Was this really necessary?

[civ_king]

I'm pretty sure anti-Semitism was prevalent in the Catholic parts as well.

In WWII many Catholics were sent to Concentration Camps for sheltering Jews, also they were the largest Jew smuggling organization during World War II

 

[EmpireOfCats]

Well its not about that really, i think that most Americans dont even know how many countries there are in Europe either

See, guys, just as I told you: Here's Exhibit A, a European who thinks that Americans are stupid and Europeans are clever. I rest my case.

But to answer your question: Given the five million Americans of Norwegen descent, that is not a problem. Now, if you had said "Moldova" ...

And seriously, nobody, not even the Europeans knows how many countries there are in Europe, because the number keeps changing all the time. Given that Transnistria is about to leave Moldova and Belgium (Belgium!) is in danger of falling apart, it is simply not worth the effort for Americans or Europeans.

(How is anybody supposed to remember names like "The Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia" anyway? That sounds like something from Monty Python.)

 

[Ahriman]

Well its not about that really, i think that most Americans dont even know how many countries there are in Europe either

Honestly, I think most Europeans don't know how many countries where are in Europe. Its not something you know off the top of your head. Lets see....

What's your count?

Spoiler :

Iceland?
UK, Ireland, France, Andorra, Monaco, Spain, Portugal, Belgium, Nethelands, Luxembourg, Italy, Malta, Switzerland, Germany, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Czech R, Croatia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Serbia, Montenegro, Kosovo, Bosnia H, Macedonia, Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Moldova, Hungary, Ukraine, Belarus, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, Austria
Cyprus?
Russia?
Turkey?
Vatican?

So, up to 44?

 

[Yared]

In WWII many Catholics were sent to Concentration Camps for sheltering Jews, also they were the largest Jew smuggling organization during World War II

Interesting.

How about historically?

 

[civ_king]

isn't the number in the low 40s (depends how you count Vatican City, Cyprus and Turkey)

@Yared well there was the Spanish Inquisition, but that was more political than religious

 

[aziantuntija]

Ok ill know i havent said it here before but now ill say it, what im going to say pretty much describes the whole thread, are you ready cause here it comes!

LOL

 

[PeterWimsey]

In WWII many Catholics were sent to Concentration Camps for sheltering Jews, also they were the largest Jew smuggling organization during World War II

Certainly individual Catholics helped Jews, especially in Spain and Portugal...but do you have any more information on Jew-smuggling activities? I associate this mostly with Denmark and, to some extent, Sweden.

Certainly Pius XII's refusal to condemn the holocaust was of no use.

 

[aziantuntija]

See, guys, just as I told you: Here's Exhibit A, a European who thinks that Americans are stupid and Europeans are clever. I rest my case.

Im speechless..

Moderator Action: Please refrain from tripping the auto censor. There are always better alternatives to swearing. Thanks.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

I mean you are absolutely clever, im not saying you are more clever than American tough but you are just absolutely clever.

 

[civ_king]

Certainly individual Catholics helped Jews, especially in Spain and Portugal...but do you have any more information on Jew-smuggling activities? I associate this mostly with Denmark and, to some extent, Sweden.

Certainly Pius XII's refusal to condemn the holocaust was of no use.

it's long
tl;dr

The vindication of Pius XII has been established principally by Jewish writers and from Israeli archives. It is now established that the Pope supervised a rescue network which saved 860,000 Jewish lives - more than all the international agencies put together.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/piusdef.html

Spoiler :

People often ask: why did Pius XII, Eugenio Pacelli, not speak out more forcefully against Hitler? Historian Fr Dermot Fenlon of the Birmingham Oratory looks at the facts and sets the record straight.

The answer is recounted by a former inmate of Dachau, Mgr Jean Bernard, later Bishop of Luxembourg:

"The detained priests trembled every time news reached us of some protest by a religious authority, but particularly by the Vatican. We all had the impression that our warders made us atone heavily for the fury these protests evoked ... whenever the way we were treated became more brutal, the Protestant pastors among the prisoners used to vent their indignation on the Catholic priests: 'Again your big naive Pope and those simpletons, your bishops, are shooting their mouths off .. why don't they get the idea once and for all, and shut up. They play the heroes and we have to pay the bill.'"

Albrecht von Kessel, an official at the German Embassy to the Holy See during the war, wrote in 1963:

"We were convinced that a fiery protest by Pius XII against the persecution of the Jews ... would certainly not have saved the life of a single Jew. Hitler, like a trapped beast, would react to any menace that he felt directed at him, with cruel violence."

