Was Adam a Slave?

[Lillefix]

One does not ask if the the sky is blue to find out if the sky is blue. Questions with obvious answers usually have another purpose.

J

In order for life to exist certain physical constants need to have certain value. This universe have these values. Could God create a universe with life using constants that according to our understanding of physics cannot create life?

 

[Hygro]

One does not ask if the the sky is blue to find out if the sky is blue. Questions with obvious answers usually have another purpose.

J

I'd like you to take ownership of your answer, but I don't really care which answer you give. The answer isn't obvious however because different theologies (even within Christianity) have different takes.

 

[Diavolo Rosso]

I think we all need to take into account that the first few chapters of the Book of Genesis is compressed summation of the much older Enuma Elish.

 

[Berzerker]

well, Abraham was a Sumerian so I'd expect Mesopotamian religion and myth to form the basis of the older Bible stories

 

[onejayhawk]

well, Abraham was a Sumerian so I'd expect Mesopotamian religion and myth to form the basis of the older Bible stories

On a Biblical timeline, one of Noah's sons, Shem, was still around. he would be Abrams 9th generation grandfather IIRC. Some think he is the same person as Melchizadek.

J

 

[El_Machinae]

Why would anyone think that Abraham's ninth generation grandfather was a contemporary of Abraham?

 

[timtofly]

I think we all need to take into account that the first few chapters of the Book of Genesis is compressed summation of the much older Enuma Elish.

They are totally different topics. How do you reconcile that?

The Enuma Elish found is dated to around 1100, but seem to be of older origins. Moses lived in the 1200's and claimed to receive the info from God. I am not getting the point where one is the summation of the other.

The Hebrews of the land before the Exodus of Egypt either never went to Egypt, or they did go to Egypt. If they went to Egypt and lived for 400 years, their stories would be tainted with Egyptian myths.

The problem with viewing modern religions as Abrahamic has some mis-connotations. Abraham never wrote down anything nor passed any ideologies along to children nor did he have a religious following. He did tell them about a God who appeared to him in person and spoke to him quite a few times. This God was known as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob from before the time spent in Egypt. He appeared to Moses and the Jews differently than he did to their fathers, but they seemed to accept him as the same God.

Adam may not have been a slave? Were the Jews ever slaves in Egypt?

Why would anyone think that Abraham's ninth generation grandfather was a contemporary of Abraham?

Genesis 11 says that Shem lived for 600 years.

 

[onejayhawk]

They are totally different topics. How do you reconcile that?

The Enuma Elish found is dated to around 1100, but seem to be of older origins. Moses lived in the 1200's and claimed to receive the info from God. I am not getting the point where one is the summation of the other.

The Hebrews of the land before the Exodus of Egypt either never went to Egypt, or they did go to Egypt. If they went to Egypt and lived for 400 years, their stories would be tainted with Egyptian myths.

The problem with viewing modern religions as Abrahamic has some mis-connotations. Abraham never wrote down anything nor passed any ideologies along to children nor did he have a religious following. He did tell them about a God who appeared to him in person and spoke to him quite a few times. This God was known as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob from before the time spent in Egypt. He appeared to Moses and the Jews differently than he did to their fathers, but they seemed to accept him as the same God.

Adam may not have been a slave? Were the Jews ever slaves in Egypt?

Please provide reference the bolded. Moses claimed to be sent by God for a specific purpose. I do not know of anyplace he claimed special knowledge of the origins.

Genesis 11 says that Shem lived for 600 years.

That would include about 500 years after the deluge. Abram would be 300-350 years after. Shem would have outlived Abraham.

J

 

[warpus]

What in the Bible allowed these people to live so long, did God give them extra powers after the flood so that they could best spread his message or whatever?

And when did this stop and why?

I don't remember learning about people living to be 900 years old in Sunday school, and I had a heavy religious upbringing (from society, not my parents)

 

[onejayhawk]

What in the Bible allowed these people to live so long, did God give them extra powers after the flood so that they could best spread his message or whatever?

