Was it necessary to drop the bomb?

Was it necessary to drop the bomb?


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Well, as I said, I suspect it comes down to how strict a surrender conditions you think is preferable, and at what price.

I don't think there will ever be a definative answer, as it really is a value judgment in something of a grey area. Still, that doesn't stop people from forming opinions. ;)
 
Sidhe, unfortunately, in presenting your own arguments here as matter of fact does not rest well with your continued citation of other opinion-generators and editorialists. It is a difficult task for you to attempt to express your opinions and interpretations of others' opinions as historical truth.

Do you think you simply want to believe your favorite pincushion would willingly kill two hundred thousand in an attempt to mearely scare the Russians? Your posts are indicating this anyways.

Check out The Manhattan Project: The Making of the Atomic Bomb, written by F. Gosling. This is not a rash desensitive picture of the use of the bomb, but does a good job of illustrating why it was necessary.

Oh dear me. I just cited another editorialist.
 
The world had to see one bomb going off on targets, otherwise the cold war may have broken out in nuclear exchange
 
Sidhe, unfortunately, in presenting your own arguments here as matter of fact does not rest well with your continued citation of other opinion-generators and editorialists. It is a difficult task for you to attempt to express your opinions and interpretations of others' opinions as historical truth.

Do you think you simply want to believe your favorite pincushion would willingly kill two hundred thousand in an attempt to mearely scare the Russians? Your posts are indicating this anyways.

Check out The Manhattan Project: The Making of the Atomic Bomb, written by F. Gosling. This is not a rash desensitive picture of the use of the bomb, but does a good job of illustrating why it was necessary.

Oh dear me. I just cited another editorialist.

Er how does presenting as a matter of public record, people directly involved with the decision equate to editorialising? They either said they thought it was unnecessary or they didn't? Sorry you've lost me there?Eisenhower, Admiral Nimitz, the Admiral of the Pacific Fleet, The Field Marshal of the US army,Winston Churchill; are we assuming they lied or were on the take from the author?

And another thing? How do I say my opinion is a matter of fact anyway? My source is creditable, either debunk it or admit you can't, or say you think it's all lies? But please don't seek to claim it's just an editorialised load of bunk? You'd have to prove that by having read it at least, no?
 
I wrote a paper on the subject for my A-level history, and so I've had a chance to look at a number of primary and secndary sources, and I've come to the conclusion it was a pointless and unneeded act.
I am sure your reason is a noble and humanitarian one for you conclusion of the bombs being pointless and unneeded but it doesn't mean that it is the right one for a pragmatic one.:)

There are several reasons:
and my thoughts and questions on them...:D

1. Japan had attempted to surrender months prior to the bombs being dropped, having sent messages to the USSR and the US requesting surrender on the same conditions as were eventually accepted.
If there is a way to validate this then the question must be raised:What are the conditions of the Japanese's proposals that was rejected by these two superpowers.

2.There was a fairly strong peace-seeking faction in the government
Peace-seeking factions or its opposites,it shows nothing on who have the better power over the other.

3. It was widely accepted that Japan's whole ability to wage war was destroyed, and it would collapse from inside
Another assumption is that for some perspectives that it was widely accepted that Japan's ability to defend itself of a land invasion would not be deterred.


The primary reasons for dropping the bomb are, IMHO, as follows, in no particular order:
1.To shake the USSR up
2.Revenge
3.Testing the weapon on live subjects.
4.The poeple in charge of the project, and Henry Stimson, Secretary Of War, had to justify the expenditure put into the project.
5.The Soviet invasion of Japan was embarassing to America
6.To make sure the USSR had no real future in the East.
This is a good list and i have to say these are(in my opinion) are reasons raised after the surrender of Japan to United States and the consequences of it during the Cold War.

People who lend credence to this, by providing evidence for the futility of it include:
-Henry Stimson, US Secretary of War under Roosevelt and Truman
-Dwight D. Eisenhower. General of the Army, Supreme Allied Commander Allied Expeditionary Force, European Theatre of Operations
-Winston S. Churchill, Prime Minister of UK
-Captain Sir Basil Liddell-Hart, eminant UK historian
-Admiral W.D Leahy, Join Chiefs of Staff
Pretty much so that the fingers are pointed to these policy makers but of course it leads to only speculations on what really happened behind the scenes.

Good stuff though.;) :king:
 
This goes against everything I have ever heard. Also, how come some American Citizens got cancer from radiation received from observing atomic bomb tests after WWII. They weren't warned by the government any more than the Japanese were. I'm sorry I don't have a link, but I remember seeing it on 60 Minutes.
Guh, sorry, I had a brain fart.
The incidents I was thinking of were actually post Hiroshima, marginally, notably the Slotin experimetn and the death of Harry Daghlian.
 
Ifanyone's interestedc, my paper is here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=131035&d=1151400590
(I mintain all intellectual copyright etc, just so noone can pass it off as their own)

I think a bigger crime than the bombs was the complete negligence of the US government to follow through on a Europe-deNazification style purging of Japan.
Though a number of people were executed (some completely unjustifiably), the Imperial army detachment equivilent to Megele's, who would practice live vivisection of civilians and POWs, gassings, medical experiments etc. were promised complete immunity in exchange for the results of the tests.
Also, many high officials were never really purged, and no sense of defeat, or wrong had been instilled in the Japanese.

In fact, many of the people with blood on their hands went on to form Japan's Liberal Democratic party, which is in power today, a major factor why Japan has never actually ackowledged the invasion of MAnchuria, Rape of Nanjing, concentration camps, death marches, etc., why young Japanese are not taught this in school, and why some of viles people in histtory are still considered as war heroes, and any criticism of them in dishonouring their memories.
 
So politicians and the generals who ran the war are unreliable sources? Are you really that delusional, when it says on the record it means they officially stated and were prepared to be documented saying these statements and in fact were, this book was widely acclaimed by historians, and nominated for an award, are historians in the habit of nominating books that have unreliable sources? Honestly your just lying to yourself, if you think that presidents and admirals and field marshal in command of the war are lying?

