West Bank Man Sent to Jail for Criticizing Islam on Facebook

[aronnax]

If so, then you are contradicting your earlier post which showed a complete lack of understanding of all of those things.

No, I contest Domination's view of 'freeing' the Israelis by giving them total control which resulted in things that are clearly abominable.

Nonesense. Those things were there long before the walls were built. They were there long before the state of Israel was born. They were there before the British Mandate. They were there before Ottoman rule.

Not true. Anti-Jewish riots were a semi-regular thing among the Arabs, but they were never as bad as European treatment during the 19th Century or even modern day.
The hatred of the Jews and Israel really sparked off with the establishment of the state of Israel and the actions leading from it.

This can only come from somebody who has never been there. This American Jew showed his ID & opened his bags at every grocery store & shopping mall; at every border crossing, every entrance to the Old City in Jerusalem, every visit to the Western Wall & at every other checkpoint. So do Israelis. You've clearly never been there & don't know what you're talking about.

A friend of mine was in Israel last year and she told me she got through customs with different treatment than the Palestinians who were, in her own words that ring in my head, "lined up like prisoners, every man, woman, child, the old and young."

But I believe that is more of the abuse of soldiers rather than the state policies.
In anycase, you are right in the fact I have not been there.

Fair enough, but I can't understand it any more than I could understand a Jew supporting Nazism.

I would support a Palestinians because they deserve their own state as a people, because the principle of statehood and self representation still stands even if the principle to rights (for gays) don't.

In that Nazi-Jewish case, the Nazis don't have the "principle to genocide"

You lost me there. Palestinians today are Arabs.

whoops. I mean Palestinians and Israelis.

Amen. As long as they don't use it as a firing base.

And neither does Israel.

They have that in Saudi Arabia. Are you working on gay rights & religious freedom there? I didn't think so.

Well, I personally can't really go there and demand to speak to the King about Gay and religious rights.
But the point is that, working with a satisfied Palestine State is easier than controlling a bitter Palestine Territory.

Total nonesense. If someone steals from me, I have the right to steal from others? This is a complete breakdown of rational thought. The reality is that we are all responsible for our own actions. We can & should expect people, any people, not to murder, not to hijack planes & ships, not to strap bombs to children, not to target school buses with assault rifles, not to attack the Olympics, not to throw wheelchair-bound people into the sea.

Okay bad example. But you can see my point is that, being so bitter, so poor, so angry and hateful, trying to shove gay and religious rights down them is just causing more resentment. Won't it be better to treat them the same and using the magic of globalisation to moderate them? The best example I can give is how Asian Conservatism is being hacked away with the prosperity of a globalised economy in the richer parts of China, Japan, South Korea, Singapore and Malaysia (to an extent), richer parts of Indonesia, the richer parts of Thailand, the richer parts of Philippines and the best example of them all, which turned from a Confucian-inspired Military Dictatorship in 1975 to having the largest gay pride events in Asia, Taiwan.

 

[amadeus]

The hatred of the Jews and Israel really sparked off with the establishment of the state of Israel and the actions leading from it.

Whether or not that is true, I don't know, but it doesn't paint a very good picture of the Arabs. It shows them as being petty and stupid; instead of focusing on improving their lives, they decide to spend 100% of their energies on trying to kill Jews.

P.S., I think Singapore is less 1984 and more Logan's Run, but I could be wrong.

 

[Tee Kay]

Whether or not that is true, I don't know, but it doesn't paint a very good picture of the Arabs. It shows them as being petty and stupid; instead of focusing on improving their lives, they decide to spend 100% of their energies on trying to kill Jews.

Since when does irrational bigotry inhibits material progress?

 

[amadeus]

Since when does irrational bigotry inhibits material progress?

When they spend 30% of their GDP on "defense" when it's clear nobody is going to attack them.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Does this really come as a shock to anybody? Did anyone think that any Palestinian-governed territory was going to allow dissent?

They have internet in the West Bank ?

 

[Tee Kay]

When they spend 30% of their GDP on "defense" when it's clear nobody is going to attack them.

No country spends 30% of their GDP on defense.

