Was it necessary to drop the bomb?

Was it necessary to drop the bomb?


  • Total voters
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  • Poll closed .
Both those sources are subject to bias, since one is Trumans own web site, and the other is based on it basically. No the onus is still on you, just quoting sources from government officials without debunking or indeed reading the entire debate posted above is not considered a good rebuke? You need to counter all The authors claims? Not just put up material as if it somehow mitigates all the on the record comments by Naval Admirals, generals, presidents etc. As far as I can see only Truman held to the view it was necessary and his dutiful mentor, debunk Nimitz, debunk Churchill, debunk Le may, de bunk the Admiral of the pacific fleet. De bunk Eisenhower and so on.

The onus is most definitely still on you.

The Truman library is about as credible as the Stalin library, come on :lol:
I've provided sources from the US Department of Energy, PBS, the Truman Library and the International Herald Tribune. You've provided anonymous Amazon reviews and LewRockWell.com. There's no comparison.

The Truman Library is credible so far as showing what they knew, and what they believed at the time.

Just tell me something: Is the IHT also run by the US government? Good grief Sidhe....

And I noticed that you never answered my question: If the option was invade or drop the bomb, which it was, do you accept that the nukes were the morally superior option?
 
I've provided sources from the US Department of Energy, PBS, the Truman Library and the International Herald Tribune. You've provided anonymous Amazon reviews and LewRockWell.com. There's no comparison.

The Truman Library is credible so far as showing what they knew, and what they believed at the time.

Just tell me something: Is the IHT also run by the US government? Good grief Sidhe....

And I noticed that you never answered my question: If the option was invade or drop the bomb, which it was, do you accept that the nukes were the morally superior option?

You read my links and debunk them I'll answer yours, that's how it works, until you do that it's just more talking out of your hat, you have the debate, it is accessible from my link, you have the authors response; you can't just ignore it, you have to present a counter argument, you haven't therefore, I see no need to respond until you do.

No I've provided links from the author himself of the book, a well respected author and nominated for an award by historians, I might add, you can laugh all you want but your ignoring credible links and I'm afraid that means it's you who is being laughed at.

Morally superior now that just sickens me. Do you have any idea of the sheer suffering caused, man your a sick individual to claim morals about something that is an accepted war crime. It's morally right to kill non combatants, men women the old and children? is that what your saying?
 
You read my links and debunk them I'll answer yours, that's how it works, until you do that it's just more talking out of your hat, you have the debate, it is accessible from my link, you have the authors response; you can't just ignore it, you have to present a counter argument, you haven't therefore, I see no need to respond until you do.

No I've provided links from the author himself of the book, a well respected author and nominated for an award by historians, I might add, you can laugh all you want but your ignoring credible links and I'm afraid that means it's you who is being laughed at.
I already told you several times why every link you've posted so far isn't credible. When you decide to post a credible link or respond to the arguments I've made many, many times, let me know. And when you decide to stop throwing hissy fits and acting like you're two years old and desperately in need of a diaper change, let me know that too. I won't hold my breathe, though.
 
I already told you several times why every link you've posted so far isn't credible. When you decide to post a credible link or respond to the arguments I've made many, many times, let me know. And when you decide to stop throwing hissy fits and acting like you're two years old and desperately in need of a diaper change, let me know that too. I won't hold my breathe, though.

Because you say it isn't or because you can debunk it, sadly you are without credibility, and opinion and biased web sites are not credible, actually do me the courtesy of reading the links, then respond and debunk and I'll do you the same courtesy, your not actually making a point here, your just putting your fingers in your ears and saying, Admiral Nimitz was a liar, Eisenhower lied, General x lied, the supreme commander of the pacific fleet lied. It's honestly quite pathetic, and I mean no disrespect but it is pretty lame. Show me the money. Otherwise your just talking out of your hat. Why did Nimitz lie and go on the record as saying it was pointless? Why did Eisenhower? Why did Churchill try so hard to get Truman to change his mind, in fact why did all the top brass from a-z? why did General Le May? Show me, are they stooges for the liberal media? Is that what you're saying?
 
I have a couple of issues with the excerpt, but parts of it, and not as a whole. Firstly, to hear General MacArthur complain about nuclear weapons when he wanted to use many of them in the Korean Conflict seems a bit strange, his opposition to using nuclear weapons sounds hollow at least. And secondly, the excerpt from the book makes it sound as if the scientists wanted the Bomb to be dropped and the politicians and generals didn't. I'm quite frankly surprised at this allegation, considering the scientists' response to the Trinity Test; they were the only people who had seen a fission weapon explode, and they were stunned at its power. I remember the test director remarking afterward that "now we are all sons of *****es." The scientists were probably more (or at least as) opposed to using the weapons than anyone else.
 
Damn, the poll results are saddening.

I definitely think it was a terrible idea to drop the bomb. Japan was on the verge of surrender anyway.
 
Afew more points:

Sidhe said:
Well it's not exactly a controversial idea, in fact many Europeans and others believe it obviously, if the polls are anything to go by, and as said Japanese communiques show they were willing to concede with only the most minimal demands, where as Truman would only accept unconditional surrender. Since we know Churchill advised him to edit the treaty to include the demands of the Japanese, ie an emperor who retained his powers(albeit they were discretionary anyway and pretty much non existent) I think it's hardly controversial at all, given what I have seen that maintains the contrary.

Sidhe, the bold parts are untrue.

It is true that parts of the Japanese government were willing to offer a surrender based on the condition that the Emperor remained in power. However:

a-These were only one part of the Japanese government, not a majority. They were outnumbered by those who wanted to keep up the fight, and they did not represent the wishes of Japan. Even at the bitter end, after the two bombs had been dropped, only three of Hirohito's 'Big Six' wanted to offer surrender on the single term that the Emporer's power remain untouched. The other three wanted even stricter conditions.