The link above is not the same link, and it is not an amazon review, it is a news story from the Miami Herald:rolleyes:

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1214-06.htm

Sorry I missed the link, here it is.

Obviously you don't understand the media term on the record, if you did we wouldn't be having this discussion.
"Common Dreams - Breaking News & View for the Progressive Community". Good grief Sidhe. I give up - when you're ready to provide actual evidence of your claims, instead of posting to anonymous Amazon reviews or biased liberal websites, let me know. Until then, I'm not going to debate with you on this subject anymore.

You need to learn the definition of credible, man.
 
Er how does presenting as a matter of public record, people directly involved with the decision equate to editorialising? They either said they thought it was unnecessary or they didn't? Sorry you've lost me there?Eisenhower, Admiral Nimitz, the Admiral of the Pacific Fleet, The Field Marshal of the US army,Winston Churchill; are we assuming they lied or were on the take from the author?

It's well known that some of these people felt the bombing to be not necessary. But isn't the opinion of the Japanese government more important than what some Allies sat around thinking before they did it?

Personally, I don't give a rat's butt what Eisenhower thought about the atomic bombing, I'm more interested in the fact that the Japanese government surrended after the bombing, and I believe that what Elrohir posted was that the Emperor addressed the country on radio and mentioned a new terrible bomb by the Americans as one of the reasons for surrender.

But really, based on some of the things you've said here, I don't think you're interested in the truth, you seem to be interested in painting this as a black and white issue with no middle ground, and apparently all the Americans and Australians are being fed propaganda while the good British subjects know the Truth. Am I misreading you? As .Shane. already said, this is a complex issue, and oversimplifying it won't get you anywhere.

Guh, sorry, I had a brain fart.
The incidents I was thinking of were actually post Hiroshima, marginally, notably the Slotin experimetn and the death of Harry Daghlian.

But to clarify, radiation was known to be dangerous before the atomic bombings. But our knowledge at the time was much more limited, and the effects of a fission weapon are now better (although perhaps still not really that well...) understood. Much (most?) of our current knowledge comes from studies involving Hiroshima survivors.
 
Well it's not exactly a controversial idea, in fact many Europeans and others believe it obviously, if the polls are anything to go by, and as said Japanese communiques show they were willing to concede with only the most minimal demands, where as Truman would only accept unconditional surrender. Since we know Churchill advised him to edit the treaty to include the demands of the Japanese, ie an emperor who retained his powers(albeit they were discretionary anyway and pretty much non existent) I think it's hardly controversial at all, given what I have seen that maintains the contrary.

And I can as easily suggest it is you who can't handle the truth, no truth teller you!

"Common Dreams - Breaking News & View for the Progressive Community". Good grief Sidhe. I give up - when you're ready to provide actual evidence of your claims, instead of posting to anonymous Amazon reviews or biased liberal websites, let me know. Until then, I'm not going to debate with you on this subject anymore.

You need to learn the definition of credible, man.

How is the word of All your top brass contraversial or biased?

And how is the book not a good source? It is widely critically acclaimed, no the reason you don't want to debate is because you have nothing to say, ie what you have presented has no documentary evidence it's just opinion, where as the on the record views of the worlds leaders are more concrete. Read non-coms essay then, probably has a whole slew of credible references also, or is that something akin to blasphemy to suggest you read further?
 
How is the word of All your top brass contraversial or biased?
Are you being purposefully dense? We only have the word of anonymous Amazon reviews and liberal websites on that. Show me actual, reliable quotes on this from even a remotely credible website, and maybe we can debate - but as it is, all you're doing is posting something from a completely unreliable source, then complaining when I don't trust it. Unsubstantiated claims made by anonymous posters on Amazon isn't proof Sidhe.

Give me some credible evidence man, I can't debate with you if all you're going to supply to prove your point is unreliable.
 
Are you being purposefully dense? We only have the word of anonymous Amazon reviews and liberal websites on that. Show me actual, reliable quotes on this from even a remotely credible website, and maybe we can debate - but as it is, all you're doing is posting something from a completely unreliable source, then complaining when I don't trust it. Unsubstantiated claims made by anonymous posters on Amazon isn't proof Sidhe.

Give me some credible evidence man, I can't debate with you if all you're going to supply to prove your point is unreliable.

The book is what we're talking about not the web site? Can you show me where and I have provided a synopsis from the author itself from the Miami tribune- where exactly his claims are false, au contraire it is you who is being dense.

This is the problem you need to debunk all his claims FYI again:- why is the Miami Herald a liberal paper? And even if it is how does it make the views of the books author wrong? For all you know he's a neo-con. Someones political leanings do not mean that their claims are false, otherwise all your presidents from day 1 have been guilty of spouting nothing but political lies.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1214-06.htm

Published on Sunday, December 14, 2003 by the Miami Herald.
Enola Gay: Was Using the Bomb Necessary?
by Gar Alperovitz


Tomorrow's opening by the Smithsonian Institution of an exhibit featuring the Enola Gay, the B-29 Superfortress that dropped the first atomic bomb on Hiroshima in 1945, has occasioned the protest of hundreds of prominent scholars, writers and religious leaders. The reason is that the plane is being put forward with no mention of the huge number of civilians killed at Hiroshima (and subsequently at Nagasaki), and no acknowledgment of the ongoing domestic and worldwide controversy over the use of the atomic bomb. Instead, Air and Space Museum Director General John ''Jack'' Dailey has put the emphasis elsewhere -- on the plane ``in all of its glory as a magnificent technological achievement.''

News of the century

In 1999, a distinguished group of journalists deemed the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki the most important news event of the 20th century. A recent poll found that more Americans age 30-39 disapprove than approve of the bombings by a margin of 50 percent to 45 percent -- with almost as many (49 percent to 46 percent) also disapproving in the 18-29 age group. One of the main reasons why controversy still persists after almost 60 years is that, contrary to the conventional wisdom, there is very little evidence that top U.S. military leaders at the time believed that the atomic bomb was needed to end the war without a costly invasion. Indeed, quite the opposite appears to be true.