The list of the top ten looks like this:

Eritrea 20.9%
Georgia 8.5%
Saudi Arabia 8.2%
Oman 7.7%
Israel 7.0%
Chad 6.6%
UAE 5.9%
Jordan 5.9%
Iraq 5.4%
Sudan 4.4%

 

[bhsup]

There were muslim fundies loooooooooong before there was an Israel

I think you'll find Israel existed some 1800-1900 years before Islam.

 

[useless]

I think you'll find Israel existed some 1800-1900 years before Islam.

And? The kingdom of israel hasn't existed for over 1900 years.

 

[aronnax]

I think you'll find Israel existed some 1800-1900 years before Islam.

Yes... Because, sovereignty issues are settled on a first come first served basis.

 

[carlosMM]

Just goes to show the mentality of the region.

Yeah, if we strike "Islam" and replace with "Christianity" one might actually think this happened in the US.

 

[luiz]

Easily enough. You characterized our defense of Palestine as something it is not.
May not be the best definition for it, but seeing as I don't have a list of logical fallacies memorized it was good enough. You don't want to get into a stupid argument, don't make stupid posts that you know full well to be lies.

I was not characterizing "your" defense of Palestine as anything

Maybe you ought to read before quoting.

----------------------------------

Anyway, really disapointed at the PA. This is the sort of crap we exepect from Hamas; the PA is supposed to be a bunch of crooked thugs, but at least secular crooked thugs. I do think however that they have to show they're tough on the apostates in order to prevent them from losing further ground to Hamas.

Now why the hell any sane and educated Palestinian would want to live in a Palestinian state is beyond me.

 

[Imrahil91]

Heh, another woman is also the first to be sentenced to death by hanging in Pakistan because she is accused for insulting the prophet.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-11745100
Muhammad seems to be serious business in Muslim countries.

 

[wolfigor]

That's an international border. Like USA-Mexico.

What Israel is doing is superficially the same but in fact different. Firstly, the wall does not follow any accepted international or even internal border. Land and people on both sides of the wall are under Israeli control. Its construction often ignored the needs of the local people (cutting through private property, putting communities on different sides of the wall, cutting them off from economic opportunities etc).

With Israel unilateral retreat from Gaza, de-facto you have an independent Palestinian state with a large number of treaties (commerce, border crossing, water distribution, cross-border workers, taxation remittance, etc) with neighbors countries like Israel and Egypt.
The Palestinian government in Gaza could have demonstrated to be a good partner for peace like Egypt did in 1978, gained the trust of the west, to gain full independence and strong support.

Spoiler :

In 1978 Israel retreated from Sinai, displacing a large number of colonists.
In exchange Egypt recognized Israel, recognized its right to exist, stopped aggressive posture, and gained peace, commerce, and huge support from the west (i.e. over $1.3 billion annually just from USA).

Palestinians in Gaza could have done the same on a smaller scale.
Unfortunately it didn't work out.
Terrorists attacks routinely starts from Gaza (e.g. missiles) and Israel duly retaliate.

If you are anyone other than the local Palestinians you won't be too troubled by this. The problem is if Israel want peace then it's the opinion of the local Palestinians that counts.

Yes, that's for sure.
However the Palestinians have to demonstrate that they are able to manage their own state to don't be a base for terrorists attacks against Israel.
Until then, they remain under "vigilance" with minimal autonomy... something that is extremely bad for for Palestinians but very lucrative for their leadership.

In my view the greatest enemy of Palestinians is their own leaders (both Fatah and Hamas) that rob their own people of the good future they so badly need and deserve.

 

[Holycannoli]

Yeah, if we strike "Islam" and replace with "Christianity" one might actually think this happened in the US.

What are you basing this on? It won't happen in the US, and nobody in any Christian country would be jailed for criticizing Christianity on Facebook. But these nutjobs in the middle east are centuries behind the rest of the world (stoning people in the 21st century? Really?)

 

[Tee Kay]

The Palestinian government in Gaza could have demonstrated to be a good partner for peace like Egypt did in 1978, gained the trust of the west, to gain full independence and strong support.