Furthermore, intercepted and decoded communiqués indicate nothing more than speculation or discussion, carried out in secret. You will find that other communiqués called for nothing less than a fight to the bitter end, or a surrender only under certain, unrealistic, conditions. Intercepted communiqués can be useful clues, but ultimatley, actions speak louder than words.

b-While Hirohito often did bow to the wishes of his Council (the ‘Big Six’) and the military, he officially retained at all times supreme command over all of Japan, and it was to him that the Big Six turned when they could not decide on a course of action regarding surrender, after the nukes had been dropped.

Another point before I go:

Sidhe; I don’t think that the use of the nuclear bombs were nessesary to win the war either. It’s a matter of opinion, but you could argue that victory over Japan was inevitable as early as the Battle of Midway in 1942, or maybe even earlier, with or without the bombs. That is not to say that I don’t think that the bombs shortened the war, or that the bombs did not save lives.

I think you are missing this distinction.

The fact remains that the Japanese did not offer to surrender on the Allies, arguably generous, terms until after the bombs were dropped. In fact no offers were made at all until after the bombs were dropped.

I can see nothing in the sources that you posted that indicates that Japan would have surrendered if the Allies had stopped attacking in, for example, June or July 1945. Evidentally, further use of force, nuclear or conventional, was needed to convince the Japanese to finally offer an unconditional surrender.

And for the record, I'm not American, I'm British. ;)
 
If Americans would've really wanted an end without massacre, they would've demanded a conditional surrender.
 
I believe the bomb should have been used as it save american and japanense lives, american officals put the number of dead and casulties to 1 million and many millions of japanense
 
Considering we have offers for peace on terms favourable to us as early as 1944, I think its fair to say that no, dropping the bomb, and fighting for an entire year, was not neccessary.
 
It's irrelevant. The dead won't come back. The deed is done.

I see convincing arguments for both sides. However, now that the bomb has been dropped, and we've all seen how god awful it was, hopefully(:shifty:) we will never use it again.
 
I was not there and I certainly do not have all of the facts. My gut instinct says that it certainly ended the war quickly and saved more lives than it cost, but who knows? I could be wrong. I don't think anyone on this forum can honestly show me the math proving that it was either right or wrong.
 
Afew more points:



Sidhe, the bold parts are untrue.

It is true that parts of the Japanese government were willing to offer a surrender based on the condition that the Emperor remained in power. However:

a-These were only one part of the Japanese government, not a majority. They were outnumbered by those who wanted to keep up the fight, and they did not represent the wishes of Japan. Even at the bitter end, after the two bombs had been dropped, only three of Hirohito's 'Big Six' wanted to offer surrender on the single term that the Emporer's power remain untouched. The other three wanted even stricter conditions.

Furthermore, intercepted and decoded communiqués indicate nothing more than speculation or discussion, carried out in secret. You will find that other communiqués called for nothing less than a fight to the bitter end, or a surrender only under certain, unrealistic, conditions. Intercepted communiqués can be useful clues, but ultimatley, actions speak louder than words.

b-While Hirohito often did bow to the wishes of his Council (the ‘Big Six’) and the military, he officially retained at all times supreme command over all of Japan, and it was to him that the Big Six turned when they could not decide on a course of action regarding surrender, after the nukes had been dropped.

Another point before I go:

Sidhe; I don’t think that the use of the nuclear bombs were nessesary to win the war either. It’s a matter of opinion, but you could argue that victory over Japan was inevitable as early as the Battle of Midway in 1942, or maybe even earlier, with or without the bombs. That is not to say that I don’t think that the bombs shortened the war, or that the bombs did not save lives.

I think you are missing this distinction.

The fact remains that the Japanese did not offer to surrender on the Allies, arguably generous, terms until after the bombs were dropped. In fact no offers were made at all until after the bombs were dropped.

I can see nothing in the sources that you posted that indicates that Japan would have surrendered if the Allies had stopped attacking in, for example, June or July 1945. Evidentally, further use of force, nuclear or conventional, was needed to convince the Japanese to finally offer an unconditional surrender.

And for the record, I'm not American, I'm British. ;)

According to you, apparently the author cites communiques which say the opposite. So you just saying it isn't true is not that convincing. If you read the link and the debate he cites his sources, all you have is your opinion. Personally I'm more convinced by the sources provided. But then that's your look out, if you want to believe one set of sources over another, I can't really say much more, except like Elrohir your being intellectually dishonest, and essentially calling Winston Churchill and the Top American military brass and Eisenhower liars. Fine, pretty sad but fine that you dispute their word.

http://www.doug-long.com/quotes.htm

On May 28, 1945, Hoover visited President Truman and suggested a way to end the Pacific war quickly: "I am convinced that if you, as President, will make a shortwave broadcast to the people of Japan - tell them they can have their Emperor if they surrender, that it will not mean unconditional surrender except for the militarists - you'll get a peace in Japan - you'll have both wars over."

Richard Norton Smith, An Uncommon Man: The Triumph of Herbert Hoover, pg. 347.

On August 8, 1945, after the atomic bombing of Hiroshima, Hoover wrote to Army and Navy Journal publisher Colonel John Callan O'Laughlin, "The use of the atomic bomb, with its indiscriminate killing of women and children, revolts my soul."

quoted from Gar Alperovitz, The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb, pg. 635.

"...the Japanese were prepared to negotiate all the way from February 1945...up to and before the time the atomic bombs were dropped; ...if such leads had been followed up, there would have been no occasion to drop the [atomic] bombs."