Adm. William D. Leahy, President Truman's chief of staff and the man who presided over meetings of both the U.S. chiefs of staff and the combined U.S.-British chiefs of staff, minced few words. Seven weeks before Hiroshima, his diary shows that he believed that the war could be ended in a manner that achieved all U.S. security aims.

`This barbarous weapon'

In his memoirs, the conservative admiral wrote: ``[T]he use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender. . . . n being the first to use it, we . . . adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.''

Among the many other top World War II leaders who are on record as stating that the bomb was unnecessary are the commanding general of the U.S. Army Air Forces, Henry H. ''Hap'' Arnold; Fleet Adm. Chester W. Nimitz, commander-in-chief of the Pacific Fleet; Adm. William F. Halsey Jr., commander of the U.S. Third Fleet; and the famous ''hawk'' who commanded the 21st Bomber Command, Maj. Gen. Curtis E. LeMay. Army Chief of Staff Gen. George C. Marshall privately proposed that the bombs be dropped first on a military target such as a large naval base -- then, if that didn't work, that civilians be warned to leave before a city were targeted.

In his memoirs, President -- and former general -- Dwight D. Eisenhower reported the following reaction when Secretary of War Henry Stimson informed him that the atomic bomb would be used: ''During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression, and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives.'' In a 1963 interview, he put it bluntly: `` it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing.''

Notwithstanding these and many related facts, writers who defend the atomic bombings claim that a fanatical Japanese military leadership would have fought on, no matter what. It is, of course, impossible ever to fully resolve the historical dispute, because the bombs were, in fact, used. However, the evidence that we have strongly indicates that the Japanese emperor would likely have ended the war without the use of the atomic bomb -- just as so many U.S. military leaders believed.

Top U.S. leaders were advised as early as April 1945 -- four months before the bombing -- that a combination of the forthcoming declaration of war by the Soviet Union (which occurred almost simultaneously with the bombings) plus a clarification of the surrender terms for the emperor would almost certainly have brought an end to the fighting. With three months still to go before the November invasion could begin, the bomb could have been used if the shock of the Red Army attack failed to produce the expected results. When the Japanese Army general staff issued a statement on surrender, it explained that the existence of the nation was threatened ''as a result of Russia's entrance into the war.'' No mention was made of the atomic bomb.

International law

There are also ongoing questions of morality and international law involved in the Truman administration's decision to sacrifice large numbers of civilians. Former Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, who during World War II helped plan the bombing of Japanese cities as an aide to LeMay, recently observed that he and LeMay ''were behaving like war criminals.'' A prosecutor, McNamara says, would have argued that directly targeting cities was not proportional to our war aims, thus prohibited under international law. He quotes LeMay as stating explicitly: ``If we lose the war, we'll be tried as war criminals.''

An additional reason why the bombing is still controversial is that it was done in a way that minimized the possibility of what later came to be called ''arms-control'' measures. Instead of initiating some kind of ''confidence-building'' negotiation in advance with the Soviets (as many had advised at the time), a major goal was to demonstrate what Stimson called the ''master card'' of American diplomacy in as dramatic a way as possible.

The role of force

Obviously, the issues surrounding Hiroshima still bear on the role of force in foreign policy and on the possible future use of nuclear weapons. The Clinton administration explicitly threatened the possible use of nuclear weapons in Korea, and the Bush administration's policies in general -- to say nothing of its new more-aggressive nuclear posture -- open the clear possibility that such weapons will be used in questionable ways.

In light of these many considerations, however one judges the numerous still-debated issues concerning the bombing of Hiroshima, the Smithsonian as one of the nation's premier educational institutions had, and still has, an obligation to present all sides and all important aspects of the continuing controversy.

Gar Alperovitz, author of The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb, is Lionel R. Bauman Professor of political economy at the University of Maryland, College Park.
 
The book is what we're talking about not the web site? Can you show me where and I have provided a synopsis from the author itself from the Miami tribune- where exactly his claims are false, au contraire it is you who is being dense.

This is the problem you need to debunk all his claims FYI again:- why is the Miami Herald a liberal paper? And even if it is how does it make the views of the books author wrong? For all you know he's a neo-con.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1214-06.htm
How about you provide me an actual link to an actually reliable source? Is that so much to ask? I'm not asking again. No more LewRockWell, no more Common Dreams, no more Anonymous Amazon Reviews - I would like a CREDIBLE SOURCE, please. Don't even bother responding if your next post doesn't include a credible post, as I certainly won't be responding to anything else you say in this thread that doesn't include one.
 
How about you provide me an actual link to an actually reliable source? Is that so much to ask? I'm not asking again. No more LewRockWell, no more Common Dreams, no more Anonymous Amazon Reviews - I would like a CREDIBLE SOURCE, please. Don't even bother responding if your next post doesn't include a credible post, as I certainly won't be responding to anything else you say in this thread that doesn't include one.

The Miami herald and the author of the book are not credible? He's a professer of political economics, and a widely acclaimed author, how is his book not a credible source? Show me?

You can't just claim the source ie the book:The Decision to Use The Bomb is bunk without showing why, that's just lazy.

I notice only the views of those who supported its use are present here(see link below) Except for some cryptic stuff about concerns about gov policy? Why is that do you think? Since we know that many of your leaders are on record as saying it was pointless?

Among the many other top World War II leaders who are on record as stating that the bomb was unnecessary are the commanding general of the U.S. Army Air Forces, Henry H. ''Hap'' Arnold; Fleet Adm. Chester W. Nimitz, commander-in-chief of the Pacific Fleet; Adm. William F. Halsey Jr., commander of the U.S. Third Fleet; and the famous ''hawk'' who commanded the 21st Bomber Command, Maj. Gen. Curtis E. LeMay. Army Chief of Staff Gen. George C. Marshall privately proposed that the bombs be dropped first on a military target such as a large naval base -- then, if that didn't work, that civilians be warned to leave before a city were targeted.

