[BTS] Warhammer FB Conversion Beta - Download/Debug Thread

[Psychic_Llamas]

great ideas here guys, though can we please move discussion to my minimod thread, id rather this one not get cluttered

i love the idea of terrain based invisibility, and of recon being anti recon as well as anti mage and beast. i think ill simply make some more recon only promotions that can be used to upgrade recon units as the player (or ai) see fit, such as 'Stealth' (+x first strikes) Hill camophlage (require stealth), forest/jungle camophlage (require stealth), mountaineering (move through peak tiles, require Hill camophlage), Forest/jungle navigation (ignore terrain move penalties from forest and jungle, requires forest/jungle camophlage)

and then this way some civs can have recon unit which start with some of these promotions (ie Dwarfs start with mountaineering, WE beastmen lizard amazon start with Forest/jungle navigation, etc.

perhaps further promotion chains to improve figting power agains beasts and assassination abilities...

 

[rocklikeafool]

Well, since you wanna move it, perhaps you should quote wat has been said and put it inside spoilers or summarize it and place it all in your minimod thread.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

heres the few promos ive made so far, just working on art to ease myself back in, once theyre all done ill code and upload the recon mod

 

[kzwix]

They do look good ! However, the "mountaineering" promotion seems to be overpowerful. I mean, HOW will you kill a unit which has taken refuge on a mountain ? Will bombardments and the like be enough ? And how much defensive bonus will you give the unit, in case another unit with mountaineering attacks it ?

 

[rocklikeafool]

Ooh, very nice.

@kzwix
How to kill a unit on a mountain is with a flyin unit or nother unit with mountaineerin. For example, a Griphon or a Manticore can easily kill a unit on a mountain.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

yeh the counter four mountaineering units would be other mountaineering units and flying units. id probably make peak defences the same as hills.

 

[rocklikeafool]

Sounds good to me.

 

[kzwix]

Peak defense should be more than 25% bonus. At least 50%, like a forest, and possibly 75%, like a forested hill. After all, there are no forests on mountains, so there are no risks of cumulating huge bonuses.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

i cant chnage the defence on peaks, i need more new tags to do so which i dont have and dont know how to do, so peak defence is the same as flatland iirc...

 

[Ahriman]

I have no problem with no peak defence; only a handful of units can travel there at all. Think of it this way; you could have no bonuses, or you could have a 50% attack/defence bonus for all units that can travel there, no difference.

If anything, I'd argue that peaks *shouldn't* give any terrain bonuses; while in very steep alpine terrain, you're very vulnerable. A flying unit giving you a bit of a push, or someone starting a rockslide above you, etc. etc. You can't dig in and fortify in an extreme alpine environment.

Up in the mountains, the terrain isn't your ally, its your enemy, for an attacker or defender.

 

[kzwix]

Ahriman, I strongly disagree on your last point. I can guarantee you that being "fortified" on a mountain is a HUGE defensive advantage. Horses cannot run you over, infantry cannot charge (don't forget YOU are at the high point, they are climbing a rock wall or walking up a steep slope), people reach you after a tiring ascenscion, there are chokepoints, places where to ambush efficiently, and so on... Oh, and you can throw rocks down at people, or lumbers, or anything else which is heavy and prone to wreak havoc downwards. Minimal effort for you, maximum damage for the attacker.

Of course, all this is true only as long as the attacker has to come from the ground. So flying units could have an attack bonus on mountains, meant to cancel exactly the defensive bonus granted.

Well, I suppose this matters little as long as one doesn't know how to add a new tag.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

this all comes to naught because i cant add defence or attack bonuses for peaks so why bother arguing?

 

[Ahriman]

I'd argue that the negative effects from trying to survive in inhospitable terrain being pummeled by storms and the like or being on open exposed rock faces could outweigh. Whereas an attacker can hang around in the valleys and starve you out for a while.
I'd agree that mountains can provide a tactical advantage for defenders in some situations, but perhaps not much of a strategic one.

I wouldn't like to try to attack someone in the mountains, but I wouldn't want to try to hide in an alpine environment with an army and try to defend myself either.

so why bother arguing?

*confusion* Are you new to teh interwebs??

But yes, the point is somewhat moot. All I'm really arguing is that there is *some* kind of rationalisation possible for no peak terrain bonuses.

Another thought; being able to move through peaks could be an inherent Skaven racial advantage for many of their units, simulating cave/tunnel systems. Possibly attach a moves-through-peaks promotion to most units for the Subterranean leader trait.

 

[_jet_]

Why is the undead races disabled for oneself but available for AI? Is there a reason or is it just minor bug so I can go into the civ info xml and set playable to 1?

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

ploep disabled the undead beacuse they need necromancy magic to be of ANY use at all, and i havent done it yet. so i plan on making them all avaliable again with my modmod

 

[rocklikeafool]

Good, lookin forward to tryin out that Necromancy. I always was a fan of Necromancy in fantasy games.

 

[Ahriman]

Khemri and Lamia really need to be redesigned to use something like the Scions of Patria (Tarqueline's Fall Further modmodmod) population mechanics; fallow population, new population spawns in the capital or is built.

 

[kzwix]

I wonder... couldn't the undead "Harvest" corpses to create population for their cities ? Or do they still need the living, even in their own cities, if only to produce new bones and corpses to control ?

 

[rocklikeafool]

Khemri and Lamia really need to be redesigned to use something like the Scions of Patria (Tarqueline's Fall Further modmodmod) population mechanics; fallow population, new population spawns in the capital or is built.

I agree. Tho, frankly, Lahmia is more of a civ ruled by Vampire b*thces as opposed to bein undead. So, maybe this should jus be applied to Khemri.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

Khemri will definately use scions of patria mechanics. Lhamia like rlaf says is more like the calabim, being human slaves dominated by poweful vampiress seductressess, similar the the calabim. the vampire counts are human populations ruled by vampire aristocracy who still feel a sence of duty toward the humans, and so could technically be considered less evil than the lhamians, however their strong synergy with necromancy magic makes them a lot more evil than some civs.