- quoted by Barton Bernstein in Philip Nobile, ed., Judgment at the Smithsonian, pg. 142

Hoover biographer Richard Norton Smith has written: "Use of the bomb had besmirched America's reputation, he [Hoover] told friends. It ought to have been described in graphic terms before being flung out into the sky over Japan."

Richard Norton Smith, An Uncommon Man: The Triumph of Herbert Hoover, pg. 349-350.

In early May of 1946 Hoover met with General Douglas MacArthur. Hoover recorded in his diary, "I told MacArthur of my memorandum of mid-May 1945 to Truman, that peace could be had with Japan by which our major objectives would be accomplished. MacArthur said that was correct and that we would have avoided all of the losses, the Atomic bomb, and the entry of Russia into Manchuria."

~~~ELLIS ZACHARIAS
(Deputy Director of the Office of Naval Intelligence)

Based on a series of intelligence reports received in late 1944, Zacharias, long a student of Japan's people and culture, believed the Japan would soon be ripe for surrender if the proper approach were taken. For him, that approach was not as simple as bludgeoning Japanese cities:

"...while Allied leaders were immediately inclined to support all innovations however bold and novel in the strictly military sphere, they frowned upon similar innovations in the sphere of diplomatic and psychological warfare."

Ellis Zacharias, The A-Bomb Was Not Needed, United Nations World, Aug. 1949, pg. 29.

Zacharias saw that there were diplomatic and religious (the status of the Emperor) elements that blocked the doves in Japan's government from making their move:

"What prevented them from suing for peace or from bringing their plot into the open was their uncertainty on two scores. First, they wanted to know the meaning of unconditional surrender and the fate we planned for Japan after defeat. Second, they tried to obtain from us assurances that the Emperor could remain on the throne after surrender."

Ellis Zacharias, Eighteen Words That Bagged Japan, Saturday Evening Post, 11/17/45, pg. 17.

To resolve these issues, Zacharias developed several plans for secret negotiations with Japanese representatives; all were rejected by the U.S. government. Instead, a series of psychological warfare radio broadcasts by Zacharias was later approved. In the July 21, 1945 broadcast, Zacharias made an offer to Japan that stirred controversy in the U.S.: a surrender based on the Atlantic Charter. On July 25th, the U.S. intercepted a secret transmission from Japan's Foreign Minister (Togo) to their Ambassador to Moscow (Sato), who was trying to set up a meeting with the Soviets to negotiate an end to the war. The message referred to the Zacharias broadcast and stated:

"...special attention should be paid to the fact that at this time the United States referred to the Atlantic Charter. As for Japan, it is impossible to accept unconditional surrender under any circumstances, but we should like to communicate to the other party through appropriate channels that we have no objection to a peace based on the Atlantic Charter."

U.S. Dept. of State, Foreign Relations of the United States: Conference of Berlin (Potsdam) 1945, vol. 2, pg. 1260-1261.

But on July 26th, the U.S., Great Britain, and China publicly issued the Potsdam Proclamation demanding "unconditional surrender" from Japan. Zacharias later commented on the favorable Japanese response to his broadcast:

"But though we gained a victory, it was soon to be canceled out by the Potsdam Declaration and the way it was handled.

"Instead of being a diplomatic instrument, transmitted through regular diplomatic channels and giving the Japanese a chance to answer, it was put on the radio as a propaganda instrument pure and simple. The whole maneuver, in fact, completely disregarded all essential psychological factors dealing with Japan."

Zacharias continued, "The Potsdam Declaration, in short, wrecked everything we had been working for to prevent further bloodshed...

"Just when the Japanese were ready to capitulate, we went ahead and introduced to the world the most devastating weapon it had ever seen and, in effect, gave the go-ahead to Russia to swarm over Eastern Asia.

"Washington decided that Japan had been given its chance and now it was time to use the A-bomb.

"I submit that it was the wrong decision. It was wrong on strategic grounds. And it was wrong on humanitarian grounds."

Ellis Zacharias, How We Bungled the Japanese Surrender, Look, 6/6/50, pg. 19-21.

~~~RALPH BARD
(Under Sec. of the Navy)

On June 28, 1945, a memorandum written by Bard the previous day was given to Sec. of War Henry Stimson. It stated, in part:

"Following the three-power [July 1945 Potsdam] conference emissaries from this country could contact representatives from Japan somewhere on the China Coast and make representations with regard to Russia's position [they were about to declare war on Japan] and at the same time give them some information regarding the proposed use of atomic power, together with whatever assurances the President might care to make with regard to the [retention of the] Emperor of Japan and the treatment of the Japanese nation following unconditional surrender. It seems quite possible to me that this presents the opportunity which the Japanese are looking for.

"I don't see that we have anything in particular to lose in following such a program." He concluded the memorandum by noting, "The only way to find out is to try it out."

Memorandum on the Use of S-1 Bomb, Manhattan Engineer District Records, Harrison-Bundy files, folder # 77, National Archives (also contained in: Martin Sherwin, A World Destroyed, 1987 edition, pg. 307-308).

Later Bard related, "...it definitely seemed to me that the Japanese were becoming weaker and weaker. They were surrounded by the Navy. They couldn't get any imports and they couldn't export anything. Naturally, as time went on and the war developed in our favor it was quite logical to hope and expect that with the proper kind of a warning the Japanese would then be in a position to make peace, which would have made it unnecessary for us to drop the bomb and have had to bring Russia in...".

quoted in Len Giovannitti and Fred Freed, The Decision To Drop the Bomb, pg. 144-145, 324.

Bard also asserted, "I think that the Japanese were ready for peace, and they already had approached the Russians and, I think, the Swiss. And that suggestion of [giving] a warning [of the atomic bomb] was a face-saving proposition for them, and one that they could have readily accepted." He continued, "In my opinion, the Japanese war was really won before we ever used the atom bomb. Thus, it wouldn't have been necessary for us to disclose our nuclear position and stimulate the Russians to develop the same thing much more rapidly than they would have if we had not dropped the bomb."