In his memoirs, President -- and former general -- Dwight D. Eisenhower reported the following reaction when Secretary of War Henry Stimson informed him that the atomic bomb would be used: ''During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression, and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives.'' In a 1963 interview, he put it bluntly: `` it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing.''


On the record means there views were published in the media with there full accord. It also means they actually spoke those words.

Why aren't these views presented here?

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/bomb/large/index.php

http://www.doug-long.com/ga1.htm

THE DECISION TO USE THE ATOMIC BOMB:
PART I
by

Gar Alperovitz

Note: Discussion this past fall of my book THE DECISION TO USE THE ATOMIC BOMB, and of a review by John Bonnett, generated extended and often emotional comment. I was traveling during much of this period. I have waited until now for an opportunity to join the discussion in part for this reason, but mainly for another: In my judgment some of the most important issues concerning the Hiroshima decision cannot be properly addressed without confronting the complexity of the evidence problems involved--and, too, the porous nature of the available record. I had been informed that detailed discussions of certain aspects of these issues were about to be posted and could thus be referred to in my response. The unexpected cut-off of H-DIPLO debate (and the Christmas/semester break) forced a bit of delay. However, the postings have appeared on H-JAPAN (and are taken up below). Through the good offices of Doug Long they (and the earlier H- DIPLO responses) are also available at the following Home Page:

http://www.doug-long.com/index.htm

In addition, those who do not have easy access to the above may receive copies of materials referred to in the following response (and the response itself) by request at this e-mail address: leee@igc.apc.org

Finally, many of the materials are available on the new H-DIPLO web-site:

http://h-net2.msu.edu/~diplo/balp.htm

*

The following is addressed above all to scholars who wish to grapple with the difficult problems of evidence and interpretation at the heart of the Hiroshima question. Too often electronic debate becomes bogged down in quotation slinging or-- as some participants in the recent debate openly acknowledge-- moral crusading. Accordingly:

(1) I will not take up some of the more inflammatory, ad hominem or petty criticism which has appeared on H-DIPLO;

(2) A separate memorandum, by Sanho Tree (who directed the archival research for THE DECISION TO USE THE ATOMIC BOMB) has been prepared which uses the main postings to provide a guide to many of the issues, pro and con, raised in the debate to date. This includes far more detail on certain points than is possible in this response. In addition, the memorandum takes up gross misrepresentations which some participants seem bent on repeating even after their attention has been called to errors of fact. (The memorandum is also available at the above-cited Home Page and e-mail address.)

The overall goal is to attempt to move beyond increasingly sterile and time-consuming aspects of the current discussion--and to provide sufficient information to researchers, history teachers, and graduate students and undergraduates so that they can make informed judgments on the evidentiary questions for themselves. Our hope is that the materials will be of particular use to those teaching undergraduate and graduate courses which deal with the issue.

Given the amount of space devoted to postings by various critics, and the amount of material which must be dealt with, the following response has been organized into sections which will appear during a four-day period beginning today. Parts I, II and III deal with major themes of THE DECISION and the larger historic controversy. Part IV takes up certain additional issues involved in the debate.

*

I: CONTEXT. The central issues raised in several postings during last fall's debate--and, indeed, in connection with the Hiroshima bombing in general--are: (1) whether there were other ways to end the war without accepting the enormous costs of an invasion; (2) whether this was understood at the time.

The tone and argument of some of last fall's postings seemed to indicate that those writing believed it outrageous to suggest the bombings were unnecessary. Some went so far as to impugn motives and professional integrity, and a level of anger and venom quite unusual in serious scholarly discussion appeared regularly in the postings of one or two participants. Some postings also betrayed a lack of information on the general state of the professional debate. This was not true of all of the contributions, of course. Indeed, many raised important and insightful points. To put the central issues in perspective at the outset, however, let me simply note the following:

(A) One of the earliest and most respected students of the issue was Herbert Feis. Not only was Feis an important scholar, but as a former Special Assistant to Secretary of War Stimson (and other Cabinet members as well), he had privileged access to inside information and opinions. Here is one critical judgment of this leading scholar's 1961 book JAPAN SUBDUED: THE ATOMIC BOMB AND THE END OF THE WAR IN THE PACIFIC:

y far the easiest [question] to answer, is whether it was ESSENTIAL to use the bomb in order to compel the Japanese to surrender on our terms within a few months. It was not ... There can hardly be a well-grounded dissent from the conclusion reached by the members of the U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey ... "that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."

Feis subsequently eliminated any shred of ambiguity from this assessment on the basis of further research and reflection. When he revised his 1961 language in his 1966 book [THE ATOMIC BOMB AND THE END OF WORLD WAR II], he made the question tougher-- and the answer more explicit. Instead of asking whether the bomb was essential to compel "surrender on our terms within a few months," he now clarified that he meant "before [Japan] was invaded." And instead of the formulation "There can hardly be," he now wrote: "There CANNOT be a well-grounded dissent from the conclusion reached as early as 1945 by members of the U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey ...." [Emphasis added; THE DECISION, p. 645.]

One may disagree with such judgments, of course, or with the conclusions of the Strategic Bombing Survey itself; and, in the end, Feis came to feel that the decision made by the men he was so close to should nonetheless not be criticized. However, Feis's judgment on the central issue has for decades helped serious scholars establish some of the lines of legitimate debate (and, implicitly, of informed and uninformed criticism as well). Moreover, as we shall see in PART II, Feis's ultimate position on the most important issue of interpretation came extremely close to that of THE DECISION.

(B) A full-scale review of the modern literature concerning the central issues was published in DIPLOMATIC HISTORY in early 1990. Here is its conclusion:

Careful scholarly treatment of the records and manuscripts opened over the past few years has greatly enhanced our understanding of why the Truman administration used atomic weapons against Japan. Experts continue to disagree on some issues, but critical questions have been answered. The consensus among scholars is that the bomb was not needed to avoid an invasion of Japan and to end the war within a relatively short time. IT IS CLEAR THAT ALTERNATIVES TO THE BOMB EXISTED AND THAT TRUMAN AND HIS ADVISERS KNEW IT. [Emphasis added; DIPLOMATIC HISTORY, Vol. 14, No. 1, p. 110.]