The real question is, therefore, not what did the Pope say, but what did the Pope do? Actions speak louder than words. Papal policy in Nazi Europe was directed with an eye to local conditions. It was co- ordinated with local hierarchies. Nazi policy towards the Jews varied from country to country. Thus, although anti-Jewish measures were met in France by public protest from Archbishop Saliege of Toulouse, together with Archbishop Gerlier of Lyons and Bishop Thias of Mantauban, their protest was backed by a highly effective rescue and shelter campaign. 200,000 lives were saved. In Holland, as Fr Michael O'Carroll writes, the outcome was 'tragically different'. The Jewish historian Pinchas Lapide sums it up:

"The saddest and most thought provoking conclusion is that whilst the Catholic clergy of Holland protested more loudly, expressly and frequently against Jewish persecutions than the religious hierarchy of any other Nazi-occupied country, more Jews - some 11,000 or 79% of the total - were deported from Holland; more than anywhere else in the West."

Van Kessel's view is therefore borne out by the experience of Nazi Holland: protest merely made for more reprisals.

What of Rome itself? In 1943 the German ambassador to the Holy See, Von Weizsaecker, sent a telegram to Berlin. The telegram has been cited as damning 'evidence' against Pius XII.

"Although under pressure from all sides, the Pope has not let himself be drawn into any demonstrative censure of the deportation of Jews from Rome ... As there is probably no reason to expect other German actions against the Jews of Rome we can consider that a question so disturbing to German-Vatican relations has been liquidated."

Von Weizsaecker's telegram was in fact a warning not to proceed with the proposed deportation of the Roman Jews: 'there is probably no reason to expect other German actions against the Jews of Rome'. Von Weizsaecker's action was backed by a warning to Hitler from Pius XII: if the pursuit and arrest of Roman Jews was not halted, the Holy Father would have to make a public protest. together the joint action of Von Weizsaecker and Pius XII ended the Nazi manhunt against the Jews of Rome. 7,000 lives were saved.

In Hungary, an estimated 80,000 baptismal certificates were issued by Church authorities to Jews. In other areas of Eastern Europe the Vatican escape network (organised via Bulgaria by the Nuncio Roncalli - later John XXIII) has impressed those writers who have studied the subject, with the effectiveness of the Church's rescue operation. David Herstig concludes his book on the subject thus:

"Those rescued by Pius are today living all over the world. There went to Israel alone from Romania 360,000 to the year 1965."

The vindication of Pius XII has been established principally by Jewish writers and from Israeli archives. It is now established that the Pope supervised a rescue network which saved 860,000 Jewish lives - more than all the international agencies put together.

After the war the Chief Rabbi of Israel thanked Pius XII for what he had done. The Chief Rabbi of Rome went one step further. He became a Catholic. He took the name Eugenio.

 

[Mercade]

At least the football match between US and UK at the world cup ended in a draw or I'm sure some in this thread have seen that as part of the great anti-American conspiracy.

The offending texts have already been adjusted, so get a grip.

 

[aziantuntija]

Sorry moderator i really didnt know that seven (7) smileys in a row are not allowed

 

[mjs0]

At least the football match between US and UK at the world cup ended in a draw or I'm sure some in this thread have seen that as part of the great anti-American conspiracy.

The offending texts have already been adjusted, so get a grip.

Uh...

UK <> England

(I think this has been discussed before on these forums )

 

[Malkaviel]

I'm going to presume they are talking about the US, what you think Canada is going to save them?

Just read "On the Jews and Their Lies"... it bears remarkable similarity to what hey Nazis did, not only that but most of Germany was Lutheran...

I have read everything from Martin Luther to which I've had access, which is why I can debate this. I will say two things to this and then be done because I don't think I can convince you otherwise, but I'd like to try.

1. There was no prevailing subscription to Luther's anti-semitic views in Germany in the 18th or 19th century. The statement "most of Germany was Lutheran" is moot in this instance (and I'm not fully sure it's accurate) because "most of Germany" didn't perpetrate the holocaust. The significance lay in the "court of public opinion" in support of the nazi party, which is exactly what the nuremburg rallies were; propaganda. A modern equivalent would be Donald Rumsfeld's propaganda of "WMD's in Iraq", used to steer American public opinion in favor of conflict with Sadam Hussein.

2. It was no novel idea, in regard to a purported "rival faction" to wantonly cause death, impress survivors into forced labor, and seize property. You're using hindsight from a position of relative insulation from such odious violence in the modern era. To say "Nazis got their ideas from Luther" would beg the question, "how did aggressive, conquering cultures ever figure out how to operate previous to the 16th century without some protestant ex-monk explaining how to conduct business?".

 

[civ_king]

I have read everything from Martin Luther to which I've had access, which is why I can debate this. I will say two things to this and then be done because I don't think I can convince you otherwise, but I'd like to try.

1. There was no prevailing subscription to Luther's anti-semitic views in Germany in the 18th or 19th century. The statement "most of Germany was Lutheran" is moot in this instance (and I'm not fully sure it's accurate) because "most of Germany" didn't perpetrate the holocaust. The significance lay in the "court of public opinion" in support of the nazi party, which is exactly what the nuremburg rallies were; propaganda. A modern equivalent would be Donald Rumsfeld's propaganda of "WMD's in Iraq", used to steer American public opinion in favor of conflict with Sadam Hussein.