Gaza was a real lost opportunity, yes. But this works both ways. Israel could have shown that it could be trusted by... say, halting settler town construction in the West Bank, for instance, instead of continuing to let Israeli settlers in by the tens of thousands even as they pull out from the (relatively small and urban) Gaza Strip.

(stoning people in the 21st century? Really?)

I don't see why people get so worked up over stoning. It's a method of execution like any other. I mean, the side of me that supports the death penalty doesn't have a problem with stoning murderers or serial rapists to death. It's the stoning for adultery or blasphemy that my pro-death-penalty side has a problem with.

 

[wolfigor]

Gaza was a real lost opportunity, yes. But this works both ways. Israel could have shown that it could be trusted by... say, halting settler town construction in the West Bank, for instance, instead of continuing to let Israeli settlers in by the tens of thousands even as they pull out from the (relatively small and urban) Gaza Strip.

well... Israel did show good faith in that case:
- Removed blocks & checkpoints inside to Gaza
- gave territory back to the PA in Gaza
- forcibly removed Jewish colonists from Gaza (using force on its own citizens)
- let Palestinians occupy those houses and desecrate temples

I assume the next step was on the PA to show that they could be a peaceful and trustworthy neighbor.

It's sad, but after such precedent why should anybody think that events will develop differently in the West-Bank if nothing changes?

 

[Formaldehyde]

Try a holocaust-denial rant in Israel or many other countries for that matter.

And if you say a word against Zionism you are branded an anti-Semite even if you are an Israeli Jew.

What are you basing this on? It won't happen in the US, and nobody in any Christian country would be jailed for criticizing Christianity on Facebook. But these nutjobs in the middle east are centuries behind the rest of the world (stoning people in the 21st century? Really?)

The rise of apostasy in the US is endangering us all:

http://www.tangle.com/view_video?viewkey=19401fe52dcda518bd96

And Sharia Law is coming to Tennessee and was coming to Oklahoma until they banned it.

You don't have to go very far to find persecution of those who have different beliefs than many Christians. The only reason we don't have laws against apostasy in many areas is due to the Constitution and the Supremes.

 

[Tee Kay]

well... Israel did show good faith in that case:
- Removed blocks & checkpoints inside to Gaza
- gave territory back to the PA in Gaza
- forcibly removed Jewish colonists from Gaza (using force on its own citizens)
- let Palestinians occupy those houses and desecrate temples

I assume the next step was on the PA to show that they could be a peaceful and trustworthy neighbor.

It's sad, but after such precedent why should anybody think that events will develop differently in the West-Bank if nothing changes?

You don't get it. At the same time that the Israelis are doing all those things settlers continue to arrive in the West Bank in far larger numbers than those removed from the Gaza Strip. To the Palestinians, the highly publicized Gaza withdrawal is just a screen to obscure Israel's actions in the West Bank.

Secondly, the PA is not a unified, independent entity, on equal footing with Israel. The PA is not a state. It is dependent on Israel in the West Bank and treated as a terrorist organization in the Gaza Strip (and while that's accurate, this view ignores the other functions of Hamas, as the administrative power of Gaza). It's a direct result of That Election, where Hamas won, and the West and Israel immediately imposed sanctions on the PA and backed Fatah in the civil war against Hamas.

When you say the PA should demonstrate they could be peaceful and trustworthy... well, which PA are you talking about? In the West Bank the PA have shown that, yes, it can run its own affairs (thank you Salam Fayyad) and it is showing great restraint in the face of continuing Israeli occupation and treatment of Palestinians there. In the Gaza Strip, there's a war on. That has to end, somehow, before any fruitful negotiation can take place.

 

[Yeekim]

I support a Palestinian state because it will be beginning of healing of relations and society between the Palestinians and the Israelis.

We need "unwarranted optimism" smiley. On the other hand, maintaining status quo is unlikely to bring any improvement into relations either...

 

[JollyRoger]

What are you basing this on? It won't happen in the US, and nobody in any Christian country would be jailed for criticizing Christianity on Facebook. But these nutjobs in the middle east are centuries behind the rest of the world (stoning people in the 21st century? Really?)

A Christian woman in Texas stoned her children to death in this century.