War Was Really Won Before We Used A-Bomb, U.S. News and World Report, 8/15/60, pg. 73-75.

So all these people and there recorded testaments, in books penned by them, in diaries in newspapers, in journals and in interview were all lying, plenty more where that came from. Oh it's just a big conspiracy theory isn't it :shake:
 
If Americans would've really wanted an end without massacre, they would've demanded a conditional surrender.
I think that's unlikely. The US people were demanding an unconditional surrender from Japan. This was a country that stung their pride with a sneak attack, far more personal that the Germans! They also were a culture that they just didn't understand, and had minimal examples in their cities.

The war was started with the promise of kicking them until they called uncle. Nothing else would be accepted.

Interestingly, I wonder how many upper rank officers in the US military were actually disappointed by the surrender. The US military had been rolling over Japanese forces fairly successfully - island after island. What hadn't happed in the Japanese theater was the large scale battle that Europe had seen. I'm sure many officers in the Pacific front wanted that - massive tank battles, more area to maneuver, etc.

Something else to ponder - would continued fire-bombing had the same effect as the nuke? I think part of the shock was that a single plane did that damage. That's a pretty big shock to the psyche of any nation - that a single plane could destroy a large part of a city.

-- Ravensfire
 
So all these people and there recorded testaments, in books penned by them, in diaries in newspapers, in journals and in interview were all lying, plenty more where that came from. Oh it's just a big conspiracy theory isn't it :shake:

It's disappointing, Sidhe, that instead of arguing points with people, you're just racking up names of high-ups in the American military and saying, "these people agree with me, so I must be right!"

Because the more you do that, the more someone can just tell you that none of it matters because the President of the United States thought it was the thing to do (although he didn't want to drop a third bomb when one would become available a couple of weeks later).
 
It's disappointing, Sidhe, that instead of arguing points with people, you're just racking up names of high-ups in the American military and saying, "these people agree with me, so I must be right!"

Because the more you do that, the more someone can just tell you that none of it matters because the President of the United States thought it was the thing to do (although he didn't want to drop a third bomb when one would become available a couple of weeks later).

That's because no ones putting up anything but the propaganda, it's hard to debunk propaganda really isn't it, no sources, no corroboration, except Truman himself and that's hardly going to be reliable now is it? Besides I happen to think all the commanders and officials of the time are highly credible sources, something I've yet to see from anyone else. You say I'm not arguing the points, I can't, there isn't anything to argue with, just x is right because some web site says so, no Commander x saying it was just, no material: just it must be true because this web site confirms it, no historical books detailing the counter, no quotes from legitimate representatives of the time, nothing to see basically. Most people refuse to even read the links let alone comment on them.

I think I should have this moved to the history section, where people who know about the issue in depth can debunk it or not? No?

More from the source quoted. A lengthy debate, there's more if anyone's interested.

Just in case anyone's interested also, citation of sources is an important part of making a case, in order to express an argument you need to make clear why such a view is expressed and also link to relevant voiced opinions, not just Truman, I would like to see for example any of the leading figures of the time, extensively quoted, and citations given, now I have done this, the books and sources are all referenced in Aprowitz's work, if you want to claim them phony you need to show me where, because let's face it the historians that are anti him would certainly have done, but of course, these peopel really did say this in memoirs in the media etc. No offence to Truman but of course he's going to maintain it was necessary, otherwise he would have probably gone down as a war criminal.

Spoiler :
10/10: Eric Bergerud wrote: "On August 11, after a long and tortuous dispute, Hirohito forced his military to accept the Potsdam Declaration with the lone proviso that acceptance did not prejudice the "prerogatives of His Majesty as a Sovereign Ruler." If the Alperovitz thesis is correct, Byrnes and Truman should have been popping champagne corks at that very instant. . .Yet Byrnes held out for unconditional surrender. WHY??? The only reasonable conclusion is that Byrnes genuinely feared domestic uproar in the United States and probably despised Hirohito. Neither of these reasons fit the Alperovitz argument. Consequently, the author ignored the incident." Bergerud made a similar charge again on 10/28.

RESPONSE: First: Bergerud is simply dead wrong to say Alperovitz "ignored the incident" of August 10 [NOT August 11]. See pages 417-8 and 556-557. Second: All along American policy makers wanted to hold on to the RHETORIC of unconditional surrender for political purposes at home. On the other hand, all along it was also obvious that this issue could be finessed--by keeping the language but yielding on the key issue. Indeed, just such a posture began to emerge in early May--and then was held up for much of the summer. Furthermore, Alperovitz states quite clearly in a number of places (p.312; p649-50) that some political considerations cannot be ruled out. The central issue is whether they were strong enough to tie the President's hands. The evidence is quite clear: they were not.

In his memoir All in One Lifetime, Byrnes himself made no reference to possible "domestic uproar" in explaining his objection to the Japanese response. Rather, Byrnes argued that any deviation from unconditional surrender would cause further delay in obtaining Allied concurrence while the Soviets penetrated deeper into Manchuria. He wrote:

"timson urged that we agree to [the Japanese] proposal. While equally anxious to bring the war to an end, I had to disagree, pointing out that we had to get the assent of the British and Soviets; that we had their concurrence to the Potsdam Declaration with the words "unconditional surrender," and any retreat from those words now would cause much delay in securing their acquiescence. Since the Japanese were patently anxious to surrender, it was not the time for them to present conditions. The President requested me to draft a reply. I went to my office and wrote a message which met with his approval."