And when did this stop and why?

I don't remember learning about people living to be 900 years old in Sunday school, and I had a heavy religious upbringing (from society, not my parents)

Actually, that is self consistent. Blame our shorter lifespans on inbreeding from a pool of only five people.

As to why you do not remember, it was not something they taught children would be my guess. It is quite clear in the rext.

J

 

[El_Machinae]

I'm not sure they knew about inbreeding. Tolkien also had "the ancient peoples were superior" as a storytelling device.

 

[Berzerker]

They are totally different topics. How do you reconcile that?

Sumerian Tiamat = biblical Tehom (Gen 1:2), in both versions the waters precede the creator and his creation

The Enuma Elish found is dated to around 1100, but seem to be of older origins.

Quite a bit older, Abraham probably knew the Mesopotamian version of the epic of creation popular in his time. The Babylonian Marduk of the 2nd millennium supplanted the earlier Sumerian An and Enlil in the role of creator.

The Hebrews of the land before the Exodus of Egypt either never went to Egypt, or they did go to Egypt. If they went to Egypt and lived for 400 years, their stories would be tainted with Egyptian myths.

Thats why they spent 40 years wandering, the incident of the golden calf was Moses (and God) cutting off Egypt and her traditions. Actually thats a good point though, if they did spend centuries in Egypt how'd they adopt Mesopotamian mythology? Abraham before Egypt and the Canaanites after the Exodus.

Abraham never wrote down anything nor passed any ideologies along to children nor did he have a religious following.

He was a wealthy Sumerian merchant and the father of several nations, he left something behind for them even if we dont have it.

 

[warpus]

Actually, that is self consistent. Blame our shorter lifespans on inbreeding from a pool of only five people.

So there were 5 people who lived to be 900 years old each. They interbred and had children, and those children interbred, and then uncles interbred with sisters and brothers with aunts and mothers and even cousins with grandmothers, and whatever else, and 5,000 years later or so people only live to be say 80 years old because of all of that initial interbreeding.

That is a pretty epic story. Why didn't they teach this to me when I was learning about the creation of the world and how things came to be? I mean, they didn't even have to get into the sexual aspect of it. They could have said it was God's plan for humanity that's too complicated for children to understand. I would have bought that. I would have been amazed at how everything came to be and how people used to live to be A THOUSAND YEARS OLD.

I guess maybe they didn't want to confuse us. Somebody's brother became his father? And a grandmother that can turn into a sister? That just confuses children about the type of family the church wants us to live in, I guess. I can totally now see everyone at the meeting agreeing to not teach the part about interbreeding. But the part about people getting to live to be hundreds of years old? If you want to keep kids interested in church, tell them that part. and more stuff like that. Aren't there giants in the Bible? And dragon-like beasts or something? I might be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure there's giants.. and maybe angels? Focus on that stuff and you will get kids hooked.

 

[onejayhawk]

Quite a bit older, Abraham probably knew the Mesopotamian version of the epic of creation popular in his time. The Babylonian Marduk of the 2nd millennium supplanted the earlier Sumerian An and Enlil in the role of creator.

Thats why they spent 40 years wandering, the incident of the golden calf was Moses (and God) cutting off Egypt and her traditions. Actually thats a good point though, if they did spend centuries in Egypt how'd they adopt Mesopotamian mythology? Abraham before Egypt and the Canaanites after the Exodus.

Also they were kept separate from the Egyption population, in a region considered inferior. It was not flooded by the Nile, which made it unsuitable for their style of agriculture. Herding was a menial occupation. They remained a nation in a nation.

He was a wealthy Sumerian merchant and the father of several nations, he left something behind for them even if we dont have it.

More than that. His household was a nation unto itself. In the battle of the 5 kings against the 3, he defeated a victorious army, just to get his nephew back. When he wanted a burial plot, the local elders quoted a ridiculous price, which he paid in gold.

