WH Mod Expansion Discussion

drzoidberg said:
If I remember my Warhammer correctly none of the undead CIVs are ever actually completely undead, (wouldn't be many corpses to rise if that was the case).
Don't forget that most undead units cost 1 pop to build in the current mod. Only a foolish necromancer would waste time and resources training troops just to make them undead after training has been completed. Much better to make undeads out the scared and untrained citizens directly. ;)
 
To be honest I'm confused as anyone about the undead situation with the mod. If anyone can put together a workable list of what units the three undead civs should have when, then I'll use that.
 
Mr. Do said:
To be honest I'm confused as anyone about the undead situation with the mod. If anyone can put together a workable list of what units the three undead civs should have when, then I'll use that.

I could share with you the changes I made for my version of WH. I changed the three races using Aaglo's units for the Sylvanians and Khemri and Kinboat's units for Lahmia. If you like the changes I made you could use them or at least it would give you a starting point.
But you would have to instruct me what to to in order to upload my version of the mod.
 
You've put kinboat's egyptians to Lahmia? Interesting choise :thumbsup:

Anyway, Mr. Do knows the beta-version, where the egyptian units are given also to Khemri. I thought about keeping them in, and including these:
- Liche priest to replace the liche in Magic (Era 1)
- Tomb swarm and skeleton archer (upgrade for archer) to Religion (Era 2)
- Tomb guard (from Nehekharan swordsman), Skeleton Chariot (from War Chariot) and Skeleton light cavalry/w bow (from camel rider) to Theocracy (Era 2)
- Skeleton speaman (from Nehekharan spearman) to Steel (Era 2)
- Screaming Skull catapult to replace the Trebuchet in Adv. Siegecraft (Era 3)
- Bone Giant to Necromancy (Era 3)
 
Ok, my offer to upload my version of the mod is still valid. The reason why I'm offering to upload my ver. is simple: it explains how I added the new units much better than me :lol: .
Anyway here's what I've done for the Khemri:

I Era:

Warrior code - Skeleton Spearman, Spearman. (the human unit and the undead are available together because i think there were some necromancers from the start in Khemri land :) ) - the Skeleton spearman upgrades into Skeleton Halberd - Polearms - IIEra

Smithing - Swordsman (so here nothing changed)
Riding - Skeleton Horseman (Aaglo's skeleton rider with a bow)
Military Training - Skeleton Chariot
Balistics - Skeleton Archer
Magic - Liche upgrades into Liche Priest in III Era

II Era

Steel - Tomb Swarm
Polearms - Skeleton Halberd
Assasination - Tomb Swarm - I didn't make it an assasin but it's a stealth unit with paradrop ability- it paradrops from those spell containers( I don't remember the exact name :crazyeye: )

III Era

High Magic - Liche Priest
Necromancy - Bone Giant

Each of the undead units cost 1 population except for the Bone Giant that costs 2 populatin points. The money cost is very low. I tested this setting in at least 10 games and it worked very well each time. I didn't know what to to with the Ushabti and I gave it to Lahmia but after reading more on the WH site I realised I made a big mistake nad that they should belong to the Khemri.
So, this is it. What do you guys think?

PS: Aaglo, I changed the units for Lahmia, giving it mostly human units (Kinboat's Egyptians) and only a few undead units because the story says that the Lahmians were vampires that had many human servants and used their charm to rule over them.
 
This is just an idea for discussion but if you are filling out the last 5 civs at all Tilea had a number of different army lists for the various cities, one of which was REMAS which was a Roman-Byzantine army list with early Republican Rome as the model (other cities were modeled after medieval Venice, etc) - I don't know if it was ever originally considered for inclusion but all the units exist for it along with the leaderhead. I put it in my version along with the Venice clone in place of one Tilea (along with making their governments REPUBLIC).
 
According to one White Dwarf Mag i have somewhere, the Khemri were origanly i( think if i remember rightly) multiple city state like things ruled over by a royal family that i think started using necromancy later. Nagash took over and destroyed a whole lot of cities but didnt solely use undead in fact i think most were peasant/slave humans that he raised after they died. Better to charge armed peasants into the enemy and then raise them in front of them. The whole undead dont really like each other either i think in a couple they mention wars they had against each other.

I think they need more undead but i dont want to see them all become undead.

Also tell me of these menial tasks i would be glad to help if i can. I have tracked this thread the WH 2 thread and the original from the beggining even if i havent posted as much as others. So anything i could do to help create ED's vision i will do as best i can.
 
Since it doesn't make sense to be able to build(create) undead units without the knowledge of Necromancy then how about this to handle the Khemri situation?

Khemri keep all current 1st age living units, but give them access to Necromancy in the end of the 1st age already (and while we are at it lets remove Vampirism from their tech tree) - and have undead replacements for all 1st age units present there.

This would require a little tech tinkering, but nothing to loose hair over.