His assistant, Walter Brown, noted earlier in his diary entry of July 24 that "JFB [Byrnes] still hoping for time, believing after atomic bomb Japan will surrender and Russia will not get in so much on the kill, thereby being in a position to press for claims against China. . . ."

While Byrnes thought unconditional surrender was preferable it was certainly not determinative. Indeed, The Decision (p.309) cites a 1952 letter from Byrnes to Gen. Leslie Groves in which he acknowledged the necessity of utilizing the Emperor to obtain a surrender:

"When I became Secretary, I found in the Department a heated controversy, the left-wingers arguing that under no circumstances could we accept a surrender of the Japanese unless they agreed that Japan would no longer have an emperor. Without the emperor we would have found it a more difficult task to secure the surrender . . ."

Time and again Truman indicated that he had little problem with assurances for the emperor. Perhaps Mr. Bergerud had overlooked pages 417-418 of The Decision where Truman's lack of concern over this is spelled out. For the record, let me restate the key passage here:

Truman, on the advice of Leahy (supported by Stimson), favored immediate acceptance of the [Japanese August 10th] offer. However, Byrnes--who joined the White House gathering late--was irked with Leahy. (He [Leahy] still "thought he was Secretary of State, just as he was under Roosevelt, and [Byrnes] had to show him differently . . . ," he told [Walter] Brown.) Byrnes pointed out that "the big-3 [sic] said `unconditional surrender'"--and at Potsdam this was before the bomb and the Russian attack. Truman asked to see the statement. Brown's report continues:

JFB cited page, paragraph and line of Potsdam declaration. Forrestal spoke up for JFB's position. Truman swung over. . . . JFB had lunch with the president and said that the two of them had to decide the question and there could not be so many cooks. Truman agreed and JFB message as written was sent.

That Truman himself did not think this much of a problem is clear from his own response to the Japanese: He was ready to accept their position and had to be talked around and out of it. Indeed, on this matter the evidence is he did not even remember what had been said at Potsdam; he had to be reminded of it. It may also be that for a brief moment Byrnes thought he might get a bit more from the Japanese; but that this did not last very long at all is evidence that it was, if anything at all, a VERY brief moment. Finally, Truman is on record many times during the summer of 1945 indicating that he did not see political problems as critical. [See The Decision, pp. 45-46, 67-72, 74-5, 78, 311, 417, 649-650.]


CORDELL HULL AND UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER

12/4: Brian Villa wrote in H-Japan: "Needless to say no one on Alperovitz's long list of office holding surrender modification advocates took up the gauntlet for the reason Hull articulated so precisely, saying that any concession before the surrender would be perceived as "appeasement." Not even General Marshall who probably had the clout with Congress to carry it through took it up. Can anyone doubt that Cordell Hull, in tendering his advice was reflecting this broad background of public, Congressional and editorial opinion which he knew so well, on which-- as regards Congressional opinion on foreign affairs-- he was the Roosevelt administration's top, unchallengable, expert? With Hull opposed the concession was not going to happen anytime before a Japanese acceptance of unconditional surrender or something darn close to it. . . . How Dr. Alperovitz gets to where he wants to go is perfectly obvious. Since Hull advised against a concession on the Emperor and since the advice was given at about the time the Truman administration began to harden its position against a public concession, (the connection is explicit in the sources) Hull is a problem for the plausibility of the counter factual that concessions could easily have been made and thus Hiroshima avoided. To reestablish the counterfactual Hull must be rendered into a political nullity after which his removal from the historical stage, like so much rubble, comes easily. Alperovitz's demolition job on Hull's political weight occurs on pages 307-8, and they are, I submit, among the most unhistorical pages in that book. Here is how he begins this section: "The fact is, Hull was something of an anachronism who had rarely been taken seriously even during the Roosevelt era." Fact is ? The "fact is" that the last half of that sentence is one of Alperovitz's "howlers", to use a term familiar to any Cambridge University fellow. It is about as far off the mark as you can get. True, there was some personal animosity between FDR and Hull which grew over years. True, Hull was kept out of many issues by Roosevelt for the simple fact that once you asked Hull's advice there was nothing left to do but surrender, as FDR knew only too well. "Cwist!" Few in Washington ever dared cross Hull, and the few who did, did so at their mortal peril. If anyone survived unscathed a clash with Hull I do not know who that might be. Roosevelt himself never directly challenged Hull's savvy on Congressional opinion in Hull's area. The dying Roosevelt, nursing no small amount of resentment against Hull, nevertheless had himself dragged out to Bethesda Naval Hospital to pay court on the considerably less ill Hull.(President Truman also made a point of consulting Hull in the hospital on the first major foreign policy initiative of his presidency.) Take any recognized author on Roosevelt, from Sherwood to Dallek to whomever and they all pay tribute to Hull's unchallengable mastery of Congressional opinion and speak of Rooseveltian deference to that power. Hull was out of office of course when Truman took over, but there is no evidence that Truman ever slighted him. (Truman knew congressional realities as well or better than Roosevelt.) The evidence Alperovitz uses to dismiss the weight of Hull's intervention is all ex-post facto, off the point, and not worth a waterlogged tea leaf at the bottom of a cup."

RESPONSE: Brian Villa would have us believe that Hull's influence presented a brick wall for those who wanted to modify unconditional surrender. Note the various page references given in previous discussion on Truman and unconditional surrender; the contemporaneous evidence is very strong that President Truman himself did not believe political problems were critical. Villa fails to point out that Truman himself did not appear worried about such matters. Stimson's diary entries of July 24 and August 10 make it clear that neither Byrnes nor Truman were "obdurate" on the question (see p. 311). Beyond this Villa has single-handedly elevated Cordell Hull--who even Robert Maddox calls "much ignored"--to monumental stature. No major Truman biographer, not even Truman himself in his memoir Year of Decisions, uses Hull to defend the policy of unconditional surrender. Can Prof. Villa demonstrate how the retired and ailing Cordell Hull influenced Truman on this policy or is he merely speculating? Hull certainly communicated with Byrnes, but he had precious little contact with Truman. Yet, Villa has built Hull into a keystone in the unconditional surrender debate.