The writer is not a revisionist; he is J. Samuel Walker, Chief Historian of the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission. Again, one may challenge Walker's reading of the literature as of that date, but the notion that to argue the bomb was not needed and that this was understood at the time is somehow outrageous--as some of the postings angrily suggest--is simply not in keeping with the conclusions of many, many studies.

(C) Related to the problem of tone is the fact that historically this issue was not always so polarized, nor was it always seen as a liberal-versus-conservative matter--and in my view it should not be seen as such now. Indeed, an important point underscored in THE DECISION is that early on many leading American conservatives were more concerned about the ethical issues involved than liberals. Again, simply to put the matter in perspective at the outset, we may note President Herbert Hoover's comment on hearing news of the bombings: "the use of the atomic bomb, with its indiscriminate killing of women and children, revolts my soul." [THE DECISION, p. 459.]

Similarly, ten days after the bombing David Lawrence, the conservative owner and editor of the UNITED STATES NEWS (soon to change its name to U.S. NEWS AND WORLD REPORT) published a strongly worded two-page editorial:

Military necessity will be our constant cry in answer to criticism, but it will never erase from our minds the simple truth that we, of all civilized nations, though hesitating to use poison gas, did not hesitate to employ the most destructive weapon of all times indiscriminately against men, women and children. [THE DECISION, p. 438.]

Again, William Buckley's NATIONAL REVIEW--commenting on a statement by President Truman in 1958--observed:

... the question that must be at the back of the minds of the people of Hiroshima, and that ought to haunt Harry Truman: "Was it REALLY necessary? Might a mere demonstration of the bomb, followed by an ultimatum, have turned the trick?"

If there is a satisfactory answer to that question, the people of Hiroshima AND the people of the United States have a right to hear it. [THE DECISION, p. 566.]

One could easily go on. (See, for instance, Uday Mohan, H- DIPLO, Oct. 3, 1996.)

II: MILITARY NECESSITY. Centrally related to all of this is information we now have concerning the views of top World War II American military leaders. In this connection it is also important to note at the outset that the recent debate, like much traditional literature, has been characterized by a continued unwillingness to confront some of the most significant modern evidence.

The issue of what U.S. military leaders felt and advised occupies four chapters of THE DECISION. A fundamental claim of those who reject views like those cited above is that the use of the atomic bomb was a matter of military necessity. President Truman himself repeatedly stated that he made the atomic bomb decision because his military advisers told him it was absolutely essential to do so. [THE DECISION, pp. 516-8, 521.]

If so, one would expect to find evidence of this--both at the time and after-the-fact.

(A) The rather stark truth, however, is that with one very "iffy" exception [THE DECISION, pp. 358-65] virtually all the important high-level World War II military leaders who had access to the relevant top secret information are on record as stating that the use of the atomic bomb was not a matter of military necessity. Indeed, many repeatedly, forcefully and consistently stated positions which in today's parlance would be termed strongly "revisionist."

An important contention of THE DECISION is that this fact can no longer be ignored or swept under the rug on the basis of one or another speculative theory as to why all these men would say what they did--and say it so regularly and so often, both privately and publicly, even while President Truman held office and was in position to decide issues of great importance to the various services:

Earlier in the postwar era most of the military statements were derived from various memoir accounts. However, we now have information from many, many sources, both private and public, which corroborates the fact that such military leaders simply did not agree with the official rationale for the bombings. Among the sources are internal military history interviews, letters, public interviews, diaries, speeches, statements by family members, statements by staff members, etc. Some of the evidence is familiar to many; some is less well known. Since the issue is so important and so poorly understood, let me reproduce a sampling of the (old and new) material presented in THE DECISION:

* In his memoirs Admiral William D. Leahy, the President's Chief of Staff--and the top official who presided over meetings of both the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Combined U.S.-U.K. Chiefs of Staff--minced few words:

[T]he use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender. . . .

n being the first to use it, we . . . adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children. [THE DECISION, p. 3.]

* The commanding general of the U.S. Army Air Forces, Henry H. "Hap" Arnold, gave a strong indication of his views in a public statement only eleven days after Hiroshima was attacked. Asked on August 17 by a NEW YORK TIMES reporter whether the atomic bomb caused Japan to surrender, Arnold said:

The Japanese position was hopeless even before the first atomic bomb fell, because the Japanese had lost control of their own air. [THE DECISION, p. 334.]

In his 1949 memoirs Arnold observed that "it always appeared to us that, atomic bomb or no atomic bomb, the Japanese were already on the verge of collapse." [THE DECISION, p. 334.]

* Arnold's deputy, Lieutenant General Ira C. Eaker, summed up his understanding this way in an internal military history interview:

Arnold's view was that it [the dropping of the atomic bomb] was unnecessary. He said that he knew the Japanese wanted peace. There were political implications in the decision and Arnold did not feel it was the military's job to question it. [THE DECISION, p. 335.]

Eaker reported that Arnold told him:

When the question comes up of whether we use the atomic bomb or not, my view is that the Air Force will not oppose the use of the bomb, and they will deliver it effectively if the Commander in Chief decides to use it. But it is not necessary to use it in order to conquer the Japanese without the necessity of a land invasion. [THE DECISION, p. 335.]

* On September 20, 1945 the famous "hawk" who commanded the Twenty-First Bomber Command, Major General Curtis E. LeMay (as reported in THE NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE):

said flatly at one press conference that the atomic bomb "had nothing to do with the end of the war." He said the war would have been over in two weeks without the use of the atomic bomb or the Russian entry into the war. [THE DECISION, p. 336.]

The text of the press conference provides these details:

LEMAY: The war would have been over in two weeks without the Russians entering and without the atomic bomb.