Vampirism
Req. Adv.: Undead Curse, Monarchy and Magic
This should make it available only to the 2 vampire nations.

Necromancy
Req. Adv.: Undead Curse, Despotism, Magic and Military Training
Only available to the Khemri and located in the same spot on tech tree as Vampirism.
Place all undead upgrades/replacements to previous 1st age units under this tech.
To ensure the Khemri have the art of Necromancy before entering the 2nd age I suggest making this a tech required for advancement (yes, this is possible without blocking for the other civs). This would allow for all units from 2nd age up to be all undead.

Undead State (previously known as Necromancy)
Req. Adv.: Undead Curse and Black Arts
Only name changed here.
 
CyberChrist said:
Since it doesn't make sense to be able to build(create) undead units without the knowledge of Necromancy then how about this to handle the Khemri situation?

As I have understood undeads in WH. Raising dead in WH doesn't require necromancy. Necromancy in WH is more a kind of magic art-form, with schools, scholars, Necrarchs and all the bells and whistles of academic life. Just raising the recently deceased is a lot simpler, (and is where it begins for all the undead kingdoms). Creating a mortar out of a log is a lot simpler than a industrial built Bofors artillery pieace but is still a cannon. Mastering the art is very gradual and I think this is how it is and should be reflected in the WH MOD.
 
Antiochus VII said:
I put it in my version along with the Venice clone in place of one Tilea (along with making their governments REPUBLIC).

The govornements in the MOD are locked and Tilea will be monarchy. If we fiddle with that the whole mechanics of the game will collapse. So I think we better leave it the way it is.
 
drzoidberg said:
As I have understood undeads in WH. Raising dead in WH doesn't require necromancy. Necromancy in WH is more a kind of magic art-form, with schools, scholars, Necrarchs and all the bells and whistles of academic life. Just raising the recently deceased is a lot simpler, (and is where it begins for all the undead kingdoms).
Undeads may exist without necromancy taking place, however once someone start CREATING undeads they are performing an act of Necromancy whether they are attached to any school of the arts proclaiming to be necromancers or not.


drzoidberg said:
Creating a mortar out of a log is a lot simpler than a industrial built Bofors artillery pieace but is still a cannon. Mastering the art is very gradual and I think this is how it is and should be reflected in the WH MOD.
You would not know how to make a mortar out a log if you didn't know how to make a cannon in the first place - heh.

The power of the Khemri would still be gradualy increasing, they would merely be getting undead replacements for their 1st age units with the early Necromancy tech - not necessarily actual upgrades (they should still first be gaining Undead Halbadier with Polearms etc.) . They would of course be gaining some instant financial power due to the no-maintenance-required of the undeads. However, since ALL further units from that point on would cause population loss to build, I don't think that would unbalance them at all.
 
posted by drzoidberg
The governments in the MOD are locked and Tilea will be monarchy. If we fiddle with that the whole mechanics of the game will collapse. So I think we better leave it the way it is.

Actually you just add Republic as a 'locked' government too but that wasn't the point - just whether there was ever any interest in breaking up Tilea if there were any spots open (Tilea wasn't a unified state).

This is just a thought as well but Nehekhara (Khemri) amassed a huge empire in its human stage - I would be sure it had some time before it went undead (I always thought the beginning of the second period or very end of the first was appropriate even though ED thought a little earlier)
 
Antiochus VII said:
Actually you just add Republic as a 'locked' government...
It is not quite as simple as that. If Tilea were no longer a Monarchy and thus no longer had the tech Monarchy they would loose access to the techs Public Executions and Monasticism making them unable to build Gallows, Monestary and The Sisters of Shallya. On top of that they would also be unable to build the wonders The Moot, The Witch Hunt and Hall of Kings as they are exclusive to Monarchies.

I am not saying a solution couldn't be worked out to accomodate your idea and maybe it would even work out for the better, but it would certainly require tinkering with the mod on an entirely different scale than I suspect Mr.Do and Co. were planning on. ;)
 
Ooh a made some mistakes with my background i reread the edition last night so i can give a better idea of the Originality of the Khemri Lahmiens and Sylvanians.

