We lose far more then we wib from this war.Without this we would have been a very second power civ near top and now will be third and them would have been small and pitifull and they feel this is not right?

He gets more then 70 food, is that worth a shrine? oh yeah 30 merchants 90 gold.

just remember that RB played even stronger game then us and now their land is parted by 3 teams...

btw they really want to give us that horrible desert site nearly undefendable? it's almost like insult.

 

[bistrita]

we are realy insulted by this guy.Well we have to take care Mz remains our freind as i dont belive ote at all.He realy treats us with disrect and belives us stupid.This is my personal opinion and i belive that about Ote for a long time.

 

[2metraninja]

We went to paying 1 turn of income each - CFC and Poly for Ot4e accepting the MZ map. But this is not the end:

Ot4e: the spoon is good before the dinner
MZprox: then stop talking about your losses..
Изпратено в 15:07, четвъртък
MZprox: nevertheless I will consider paying gold to aztec just to come to agreement., but i think our offer is fair already
i don't want my team to spit in my face for betraying our interest compületely
Ot4e: haha
ok I stop talking
the plot is exhausted
аз: I remember as if it was yesterday how ot4e came and asked me humbly that because he seems to be the weakest he is afraid that he will conquer the least cities and he is afraid he will get not fair share from the spoils. I did not hesitated a second to give him my man's word I will not allow this to happen. I even told him he must send units in our army, etc, etc. and then ot4e asked me to ask MZ to make the same promise. now I see things have changed a bit in the meanwhile. to continue the food theme, we say that the apetite comes with eating
Ot4e: you are just wasting my time
nice speech Metra
аз: nice bagraining, ot4e
our current income is 400 gold, is that OK with you?
Изпратено в 15:15, четвъртък
MZprox: our income is 490
Ot4e:
400/500 is OK, not changing that I think it is a bit biased to Ottomans
we asked for 1500 loan with interest
now we will return 1100, ok?
do I understand correct
I wont bargain for 50 coins
other 100 ask from MZ
* he has
Изпратено в 15:22, четвъртък
аз: how (1500+10%)-400=1100?
Ot4e: simple, if you give us "income" we dont take it as loan
but ok
how much we return
just say
аз: loan is separate then if you exclude it
the turn we will get the shrine, we will give you 400 gold
loan is 1500+10%=1650 gold you will owe us

 

[2metraninja]

we are realy insulted by this guy.Well we have to take care Mz remains our freind as i dont belive ote at all.He realy treats us with disrect and belives us stupid.This is my personal opinion and i belive that about Ote for a long time.

Yes, I think we wont have much problems with keeping MZ as our friend:

MZprox: lol, poor aztecs getting only 4 good city.. we greedy bastards
Изпратено в 12:33, четвъртък
MZprox: i thinkj you should support our version. you wouldn't get cutting, we would get to rebuild speed. it is arguable that you get less, but you get mostly good city places and the shrine will help you much more than a few more poor city would do. it doesn't require maintenance and gives you base 40 ppt, potentially 50-60*3 later
Изпратено в 12:38, четвъртък
аз: man, this guy is bargaining and twisting like gipsy
MZprox:
аз: he never asked for the only thing I am glad in this theater
it is that he showed his true colors and I wont ever since now consider a deals with him
Изпратено в 15:20, четвъртък
MZprox: jah.. strange he did not accepted the units.. getting just 4-5 rifles from us worth more than 500g
Изпратено в 15:23, четвъртък
MZprox: i was considering btw giving up speed racer.. it has a town but no food resource.. but my offer would had included that we are pulling out our troops right now from the war
Изпратено в 15:24, четвъртък
аз: we are the outright lied in this deal, but it is OK
I just want to end this circus
MZprox: jah, me too
аз: if ot4e is worth this much, I am happy to pay his miserable price

 

[2metraninja]

ot4e: Metra, one more thing
I hope you dont mind that we keep those FW too
Изпратено в 16:25, четвъртък
ot4e: to hook our tundra deers faster
аз: no, the FWs it was clear that are our property and we are loaning them to you
for military purposes
we have land to develop too

ot4e: yes but it needs to soften hearts of my team you tear into pieces
аз: not much as you, but still we value it
Изпратено в 16:27, четвъртък
ot4e: and he says I bargain
аз: bargain?
yes, to my understanding "bargaining" fits well when discussing over OUR fast workers
Изпратено в 16:29, четвъртък
ot4e: ok should expect it
ok we can live without them
was just checking how generous you are

 

[vranasm]

^^ that kinda made my day...

 

[2metraninja]

Yes, his exit was pure genius.