Moreover, he neglects to point out that Hull on July 16 asked Byrnes the following about offering assurances for the emperor, "Would it be well first to await the climax of allied bombing and Russia's entry into the war?" Clearly Hull's concern here is about timing rather than principle. (See pp. 305-308) That Hull wanted to couple assurances for the Emperor with the military shock of Russian entry or Allied bombardment is further reinforced by Grew's cable to Byrnes on the following day (see pp. 307-308).

Even the little influence on the administration that Hull did possess--through his contact with Byrnes--did not seem to amount to much. Byrnes quipped to John Foster Dulles in August 1945, "Cordell Hull was `My dear friend' but was never Secretary of State..."(p. 307) This was hardly an indication that Hull had any decisive influence over Byrnes. Indeed, Hull apparently made little impression on Byrnes regarding his opposition to modifying unconditional surrender since Byrnes told NBC producer Fred Freed in a 1964 interview that he did not even "remember that Cordell Hull took any active position [on unconditional surrender] after I became secretary. I know, however, that he shared the views of--in great part of Undersecretary Grew who believed firmly . . . that it would be unwise for us to insist upon the ousting of the emperor. . . ." Obviously Byrnes' memory does not square completely with the documentary evidence, but his characterization of Hull's position only makes it clearer that Hull did not make any strong impression upon Byrnes in this area.

Finally, it is useful to recall a passage from The Decision (p.312) that sharpens the consequences of withholding a statement on the Emperor for domestic political reasons:

"Few authors who have urged that "politics" explains why Byrnes and Truman eliminated the critical portion of paragraph twelve have openly confronted the implications of their theory--namely, that for (possibly modest) domestic political gains (not for military reasons or to save lives) 200,000 or more people, mostly civilians, may ultimately have been sacrificed. (And, of course, if saving U.S. lives was the primary objective, the decision, as the Joint Chiefs made clear, only added to the obstacles standing in the way of an end to the fighting.)"

If one makes the case that Truman couldn't offer assurances for the Emperor because of possible domestic political consequences, which the documents show the president did not see as overwhelming, then one is making the unsavory inference that Truman was willing to sacrifice American lives for his own political gain--since withholding assurances meant the Japanese would fight on. Saving lives should have been the weightier factor for the president and was surely his responsibility, even if it came at a political cost.


SUZUKI'S SPEECH

10/10: John Bonnett pointed to the Suzuki statement as a sign of Japanese intransigence: "Consider for example Prime Minister Suzuki's statement made on July 30, 1945, in the wake of the Potsdam declaration:

For the enemy to say something like that [the Potsdam Declaration] means circumstances have risen that force them also to end the war. That is why they are talking about unconditional surrender. Precisely at a time like this, if we hold firm, then they will yield before we do. Just because they broadcast their Declaration, it is not necessary to stop the fighting. You advisors may ask me to reconsider, but I don't think there is any need to stop [the war].

Note the crucial point. Suzuki is not emphasizing the status of the Emperor. His concern is the U.S. will to fight. His inference is that it is about to collapse. His implication is Japan can gain better peace terms."

RESPONSE: Bonnett is overlooking the context in which this statement was made. During the period in which the Japanese were still awaiting the Soviet response to their peace overture, the official position was to "withhold" final comment on the Potsdam Declaration. The hard-liners believed that they could get better terms if: 1) the Soviet Union could be persuaded to remain neutral; and, 2) if the neutral Soviets could act as intermediary with the Allies. Washington, of course, knew the Soviets were about to turn against the Japanese and thus pull the rug out from under the hardliners. Because the overtures to the Soviet Union were top secret (and political dynamite) Suzuki could only tell the press on July 28 that he would "ignore" (mokusatsu) the Declaration. The premier was also warned by the military that morale of the soldiers at the front would be hurt if the government seemed to be debating the terms. Thus Suzuki's public statements seem clearly to have been made, at least in significant part, with a view toward Japanese morale, while privately we know that the hardliners, as well as the peace faction, were eagerly awaiting news from Moscow. To interpret such politically charged statements as definitive evidence of a determined view is simply to ignore the evolving situation, the context, and the political environment of the time (see chapter 32).


HIROHITO'S ROLE IN ENDING THE WAR

11/1: Lou Coatney wrote in H-Japan: "Even though [the atomic bombs] were (so far) no worse than the "conventional" firebombings, they gave Hirohito the *qualitative* difference in weapons he needed to explain/excuse his demand for surrender to General Anami and his cohorts and to the Japanese people. Nothing epitomizes the arrogance of Gar Alperovitz and other Hiroshima revisionists more clearly than their attempt to second-guess even Emperor Hirohito ... who was, after all, the one person most responsible for obtaining Japan's surrender ... and really the *only* person able to obtain it."

RESPONSE: Mr. Coatney is quite right in citing the importance of Hirohito's decision to terminate the war. Unfortunately, he omits the fact that the Emperor told the Supreme Council for the Direction of the War in late June that the war should be ended. At the insistence of the hardliners, however, the war council decided to try to obtain more favorable terms through Soviet assistance. It is this overture (made possible by the Emperor's support) that was reported and tracked in the mid-July MAGIC intercepts. The news that the Emperor--the paramount source of legitimacy in Japan--had decided it was time to end the war gave US leaders great encouragement. Well before the first bomb was dropped the Japanese were still waiting for the Soviet reply to their request for mediation to end the war. It is in this pre-bomb context that Walter Brown noted in his August 3 diary entry: "Aboard Augusta/President, Leahy, JFB [Byrnes] agrred [sic] Japas [sic] looking for peace. (Leahy had another report from Pacific) President afraid they will sue for peace through Russia instead of some country like Sweden."

