Was John Paul II the best Pope of the last few centuries?

[Plotinus]

What I also find really interesting in the Catholic Church history is the way it transformed from a completely rebellious faction of underground believers, rejecting all authorities and the Roman one in particular, into a very solid, very real temporal power that, in a way, became a supreme authority in the Middle-Ages, with its state, its leader, its army, its riches...

Interesting, but hardly unexpected, given that there was no temporal power to speak of in northern Itay in the Dark Ages. Little wonder that people like Gregory the Great found themselves having to act as, essentially, civil governors of the region, and generally doing as good a job as could be expected.

I don't know why you say that the early church was completely rebellious and rejected the Roman authorities, though. Have you read Romans 13?

 

[Kafka2]

I'd be interested to know which Popes of antiquity were married, though, since I certainly don't know of any - other than St Peter himself, of course.

Hadrian II (867- 872) was definitely married while Pope. Hormisdas (514- 523) almost certainly was. Alexander VI (aka Rodrigo de Borgia) was probably married, though it was hushed up at the time.

 

[Kafka2]

What I also find really interesting in the Catholic Church history is the way it transformed from a completely rebellious faction of underground believers, rejecting all authorities and the Roman one in particular, into a very solid, very real temporal power that, in a way, became a supreme authority in the Middle-Ages, with its state, its leader, its army, its riches...

What I find interesting about the Catholic Church history is that from 900- 1500AD the Papacy was unbelievably corrupt and violent. It was knee-deep in blood and most other bodily fluids. Expect a "Historical Filth" on the subject in the near future.

 

[Kafka2]

Let me put it this way- there's something a bit odd about a religion that, over the past 1000 years, has been headed by more atheists than it has by married men.

 

[Squonk]

This would bring the church nearer to the people and in western world the people wouldn´t leave the church

Western protestants are very liberal, yet they lose support quicker than catholicism

Why no abolishing that?

The church isn't to please people by saying what they wish

The Pope did not allow a common evening meal with protestants and even excommunicated some priests doing it nevertheless.

because it was ecomunical meetings and the priests didn't get allowance from the pope to attend it.

There are some other things I could mention where the pope is acting not very politely towards the protestant church.

Do that

Also you said, no one is forced to be a priest. Indeed. But priests are forced to live a life which is not natural and against the basic rules of church. There is nowhere a celibate in the bible. And so you have to see some of the best priests excluded from church. That is in no way a thing to be a saved tradition but a untradition against Men´s pride. So how you can say that this is not a reform, huh?

What You mean by "the best priests"?
The church derives the celibate from the life of Christ and letters of Paul I believe,
and it has right to it.

Actually, Pacelli was an anti-Jew (anti-semite can be translated as anti-Arab, which Pacelli was not). In fact, in Germany during WWI, Pacelli (the Papal Nuncio in Munich) boasted to his friends that he was helping peoples of all religions and, in a seperate letter, that he lied to the rabbi of Munich about helping the Israelitic Community of Germany get palm fronds by getting the Pope involved on their behalf. As to his relations with Hitler; they were fairly cordial.

I do not believe that, sorry.

 

[Arminius]

I do not believe that, sorry.

Which part don't you believe? Sources:

1. N. Padellaro, Portrait of Pius XII , English translation, 41.
2. Vatican SRS, Germania, 1917, Fasc. 852, folios 2-5.
3. Ibid., folio 4.
4. S. Friedlander, Pius XII and the Third Reich: A Documentation , English translation, 104.

 

[Adler17]

Squonk, yes the church isn´t to please the people´s wishes but the ethics made by the church. And in this also the human rights are based. So also the church is bound to the enlightment and the human righs. As so it should abandon these old untraditions of celibacy and only a male priesthood.
"because it was ecomunical meetings and the priests didn't get allowance from the pope to attend it."
You repeat my sentence but not give any explantions. Why did the pope not allow this? Why he did excomunicate this, when the event is a common one to all christian churches, a one first done by Jesus? This is one event. The other is a book made by the Opus Dei or Ratzinger IIRC in which the protestant church is de facto shown as heretics. Then there are some other points I don´t know exactly at this moment and have to reread them, what I can´t do because of the lack of time.
As I mentioned before there is no sentence in the bible if a celibate is a must for priests. Also it is not really clear if Jesus was married or not. Even if he wasn´t you can´t know his reasons. So why forcing others to live in that way? This is never the way Jesus chose. No one should be forced to act so. A celibate as a must for priests is against the will of Jesus. Also he never demanded Petrus to leave his wife nor his other fellowers.