THE PRESS: You mean that, sir? Without the Russians and the atomic bomb?
. . .
LEMAY: The atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all. [THE DECISION, p. 336.]

* Personally dictated notes found in the papers of former Ambassador to the Soviet Union Averell Harriman describe a private 1965 dinner with General Carl "Tooey" Spaatz, who in July 1945 commanded the U.S. Army Strategic Air Force (USASTAF) and was subsequently chief of staff of the U.S. Air Force. Also with them at dinner was Spaatz's one-time deputy commanding general at USASTAF, Frederick L. Anderson. Harriman PRIVATELY noted:

Both men . . . felt Japan would surrender without use of the bomb, and neither knew why the second bomb was used. [THE DECISION, p. 337.]

Harriman's private notes also recall his own understanding:

I know this attitude is correctly described, because I had it from the Air Force when I was in Washington in April '45. [THE DECISION, p. 337.]

* On the 40th Anniversary of the bombing former President Richard M. Nixon reported that:

[General Douglas] MacArthur once spoke to me very eloquently about it, pacing the floor of his apartment in the Waldorf. He thought it a tragedy that the Bomb was ever exploded. MacArthur believed that the same restrictions ought to apply to atomic weapons as to conventional weapons, that the military objective should always be limited damage to noncombatants. . . . MacArthur, you see, was a soldier. He believed in using force only against military targets, and that is why the nuclear thing turned him off. . . . [THE DECISION, p. 352.]

* The day after Hiroshima was bombed MacArthur's pilot, Weldon E. Rhoades, noted in his diary:

General MacArthur definitely is appalled and depressed by this Frankenstein monster [the bomb]. I had a long talk with him today, necessitated by the impending trip to Okinawa. . . . [THE DECISION, p. 350.]

* Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the Pacific Fleet, in a public address at the Washington Monument two months after the bombings stated:

The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace before the atomic age was announced to the world with the destruction of Hiroshima and before the Russian entry into the war. . . .The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military standpoint, in the defeat of Japan. . . . [THE DECISION, p. 329; see additionally THE NEW YORK TIMES, October 6, 1945.]

* Admiral William F. Halsey, Jr., Commander U.S. Third Fleet, stated publicly in 1946:

The first atomic bomb was an unnecessary experiment. . . . It was a mistake to ever drop it. . . . [the scientists] had this toy and they wanted to try it out, so they dropped it. . . . It killed a lot of Japs, but the Japs had put out a lot of peace feelers through Russia long before. [THE DECISION, p. 331.]

* In his "third person" autobiography (co-authored with Walter Muir Whitehill) the commander in chief of the U.S. Fleet and chief of Naval Operations, Ernest J. King, stated:

The President in giving his approval for these [atomic] attacks appeared to believe that many thousands of American troops would be killed in invading Japan, and in this he was entirely correct; but King felt, as he had pointed out many times, that the dilemma was an unnecessary one, for had we been willing to wait, the effective naval blockade would, in the course of time, have starved the Japanese into submission through lack of oil, rice, medicines, and other essential materials. [THE DECISION, p. 327.]

* Private interview notes taken by Walter Whitehill summarize King's feelings quite simply as: "I didn't like the atom bomb or any part of it." [THE DECISION, p. 329; see also pp. 327-329. See below for more on King's view.]

* In a 1985 letter recalling the views of Army Chief of Staff General George C. Marshall, former Assistant Secretary of War John J. McCloy elaborated on an incident that was

very vivid in my mind. . . . I can recall as if it were yesterday, [Marshall's] insistence to me that whether we should drop an atomic bomb on Japan was a matter for the President to decide, not the Chief of Staff since it was not a military question . . . the question of whether we should drop this new bomb on Japan, in his judgment, involved such imponderable considerations as to remove it from the field of a military decision. [THE DECISION, p. 364.]

* In a separate memorandum written the same year McCloy recalled: "General Marshall was right when he said you must not ask me to declare that a surprise nuclear attack on Japan is a military necessity. It is not a military problem." [THE DECISION, p. 364.]

There is a long-standing debate about whether or not General Eisenhower--as he repeatedly claimed--urged Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson (and possibly President Truman) not to use the atomic bomb. In interviews with his biographer, Stephen Ambrose, he was insistent that he urged his views to one or another of these men at the time. [THE DECISION, p. 358 n.] Quite apart from what he said at the time, there is no doubt, however, about his own repeatedly stated opinion on the central question:

* In his memoirs Eisenhower reported the following reaction when Secretary of War Stimson informed him the atomic bomb would be used:

During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. . . . [THE DECISION, p. 4.]

* Eisenhower made similar public and private statements on numerous occasions. He put it bluntly in a 1963 interview, stating quite simply: ". . . it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing." [THE DECISION, p. 356.] (Several of the occasions during which Eisenhower offered similar judgments are discussed at length in THE DECISION [pp. 352-358].)

(B) It is sometimes urged that there is no record of any of the military men directly advising President Truman not to use the atomic bomb--and that this must mean that they felt its use was justified at the time. However, this is speculation. The fact is there is also no record of military leaders advising President Truman TO USE THE BOMB:

We simply have little solid information one way or the other on what was said by top military leaders on the key question at the time: There are very few direct contemporaneous records on this subject. And there is certainly no formal recommendation that the atomic bomb be used by the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

On the other hand, what little contemporaneous evidence we do have strongly suggests that BEFORE the atomic bomb was used at least two of the four members of the Joint Chiefs did not believe that military considerations required the destruction of Japanese cities without advance warning. Here, for instance, is how General George C. Marshall put it in a discussion more than two months before Hiroshima was destroyed (McCloy memo, May 29, 1945):

... he thought these weapons might first be used against straight military objectives such as a large naval installation and then if no complete result was derived from the effect of that, he thought we ought to designate a number of large manufacturing areas from which the people would be warned to leave--telling the Japanese that we intend to destroy such centers.... Every effort should be made to keep our record of warning clear. We must offset by such warning methods the opprobrium which might follow from an ill-considered employment of such force. [THE DECISION, p. 53.]