Moreover, it was the Soviet declaration of war that was cited in the "Japanese Army General Staff statement on surrender" intercepted through MAGIC: "As a result of Russia's entrance into the war, the Empire, in the fourth year of its [war] endeavor, is faced with a struggle for the existence of the nation." The atomic bomb was neither mentioned in the Army message nor cited as reason for the surrender negotiations (see pp. 418-419). To recall, the 1946 War Department Military Intelligence Division's study concluded that had the atomic bomb not been available or not been used, it is "almost a certainty that the Japanese would have capitulated upon the entry of Russia into the war" (pp. 84-85).

But the key question is: were the atomic bombings necessary to bring a quick Japanese surrender, thus saving lives on both sides? The Decision does not attempt to argue one way or the other whether the bombings or the Russians were what finally tipped the balance (see the Afterword in The Decision). What is important is whether it was understood that a change of terms plus the Russian attack would do it without the bombs. This is the critical issue; and on this the evidence now seems clear: the president was advised that the "two-step" strategy of awaiting the Russian attack and clarifying the Emperor's position seemed likely to end the war. And, to repeat, there were three months to go to see if this was so before even stage one of the invasion could begin.


THE IMPACT OF A SOVIET DECLARATION OF WAR AGAINST JAPAN

10/10: Eric Bergerud wrote: " The author greatly overstates the "shock effect" of the Soviet declaration of war. Like so many left wing journalists and historians since 1945, Alperovitz stresses the crucial importance of the Soviet entry into the war in August 1945. . . .If Russia attacked, so what? The war party knew that China & Manchuria was lost. As previously noted, they were trying to protect the Showa dictatorship, not a dead empire. When the attack came, it surprised no one in the military. The bomb, however, was utterly different. It was a serious shock and immediately recognized as a new and devastating weapon. The military might have been willing to fight on regardless, but there can be no doubt that the bomb was precious ammunition for Suzuki, Kido and Hirohito. Not only could they get the decision to accept the Potsdam Declaration, but they also were able to force the Army to accept the decision. That was no mean feat."

RESPONSE: Bergerud seems to prefer his speculation to the documents of the time--and, too, to ascribe left-wing motives to ideas which in fact had their origins within the top ranks of the U.S. military. As The Decision shows, the idea that the Russian attack would shock Japan into surrender derives from U.S. intelligence and military advice within the government. Foreign Minister Togo summed up the Japanese situation in an early June MAGIC intercept (pp. 121-122):

"f Russia by some chance should suddenly decide to take advantage of our weakness and intervene against us with force of arms, we would be in a completely hopeless situation. It is clear as day that the Imperial Army in Manchukuo would be completely unable to oppose the Red Army which has just won a great victory and is superior to us on all points."

See also: Herbert Bix, in an important article in Diplomatic History (Spring 1995), discussed the effect of the massive Soviet entry into the war against Japan (see DH, pp. 218 and 224). And, here is how a top secret 1946 study by the War Department's Military Intelligence Division characterized it:

"While the Japanese were awaiting an answer from Russia, there occurred the disastrous event which the Japanese leaders regarded as utter catastrophe and which they had energetically sought to prevent at any cost--Russia declared war upon Japan and began moving her forces into Manchuria."

The study went on to state:

"The Emperor and the advisors immediately surrounding the throne had come to a decision to end the war as early as 20 June 1945 and by 9 August, the date of Russia's entry into the war, were actively attempting to carry out this decision...The Japanese leaders had decided to surrender and were merely looking for sufficient pretext to convince the die-hard Army Group that Japan had lost the war and must capitulate to the Allies. The entry of Russia into the war would almost certainly have furnished this pretext, and would have been sufficient to convince all responsible leaders that surrender was unavoidable....The war would almost certainly have terminated when Russia entered the war against Japan."

Indeed, even a casual reading of pre-August 6 newspapers and periodicals from 1945 (across the political spectrum) shows that if the Soviet Union attacked it would be a devastating blow against Japan. It is important to remember that prior to August 6 the world had no knowledge of the atomic bomb and thus the "conventional wisdom" was that a modification of unconditional surrender and the possible Soviet declaration of war were the best means to end the war prior to an invasion. I would argue that this is precisely the course of action that would have been followed if the bomb had failed to work. See chapters 7-9 for a discussion of Soviet entry as well chapters 32-34 for a discussion of the final weeks of the war. See also "Hiroshima, the American Media, and the Construction of Conventional Wisdom," in The Journal of American-East Asian Relations (Summer 1995) by Uday Mohan and Sanho Tree.
 
Sidhe:

Sidhe said:
According to you, apparently the author cites communiques which say the opposite. So you just saying it isn't true is not that convincing. If you read the link and the debate he cites his sources, all you have is your opinion. Personally I'm more convinced by the sources provided. But then that's your look out, if you want to believe one set of sources over another, I can't really say much more, except like Elrohir your being intellectually dishonest, and essentially calling Winston Churchill and the Top American military brass and Eisenhower liars. Fine, pretty sad but fine that you dispute their word.

Regarding the bit in bold; surely you do not think that these intercepted communiqués represent the be all and end all of Japan's policy on surrender? I pointed this out earlier; the communiqués in question paint only a small part of a big picture. They do not represent the will of Japan, nor, IMHO, can they be taken to indicate that Japan would have surrendered in July on only minimal conditions. (This site which Elrohir posted earlier also mentions some of the other messages, outlining the various conditions that Japan's other leaders saw as a minimum.)