Ok originaly there was a great desert empire ruled by High Priests, it seems that it was either a group of cities working together or a group of nations close enough to each other to work together, either way from this empire or region came all the current vampire hosts and the Khemri. The first to master Necromancy was Nagash who managed to keep it a secret or at least not such an evil thing for some time. After a while the other High priests decided they had to unite against him and went to war. Long fight short they in the end won with Prince Lahmizzar's son killed Nagash though Lahmizzar himself died. After this they raided his great black Pyramid that Nagash had constructed to hide his dark deeds. The daughter of Lahmizzar, Neferata now Queen of Lahmia, and the sister to the one who struck Nagash down was said to have found Nagash's dark book, which was said to contain all of the dark knowledge of Necromancy in the known world, and saved it from the flames (after it called to her of course). Originaly she wished to use it to fight the undead but eventually she became obbsesed with Nagash's quest for immortality. She created an elixir as dark as night that she consumed believing it to be the key to Immortality. She was wracked in pain that slowly turned to ecstasy as she lived but her heart stopped. Now her soul was exposed to the spirits on the plane of undeath she was unprepared for them and they quickly destroyed her defences and one such spirit got inside her. This gave her a great hunger for blood and so the Vampires were born. Long story short she created the other lines of Vampires, Sylvanians, Strigoi, Blood Dragons, Necarchs and the ones that arnt named. Nagash came back and the vampires allined with him after they had created their empire with them as gods. However the high priests united again and marched to war just before the battle the Vampires attacked each other and finding that they couldnt best each other fled across the world. Certain events occured that created the Vampires as they are today. The strigoi were forced to feed on animals and so their bodies changed. Some of the vampires that fates are unknown were said to have traveled to strange lands. There are tales of one making its way to Cathay and another to the Norse.

According to the Mag, the only Vampire kind that were heavily into raising the dead were the Necarchs, the others only brought a select few into the fold by making them actual vampires of a lesser kid with the Blood Kiss. Full Vampires, Trueborn, can only come into creation through drinking that dark elixir. So really it makes perfect sense that lots of their units are living and breathing, as in their empires they used living. Now a days in the WH world they cant oppenly create empires so place vampire agents among cities and towns and rely on the dead.

I could give a more detailed story but that would take some time and i dont want to bore people. One other thing i think the Blood Dragons are partr of Lahmias army in this mod when they in reality didnt work with Lahmia. Their leader who was one of the nice vampires is said to have killed a dragon and cured his disease when he drank its blood.
 
CyberChrist said:
Undeads may exist without necromancy taking place, however once someone start CREATING undeads they are performing an act of Necromancy whether they are attached to any school of the arts proclaiming to be necromancers or not.

Sorry, my bad. I was being a bit unclear. What I was trying to say is that I think that the discovery Necromancy is about organizing an educational system to effectivise teaching necromancy no matter how much any act of raising dead is an act of necromancy. This was a long way of saying that I think we should leave it as it is and just work in the new troops in the existing tech-tree.
 
Tilea is staying as it is in the mod, there is absolutely no way that will be changing. If we could try and keep the discussion to the current issues of adding to the mod it'd be helpful (So, thanks for nobody trying to start discussing how we deal with the Skaven or Beast of Chaos civs here beyond their role as barbarians- it's not going to happen before we put the add-on pack out).

"I could give a more detailed story but that would take some time and i dont want to bore people. One other thing i think the Blood Dragons are partr of Lahmias army in this mod when they in reality didnt work with Lahmia. Their leader who was one of the nice vampires is said to have killed a dragon and cured his disease when he drank its blood."

Blood Dragons are part of Lahmia because that's what works best with them. As you should know from your background reading, Ahborash was the leader of the royal guard of Lahmia, so he and his bloodline were indeed very closely linked to Lahmia. They aren't on good terms in the modern-day WH, true, but if Lahmia restored their civilisation beyond the Silver Pinnacle once again they would probably gladly use the Blood Dragons as their military leaders as before. There's not really any other way of putting the Blood Dragons in the game, they simply don't deserve a civ by their own.

But yeah, you don't really need to elaborate on the vampires all that much at all really! I'm a vampire count warhammer player myself, I know the backstory almost by heart and it's avaialble to read on GW's website anyway. But your post along with others did make me think that yes, we should restructure the undead to be mostly undead with justa little humanity thrown in. Good ideas here, especially from CyberChrist.
 
Yep know of Abhorash the slayer of the Dragon and cured himself, your right they dont deserve a civ as their simply arnt enough of them it would seem. Im not sure about more undead it depends on the actual undead civ. I think maybe sylvania should but it seems only the Necarchs prefered the dead to the liveing or simply themselves. The Khemri also may need more undead but i think with Lahmia we should show how not all vampires had hordes of undead... they had hordes of peasents and slaves.

I was wondering... with Civ 4 coming around the corner, maybe we should be thinking about that too?
 
Tyrion said:
I was wondering... with Civ 4 coming around the corner, maybe we should be thinking about that too?
No we shouldn't, because this mod is not for civ4.
 
aaglo said:
Tyrion said:
I was wondering... with Civ 4 coming around the corner, maybe we should be thinking about that too?
No we shouldn't, because this mod is not for civ4.

Agreed. Civ4 will be very different, and you won't be able to use any of aaglos creations. Besides you don't know what Civ4 will include, so don't plan anything untill the game has been released.

Converting a mod is no different than creating a whole new one. There is the same amount of work, keep that in mind.
 
I also hope that this mod development for Civ3 shouldn't die when civ 4 comes.
Civ 4 look graphically very different.
If Games Workshop makes some new models for the armies, those could be fun to include in this mod
 
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