The President's Chief of Staff, Admiral Leahy--the man who presided over meetings of the Joint Chiefs--noted in his diary of June 18, 1945 (seven weeks PRIOR TO the bombing of Hiroshima):

It is my opinion at the present time that a surrender of Japan can be arranged with terms that can be accepted by Japan and that will make fully satisfactory provisions for America's defense against future trans-Pacific aggression. [THE DECISION, p. 324.]

(Leahy also stated subsequently something which should be obvious--namely that the Chief of Staff regularly made his views known to the President. His well-documented comments in a meeting with the President urging assurances for the Emperor this same day--June 18--are only one indication of this. Although we have no records of their private conversations, we know that the two men met to discuss matters of state every morning at 9:45 a.m. [THE DECISION, pp. 324-6.])

There is also substantial, but less direct evidence (including some which seems to have come from President Truman himself) that General Arnold argued explicitly that the atomic bomb was not needed [THE DECISION, pp. 322-4; 335-7]--and as noted above, that Arnold instructed his deputy Lieutenant General Ira C. Eaker that although he did not wish to press the point, he did not believe the bomb was needed. As also noted above, in his memoirs Arnold stated that "it always appeared to us that, atomic bomb or no atomic bomb, the Japanese were already on the verge of collapse." [THE DECISION, p. 334.] (In this connection, as we shall discuss in Part III, it is commonly forgotten that by the time Hiroshima was bombed orders had already been given to alter targeting priorities so as to down-play city bombing. Although there were some difficulties in the field, the new priorities were on the verge of being moved into implementation as the war ended. [THE DECISION, p. 342-3.])
 
Well it's not exactly a controversial idea, in fact many Europeans and others believe it obviously, if the polls are anything to go by, and as said Japanese communiques show they were willing to concede with only the most minimal demands, where as Truman would only accept unconditional surrender. Since we know Churchill advised him to edit the treaty to include the demands of the Japanese, ie an emperor who retained his powers(albeit they were discretionary anyway and pretty much non existent) I think it's hardly controversial at all, given what I have seen that maintains the contrary.

And I can as easily suggest it is you who can't handle the truth, no truth teller you!

Like I've said, the surrender conditions should have been much harsher on the Japanese, but the US had used its negotiation tools up and wanted to end the war. And I maintain that the opinions of Eisenhower and Churchill, though interesting to note, don't play into this discussion; we don't know what might have happened had the fission weapons not been used, and claiming that speculation is the only truth is irresponsible at best.

As a side note, polls don't mean jack. So Europe didn't think dropping the Bombs was the right idea and America and Australia do? So what? Effects define the best course of action, certainly not popular opinion. Popular opinion is what got us into Iraq, and it's what's messing us up while we're there.

And if I lied at any point, please point it out, I'd like to see where!

:)
 
Like I've said, the surrender conditions should have been much harsher on the Japanese, but the US had used its negotiation tools up and wanted to end the war. And I maintain that the opinions of Eisenhower and Churchill, though interesting to note, don't play into this discussion; we don't know what might have happened had the fission weapons not been used, and claiming that speculation is the only truth is irresponsible at best.

As a side note, polls don't mean jack. So Europe didn't think dropping the Bombs was the right idea and America and Australia do? So what? Effects define the best course of action, certainly not popular opinion. Popular opinion is what got us into Iraq, and it's what's messing us up while we're there.

And if I lied at any point, please point it out, I'd like to see where!

:)

Check out my last post, it was edited several times, at least you can't accuse me of being lazy in presenting the issue.:)

Lie is such a strong word, mislead is better :)

In general if I could suggest people read the debate on this matter presented above before replying?
 
Joining the thread late without reading it all but anyway..

Beileve it or not, this was probably less bloody. However we could of bombed some rural area or in the mountains of japan and they would of gotten the point.

If we tried a mainland invasion we would of been destroyed, or we would have to kill every japanese person basically. They were not going to surrender.

Its sort of a cultural thing. The japanese factions throughout history would die in battle and it was dishonorable to
surrender ever.

If we tried to blockade them and force them to surrender through lack of supplies, they would starve. Japan gets much of its food from the sea.

So either way lots of japanese would die.
 
On the record means there views were published in the media with there full accord. It also means they actually spoke those words.

Why aren't these views presented here?

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/bomb/large/index.php
A credible source at last!

It's very interesting, but I think it more supports my position than yours, even though it focuses more on the military, than political side of the affair. Thanks for the link, though, I'm bookmarking this. Very interesting.

According to the minutes of a meeting held at the White House in June of 1945, it was General of the Army (5-star general) George Marshall's opinion that "the operation against Kyushu was the only course to pursue. He felt that air power alone was not sufficient to put the Japanese out of the war." This is before the atomic bomb was on the table. According to this same document, American forces were expected to have at least the same number of casualties taking Kyushu alone as at Okinawa - 35%. As they were planning on using 766,700 troops in this attack, that translates to 268,345 US casualties alone, which is more than were directly killed by both atomic blasts.

Clearly, an invasion of all of Japan would have been horrendously costly both for America and Japan, and more would have died than in the atomic bombings. Now, I know you are thinking that all Japan wanted was a guarantee that the Emperor would remain in power, and so this all doesn't matter. As far as I can tell, that is not the case. I posted a link earlier stating this, and here's another. (Truman rejects an effort by Secretary of War Henry Stimson and others to include a guarantee that Japan's imperial system will be allowed to remain intact. He bases his decision on radio intelligence that indicates such a guarantee would not be enough to obtain surrender.)

I've provided two reasonably credible sources, and I can probably scrounge up more, showing that Japan would not have surrendered had the US only offered to allow the monarchy to remain. If you disagree, and believe that was all they wanted, the burden is now upon you to show otherwise.

Also, do you agree that if Japan would not have surrendered without an agreement that would have allowed Japan to handle her own disarmament, and try her own war criminals, and keep all foreign troops off Japanese soil as well as protecting the Emperor, then the atomic bombings would have been justified rather than invade?