Any speculation that the Japanese would have surrendered prior to the bombs being dropped (or any other kind of attack being made) is just that - speculation. Carried out by very qualified people in some cases, no doubt, but speculation none-the-less. I'm not calling them liars; I just disagree with their opinions.

For what it's worth, they’re some pretty high profile opinions on both sides of the debate. Harry Truman was one who believed the bombs were necessary (duh!) as was US Army Chief of Staff George Marshall, known for the 'Marshall Plan', and winner of a Nobel Peace Prize. Lt.General Leslie Groves, who was in charge of the whole Manhattan Project, was also in favour of using the bombs. US Secretary of War Henry Stimson, while he had reservations about the insistence on unconditional surrender, also felt the bombs were needed. Are you calling them liars, Sidhe?

I have already posted why I think that it is unlikely that Japan would have surrendered without further force being applied.

It can certainly be argued that it might have been possible to bring the fighting to an end in July 1945, but the actions of the Japanese do not indicate that they would put up with realistic surrender conditions. To some extent this remained true even after the bombs were dropped.

This site you posted, Sidhe, (doug-long.com) is actually fairly good...a useful and credible source. This essay is worth reading (although I think the conclusion is dispropotionate to the evidence). The facts presented are all the same as I have mentioned, however even this essay concludes that we cannot predict for sure if the Japanese would have accepted an Emperor-stays surrender offer, and that further offensive actions may have been needed in any case of events. Perhaps the Allies should have pointed out a willingness to preserve some part of the Emperor’s position in the Potsdam Declaration, but as I said before, I don't think the Japanese would have accepted. Perhaps it was a shot that the Allies should have taken anyway? Perhaps, but beyond this, IMHO, you cannot argue against the necessity of the nuclear bombs or at the very least a continued conventional bombing campaign.

BTW, for what it's worth, here are my sources. Most of my nuclear bomb-related knowledge is taken from these three encyclopedias:

'WW2' by Lt.Col Eddie Bauer (1974)
'History of the Twentieth Century' edited by AJP Taylor and JM Roberts (1968)
'WW2 a Visual Encyclopedia' edited by John Keegan (2001)

I have afew other books as well but they don't touch on the bombs.

Also various web articles, forum posts, wikipedia etc, all taken with a grain of salt. ;)
 
Well of course this is always going to be a matter of opinion, after all most of the protagonists are dead, but I have to say I am carried by the sheer breadth of the book, and the sheer breadth of citation of sources; make up your own minds obviously, but I personally think I'm going to side with the top brass on this one, they seem the most likely to have known about the situation in depth, and let's face it if you've read the whole of that site, there are just too many to dismiss this out of hand as some have done.

Elrohir says that the site is not credible, but let's face it their diaries, their on the record statements, media reports, newspapers of the time, comments by Churchill et al, are highly credible sources. I think to say otherwise is disingenuous.
 
Well I think this thread has pretty much run it's course now, but I have a couple extra things to add before it gets blasted into obscurity by the collective boredness of the forum:

Winston Chrurchill was actually in favour of dropping the bombs. I'm surprised no-one has brought this up this until now. Noncon mentions it in his paper that he posted earlier, quoting Churchill's own history of the Second World War. Although, and I think this has been mentioned afew times, Winnie didn't like the idea of demanding total surrender with no promises made on the position of the Emperor.

So it's not just a case of siding with 'top brass' when the top brass themselves are divided. I already pointed out four other high ups who supported the bombing a couple posts up (including the President of the USA, as Irish Caesar pointed out, it's hard to find a bigger 'top brass' than him.) There are many more.

Ifanyone's interestedc, my paper is here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=131035&d=1151400590
(I mintain all intellectual copyright etc, just so noone can pass it off as their own)

I think a bigger crime than the bombs was the complete negligence of the US government to follow through on a Europe-deNazification style purging of Japan.
Though a number of people were executed (some completely unjustifiably), the Imperial army detachment equivilent to Megele's, who would practice live vivisection of civilians and POWs, gassings, medical experiments etc. were promised complete immunity in exchange for the results of the tests.
Also, many high officials were never really purged, and no sense of defeat, or wrong had been instilled in the Japanese.

In fact, many of the people with blood on their hands went on to form Japan's Liberal Democratic party, which is in power today, a major factor why Japan has never actually ackowledged the invasion of MAnchuria, Rape of Nanjing, concentration camps, death marches, etc., why young Japanese are not taught this in school, and why some of viles people in histtory are still considered as war heroes, and any criticism of them in dishonouring their memories.

BTW noncon, thanks for posting the paper, it's interesting. Beyond the fact that Hirohito stayed, I didn't realize that the 'de-nazification' in Japan was that limited...that is a bit weird.

For anyone interested, I have dug up this article written by Henry Stimson in 1947. It's definatley worth reading: The Decision To Use The Atomic Bomb by Henry Stimson.

:)
 
Actually I am quite surprised by the polls, I thought pretty predictably most US citizens would go with the yes answer, after all they aren't taught the same history as Europe and maybe the rest of the world, don't know? So they wouldn't be as open minded anyway. And that Europe/ROW might be divided, but it seems it's pretty Much Europe and the rest of the world vs the US and Australia, that to me is pretty indicative of how many voted with there politics rather than there head, but then that in itself wasn't unexpected; I think what was is that the vote is actually a lot closer than I thought, I figured there'd be maybe 80 to 20% sort of deal but it's much closer than that. Good glad to see mr Aperovitz maybe swayed some people, he certainly did his homework. I mean there's just a whole slew of factual documents in there. I'm looking forward to reading the book. :)
 
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