J

 

[onejayhawk]

So there were 5 people who lived to be 900 years old each. They interbred and had children, and those children interbred, and then uncles interbred with sisters and brothers with aunts and mothers and even cousins with grandmothers, and whatever else, and 5,000 years later or so people only live to be say 80 years old because of all of that initial interbreeding.

That is a pretty epic story. Why didn't they teach this to me when I was learning about the creation of the world and how things came to be? I mean, they didn't even have to get into the sexual aspect of it. They could have said it was God's plan for humanity that's too complicated for children to understand. I would have bought that. I would have been amazed at how everything came to be and how people used to live to be A THOUSAND YEARS OLD.

I guess maybe they didn't want to confuse us. Somebody's brother became his father? And a grandmother that can turn into a sister? That just confuses children about the type of family the church wants us to live in, I guess. I can totally now see everyone at the meeting agreeing to not teach the part about interbreeding. But the part about people getting to live to be hundreds of years old? If you want to keep kids interested in church, tell them that part. and more stuff like that. Aren't there giants in the Bible? And dragon-like beasts or something? I might be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure there's giants.. and maybe angels? Focus on that stuff and you will get kids hooked.

Not exactly. Adam and his progeny almost all lived over 900 years. Methuselah is famously the longest lived of the bunch, dying the year of the flood (in the flood?).

Noah, his wife and three daughters-in-law are the five people. Other than Noah, who was about 600 at the time of the flood, the genealogy only gives the ages of the line leading to Abraham.

J

 

[JollyRoger]

Given that Noah spent his post-flood days drunk and naked, it seems God gave him frat boy powers to help repopulate the planet.

 

[Berzerker]

I suspect the lengthy biblical lifespans were due to God's spirit or blood being in the early line of patriarchs. Genesis says the sons of God were on the Earth before and after the Flood and they had children with the daughters of men. Their offspring were like the demigods of Greek myth

More than that. His household was a nation unto itself. In the battle of the 5 kings against the 3, he defeated a victorious army, just to get his nephew back. When he wanted a burial plot, the local elders quoted a ridiculous price, which he paid in gold.

Yes, very peculiar episode right before Sodom and Gomorrah and 3 other cities were blow'd up by angels

 

[onejayhawk]

Yes, very peculiar episode right before Sodom and Gomorrah and 3 other cities were blow'd up by angels

Volcano, I think.

Ninevah was destroyed by fire and water--ash on one side, lakewater rushing into a subsidance on the other.

 

[Harv]

When he wanted a burial plot, the local elders quoted a ridiculous price, which he paid in gold.

J

Genesis 23:

10 Ephron was present with the Hittites. So in the presence of all the Hittites who came to the gate of his city, Ephron the Hittite answered Abraham: 11 "No, my lord. Listen to me. I give you the field, and I give you the cave that is in it. I give it to you in the presence of my people. Bury your dead."

. . .

14 Ephron answered Abraham and said to him 15 "My lord, listen to me. Land worth 400 shekels of silver-what is that between you and me? Bury your dead." 16 Abraham agreed with Ephron, and Abraham weighed out to Ephron the silver that he had agreed to in the hearing of the Hittites: 400 shekels of silver at the current commercial rate.

Did I grab the wrong burial plot? 400 shekels sounds more like a pittance to Abraham and Ephron rather than an outrageous price. That is about 160 Troy ounces of silver, worth about $3200 USD at todays prices?

........

I have another question, now that this thread is about taking quotes from Genesis out of context and turning them into silly questions.....

Genesis 10:

25 Eber had two sons. One was named Peleg, for during his days the earth was divided; his brother was named Joktan.

Does this mean after the Flood and before Peleg, the world was a Pangea?

 

[El_Machinae]

There's no evidence that they had any conception of 'continents' really. BUT,

Pelagic zone
Any water in a sea or lake that is neither close to the bottom nor near the shore can be said to be in the pelagic zone. The word pelagic is derived from Ancient Greek πέλαγος, meaning "open sea"

hmmmm