More evidence.....

Led by General Korechika Anami, the war minister, the army and navy chiefs of staff effectively won the day. They wanted to lay down their own conditions for ending the war. These included the protection and retention of the Emperor, a token Allied occupation that excluded Tokyo, and Japan's right to disarm its military forces and to conduct any war crimes trials of its own people that it deemed necessary.
.
Thus, since the council's decisions had to be made by consensus, Japan slammed the shutters on the window of opportunity opened by the Potsdam declaration.
 
Joining the thread late without reading it all but anyway..

Beileve it or not, this was probably less bloody. However we could of bombed some rural area or in the mountains of japan and they would of gotten the point.

If we tried a mainland invasion we would of been destroyed, or we would have to kill every japanese person basically. They were not going to surrender.

Its sort of a cultural thing. The japanese factions throughout history would die in battle and it was dishonorable to surrender ever.

You might want to read the thread, honestly a lot of ground has been covered, and your opinion is probably meaningless without at least knowing the pro con argument.
 
A credible source at last!

It's very interesting, but I think it more supports my position than yours, even though it focuses more on the military, than political side of the affair. Thanks for the link, though, I'm bookmarking this. Very interesting.

According to the minutes of a meeting held at the White House in June of 1945, it was General of the Army (5-star general) George Marshall's opinion that "the operation against Kyushu was the only course to pursue. He felt that air power alone was not sufficient to put the Japanese out of the war." This is before the atomic bomb was on the table. According to this same document, American forces were expected to have at least the same number of casualties taking Kyushu alone as at Okinawa - 35%. As they were planning on using 766,700 troops in this attack, that translates to 268,345 US casualties alone, which is more than were directly killed by both atomic blasts.

Clearly, an invasion of all of Japan would have been horrendously costly both for America and Japan, and more would have died than in the atomic bombings. Now, I know you are thinking that all Japan wanted was a guarantee that the Emperor would remain in power, and so this all doesn't matter. As far as I can tell, that is not the case. I posted a link earlier stating this, and here's another. (Truman rejects an effort by Secretary of War Henry Stimson and others to include a guarantee that Japan's imperial system will be allowed to remain intact. He bases his decision on radio intelligence that indicates such a guarantee would not be enough to obtain surrender.)

I've provided two reasonably credible sources, and I can probably scrounge up more, showing that Japan would not have surrendered had the US only offered to allow the monarchy to remain. If you disagree, and believe that was all they wanted, the burden is now upon you to show otherwise.

Also, do you agree that if Japan would not have surrendered without an agreement that would have allowed Japan to handle her own disarmament, and try her own war criminals, and keep all foreign troops off Japanese soil as well as protecting the Emperor, then the atomic bombings would have been justified rather than invade?

Both those sources are subject to bias, since one is Trumans own web site, and the other is based on it basically. No the onus is still on you, just quoting sources from government officials without debunking or indeed reading the entire debate posted above is not considered a good rebuke? You need to counter all The authors claims? Not just put up material as if it somehow mitigates all the on the record comments by Naval Admirals, generals, presidents etc. As far as I can see only Truman held to the view it was necessary and his dutiful mentor, debunk Nimitz, debunk Churchill, debunk Le may, de bunk the Admiral of the pacific fleet. De bunk Eisenhower and so on.

The onus is most definitely still on you.

The Truman library is about as credible as the Stalin library, come on :lol:

1. When he issued the Potsdam Proclamation in its final form the President's diary makes clear that he understood it was highly unlikely that it could be accepted by the Japanese. [THE DECISION, p. 303]

2. The President is on record at several points during the summer of 1945 indicating that he did not see insuperable political obstacles to modifying the surrender terms along the proposed lines. [THE DECISION, pp. 46, 67-72, 74-5, 78, 311, 417, 649-650; see below for further discussion.]

Thus, President Truman made changes in the Proclamation which made it all but impossible for Japan to accept the surrender demand it contained--and, at the same time, the evidence is that he personally did not believe offering the requisite assurances was politically impossible.

(B) The President was also advised--POSITIVELY--by men like Grew and Stimson of the positive significance of a change of terms. This is a slightly different but equally important point. Here is how Secretary of War Stimson put it to President Truman in a memorandum urging that a warning containing assurances for the Emperor be issued. The date is July 2, 1945, more than a month before Hiroshima was destroyed: I believe Japan is susceptible to reason in such a crisis to a much greater extent than is indicated by our current press and other current comment. [THE DECISION, p. 77.]

I think the Japanese nation has the mental intelligence and versatile capacity in such a crisis to recognize the folly of a fight to the finish and to accept the proffer of what will amount to an unconditional surrender; . . . [THE DECISION, p. 77.]

(C) In fact, President Truman was urged to modify the surrender terms on numerous occasions during the summer of 1945-- and by numerous people. What follows is a list of some of the (known) efforts. (For a discussion of the nuances of the various positions see references provided for the summary on pp. 298-301 of THE DECISION; see also Kathryn C. Morris, H-JAPAN, Nov. 9 and 10, 1996.) Direct approaches were made:

1. by Acting Secretary of State Grew on May 28, 1945;
2. by former President Herbert Hoover in a May 30, 1945 memorandum;
3. by Grew again on June 13, 1945;
4. by Counsel to the President Samuel I. Rosenman on June 17, 1945;
5. by Grew once more on June 18, 1945;
6. by Assistant Secretary of War McCloy on June 18, 1945;
7. by Admiral Leahy on June 18, 1945;
8. by the State Department in a formal recommendation of June 30, 1945;
9. by Under Secretary of the Navy Ralph Bard on July 1, 1945 (it appears from certain evidence);
10. by Secretary of War Stimson (with the support of Secretary of the Navy Forrestal and Grew) on July 2, 1945;
11. by Stimson again on July 16, 1945;
12. by Churchill on July 18, 1945;
13. by the Joint Chiefs of Staff on July 18, 1945;
14. by Stimson on July 24, 1945.
 
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