Adler

 

[Stapel]

Western protestants are very liberal, yet they lose support quicker than catholicism.

Here in NL, the protestants are absolutely not liberal, hence they lose support so quick.

 

[Squonk]

So also the church is bound to the enlightment and the human righs. As so it should abandon these old untraditions of celibacy and only a male priesthood.

Don't try to tell that You treat priest celibacy as a way of breaking human rights...

Why he did excomunicate this, when the event is a common one to all christian churches

Because RCC is a centralised organisation, and it was a lack of subordination?

The other is a book made by the Opus Dei or Ratzinger IIRC in which the protestant church is de facto shown as heretics

Because they simply are
What do You mean, exactly by what Youy've written?

Also it is not really clear if Jesus was married or not

There are no mentionings of him being married, not even a hint.

No one should be forced to act so

They want to be married priest - let them change their faith.

A celibate as a must for priests is against the will of Jesus.

Quote me a part in which He says He's against it?

Also he never demanded Petrus to leave his wife nor his other fellowers.

I'm not so sure.

 

[Plotinus]

Squonk's right (as well as having a great name!). From a Catholic viewpoint, Protestants certainly are heretics. The Church Fathers would have unanimously agreed with this. To them, anyone who split from the church was equivalent to a heretic - indeed, they *were* heretics, since to separate oneself from the body of Christ on earth was to separate themselves from the only reliable guarantor of correct doctrine. I think it was Cyprian of Carthage who said that those who break Christ's body on earth will be punished no less severely than those who broke his body on the cross. And think of Augustine's voluminous writings against the Donatists: the Protestants had no better case than the Donatists did.

That's why, if I were a Christian, I'd be either Catholic or Orthodox, since I think that the Protestants (and the Church of the East, Ethiopian Orthodox etc.) have abandoned what was once a pretty central plank of Christianity.

In fact, it was while reading Athanasius' works against the Arians (in the hope of bolstering his *Anglican* ecclesiology) that Newman realised his attempts to justify even moderate Protestantism were flawed, and became a Roman Catholic.

Now, of course, one can say that the Catholics and the Church Fathers are equally wrong in their ecclesiology, and no doubt any consistent Protestant would have to say so. But it's wrong to criticise Catholics simply for not sharing that view, when it's perfectly consistent with all Christian teaching until the sixteenth century.

 

[Adler17]

Well Squonk, if the catholic church would have done more to reform there would never has been a partition. Remember Luther wanted to reform but not split. He was unable to do so, so he had to open a new church under the better ecclesiology (from my point of view). So the catholics were the heretics.
Also I have the opinion that celibacy is very against the human rights! And also against the bible. If you can´t marry because of being a priest it is against the pride of men.
Subordination of these priests? Yes, but the Pope betrayed the ecumenical Christianity before by not allowing it.
To celibacy: The bible was written by men in a time the role of the woman was much smaller. There are only some small hints in the bible who can be interpretable as Jesus was married. Nevertheless Jesus never forced humans to act against charity. He never forced people to leave his family. He never forced Petrus to leave his wife. So he would never have introduced a celibacy. The mentioned Mathew page is a good example. There he said the people should tolerate men who are not married. Argumentum e contrario: People should tolerate men who are married! People ashould act to become confident, under certain rules. But a celibacy for priests he never supported nor mentioned.


Adler

 

[Alone]

First of all, there is no good Pope to me, ever!!

on topic: From some Catholic's point of view he was one of the best, I think...

For other Christians (specialy Ortodox) he was one of the worst, but thats complatibile with previous sentence, I think...

But I'm interesting to see who we'll be the next devil to seat in his chair and how he will act after all what this one done...

 

[Kafka2]

First of all, there is no good Pope to me, ever!!

Not even the pornographer or the pirate?

 

[Alone]

Simularity is HUGE with this one and Pope from WWII time. At least about there acts against my nation. Different times, same personality, like reincarnations..

Not even the pornographer or the pirate?

Well, you're right, I would like to see "reincarnation" of that Celestine V, how the things stand in todays bussines world, that one could made Catholic church richer than ever ...I mean if he doesn't give away that bloody-sweat earned money to the poor...

 

[Princeps]

Meny popes and the chatolic church became exacly what Jesus warned about... A conservative, twisted, intolerant and corrupt. Well... John paul is conservative, but his tolerant and tries to heal relations to the orthodox church and islam.