2. It was no novel idea, in regard to a purported "rival faction" to wantonly cause death, impress survivors into forced labor, and seize property. You're using hindsight from a position of relative insulation from such odious violence in the modern era. To say "Nazis got their ideas from Luther" would beg the question, "how did aggressive, conquering cultures ever figure out how to operate previous to the 16th century without some protestant ex-monk explaining how to conduct business?".

1) the relevant paragraph

During the First and Second World War, German leaders used the writings of Luther to support the cause of German nationalism.[20] At the 450th anniversary of Luther's birth, which took place only a few months after the Nazi seizure of power in 1933, there were celebrations conducted on a large scale both by the Protestant Churches and the Nazi Party.[21] At a celebration at Königsberg (which after 1945 became Kaliningrad) Erich Koch, at that time Gauleiter of East Prussia, made a speech which, among other things, compared Adolf Hitler and Martin Luther and claimed that the Nazis fought with Luther's spirit.[21] Such a speech might be dismissed as mere propaganda,[21] but, as Steigmann-Gall points out: "Contemporaries regarded Koch as a bona fide Christian who had attained his position [of the elected president of a provincial Church synod] through a genuine commitment to Protestantism and its institutions."[22]

2) The specific oppression of Jews is largely the same as what Martin Luther claimed, I make no claim to other oppression

 

[Malkaviel]

Your argument is morphing as well as waning.

You started with, "Hitler got his ideas from Luther". Now you're citing wikipedia (lol) and reduced to, "Nazis used Luther to propagate politically."

Next will be, "Well, someone somewhere said Luther!"

Since you love wiki, here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic

 

[Svip]

Just read "On the Jews and Their Lies"... it bears remarkable similarity to what hey Nazis did, not only that but most of Germany was Lutheran...

Here I would go with; yeah, like a lot of people have done also. Prosecution of Jews have been a European past time since around Jesus. What Hitler and the Nazis did was nothing new. It had been done o so many times before, they just did on a far wider and gruesome scale.

Hell, many things the Nazis did was basically just doing stuff that a lot of other civilisations had done before. And failed, no less. He even tried a land war in Asia!

My argument is; sure, On the Jews and Their Lies will be similar, but that book is basically just summing up all Christians' feeling about Jews around this time. There is probably little knew in this book, and thus I would not say that Hitler got his direct inspiration from that book alone. I am personally going with that he got the idea himself! And once you start to think about why you hate Jews, well, then it's pretty much the same walk as everyone else.

Moderator Action: don't spam the forums

 

[The_J]

Which idiot did turn this thread in a nazi thread? Thank you .

Funny, I was just looking at the forums on the civ5 website. There's a thread with almost the exact same title as this one. Instead of complaining about how the site took a supposed jab at America, that thread is complaining about the fact that America's factoid makes us look important, while all the other factoids are kinda dumb pieces of trivia. "ooooh, big important Americans went to the moon, but all they say about China is ice cream??!" (something like that, I'm paraphrasing).

I directly think in the opposite way.
The factoids are supposed unimportant but funny aspects.
Most entries do it very well. I like the entry for china about ice cream. Interesting, funny, and i didn't know about it, but sure somehow unimportant.

But the entry for america...haha, an unimportant, not worth no mention tiny little thing which is funny...haha...the first step on the moon? Seriously? This should be insulting to every person in america. It down values one of the biggest american achievements.

I also am not seeing what's so wrong with adding some light touches to the game like the "fun facts." Some people act like the game is serious business and nothing light or humorous has ever been done before.

Some are just misinterpreting the purpose of the factoids, i guess.

 

[Graceheart the Leopard]

On the Ottoman civ description on the Civilization V site:

"Many Americans know very little about the Ottoman Empire (it occupies the blind spot Americans have for pretty much everything between Greece and China)."

Did this change since you posted it? Now the description in its entirety reads:

The Ottoman Empire was born in Anatolia (in modern Turkey) at the start of the 13th century. It expanded into three continents and thrived for some six centuries.

 

[Del Pino]

Did this change since you posted it?

Yes, it has been changed. Although it sounds like the original description still may be used in the in-game Civilopedia.

 

[cccv]

I directly think in the opposite way.
The factoids are supposed unimportant but funny aspects.
Most entries do it very well. I like the entry for china about ice cream. Interesting, funny, and i didn't know about it, but sure somehow unimportant.

But the entry for america...haha, an unimportant, not worth no mention tiny little thing which is funny...haha...the first step on the moon? Seriously? This should be insulting to every person in america. It down values one of the biggest american achievements.

That interpretation is kind of a stretch, given that they call it "arguably the single greatest scientific event in the history of mankind."