Warrior First, when is it optimal?

[NuttyPenguins]

Title says it all.

Is it optimal only if you are in a situation where a worker couldn't improve any tiles when it completed?

Let's say; you have cows and pigs in your initial BFC, and every hill is covered in forest. And your starting techs are hunting and mysticism.

Does the case have to be that extreme for warrior first to be best?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Warrior first isn't even close to best in that case.

Warrior first is largely a MP strategy to survive or something you'll do if you are 2 techs away from any food resource.

 

[NuttyPenguins]

Warrior first isn't even close to best in that case.

Warrior first is largely a MP strategy to survive or something you'll do if you are 2 techs away from any food resource.

So then, what do you go first in that case? A worker seems useless, as it will sit for several turns unable to do anything... (4-7 depending on tech path to AH and available commerce.)

 

[Noogai]

Raging barbs deity with no seafood?

 

[SeptimusOctopus]

Curiously enough, I read this thread, then started a random game. I got this start:

Spoiler :

I got Asoka, who starts with mining and mysticism. The only foods are 2 crabs and a sheep tile, neither of which can be improved that quickly. Is warrior first optimal here or would something else be better? I picked a settler first just as a place holder.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

So then, what do you go first in that case? A worker seems useless, as it will sit for several turns unable to do anything... (4-7 depending on tech path to AH and available commerce.)

Build a worker and research AH immediately. Unless you're expansive a worker takes 15 turns to research on normal speed; AH will generally not take much longer if at all.

The yields from those tiles offer you a heck of a lot more than slow growth to pop 2 and a warrior.

 

[AbsoluteZero]

Worker steal + choke is when i go warrior first.

In many cases it's tough to find a rival civ with only 1 warrior, so the extra warrior helps in scouting and also choking.

 

[NuttyPenguins]

Build a worker and research AH immediately. Unless you're expansive a worker takes 15 turns to research on normal speed; AH will generally not take much longer if at all.

The yields from those tiles offer you a heck of a lot more than slow growth to pop 2 and a warrior.

If you start with Hunting and Mysticism, as I noted in the OP, you would have to research AH and AG before you could improve your food tiles. Thats nearly 20 turns (6-8 for AG, and 12-14 for AH) where you dont have the tech needed. Depending on the map, this could mean 3, 4, 5 or maybe even more idle worker turns.

Now you could Queue up a warrior, only to replace it with a worker when you get to within 15 turns of completing AH. Gaining the growth, and still finishing your worker in time.


@ SeptimusOctopus:

I would queue a warrior while I teched fishing, and switch to a fishing boat. But I doubt this is "optimal" play. I could see an argument to start work on a worker, before switching to a fishing boat too. Or even just building the warrior outright.

Worker steal + choke is when i go warrior first.

In many cases it's tough to find a rival civ with only 1 warrior, so the extra warrior helps in scouting and also choking.

And what makes you decide to go warrior first? Besides being Inca

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Let's say; you have cows and pigs in your initial BFC, and every hill is covered in forest. And your starting techs are hunting and mysticism.

That's a pretty clear case for worker first (Edit: Hunting is all you need to research AH). Wheel or Fishing plus Mysticism, maybe.

Does the case have to be that extreme for warrior first to be best?

No, there are a few patterns when warrior first can make sense.

(a) If your first tech is going to be Bronze Working, and you have the right combination of tiles to whip the worker.

(b) Warrior rush

(c) If your first tech is going to be Fishing

(d) When you need two techs to unlock a Food resource (Animal Husbandry and no pre-reqs)

 

[NuttyPenguins]

That's a pretty clear case for worker first (Edit: Hunting is all you need to research AH). Wheel or Fishing plus Mysticism, maybe.

OMG. It never occured to me that hunting is a pre-req. I'm so bad at this game

 

[SeptimusOctopus]

@ SeptimusOctopus:

I would queue a warrior while I teched fishing, and switch to a fishing boat. But I doubt this is "optimal" play. I could see an argument to start work on a worker, before switching to a fishing boat too. Or even just building the warrior outright.

I ended up going BW and worker first in that one (both the tech and unit took 15 turns to get). It let me build some mines and chop out workboats, so I figured that was a decent start. I guess that's kind of using workers to improve the seafood.

 

[pi-r8]

I made a thread about this a while ago. You need a really weird situation for warrior-first to be optimal for growth. Like no food resources, no forests, and oasis/lake tiles. Even with just forests, worker first will be better because of chopping.

 

[Riflin'Joe]

Warrior first is best when it starts with the letter Q. (Just don't throw it into a privet bush.)

 

[ManiaMuse]

Marathon speed?

 

[Kid R]

@septimus

I often go BW first with India too, especially when there is a ton of forests to chop like you had. FWIW I quite often find myself chopping stonehenge soon after that while I wait for the food techs to come in.

 

[Jet]

Is it optimal only if you are in a situation where a worker couldn't improve any tiles when it completed?

Mostly.

With some seafood starts you might not want to start with the worker if you're going to research fishing first, and if the worker wouldn't have anything good to do yet. You could start the worker, switch to a work boat, then finish the worker. But you also might grow on a 3F to size 2 while researching Fishing, then build the WB on 2 1F2+H tiles. That I do sometimes.

Also, while the warrior or a scout is very rarely better than a worker that has something good to do, it's not useless. It has value for exploration and huts, and potentially in a worker steal or warrior rush. Some game settings or personal preference might nudge you toward that.

 

[lymond]

^^^I'd say a scout is never better

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

Warrior first only if I don't have a food to improve with a worker and I have to research a tech like AH that is going to come out a couple turns after my worker. They I only put enough turns into the warrior so that my worker comes out in time to move to the food and improve it on the next turn when the tech comes in. I wouldn't really say it's a warrior first start, more or less just optimal micro.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

If you can't get a worker tech that you can use by the time you would make a worker, I'd put the hammers into a building or stonehenge (if I have mysticism). The hammers stay around longer and, in the case of stonehenge, give you fail gold.

 

[kossmikman]

Go warrior first only in multiplayer or with raging barbs. In the worst case scenario, you're only one tech away from improving your nearest resource. By the time your first worker goes out, the tech should be completed.