What additional civilizations do you want in Civilization 5? [Post-BNW Edition]

[Iklabain]

Israel

My minorities and spies in other Civilizations
I like the idea of Israel Civilization in a game, but I've found proposed UA for them kinda borring. So I decided to freestyle here and make them realy unique. The base of this idea is the fact they used to live scattered all over the world and creating strong diasporas within foreign empires and countries. I wanted to project it in a game. My first idea was to give them unique settler unit, that can install jewish diaspora in City State generating gold and some IPs.
But I was afraid that this could affect game ballance. So I turned to new mechanics, a trade routes. Cargo Ships precisely. Idea is: They don't move so they cannot be plundered, they are establishing jewish diaspora in other cities and City States, to establish Diaspora in a city that belongs to the different civilization you must have open borders signed. Diaspora established in CS generates additional 40 IPs and while active makes your Influence with this CS degrade 25% slower than normal. Benefits generated by diaspora oposite to trade route generates revenue only for Your Civilization. Buffed Mossad spies and diplomats makes you strong enough to have your settlers 20% more expensive. Last element of this puzzle is Synagogue building with extra slot for a Great Scientist.

Leader: King Salomon
UA: Mossad
Spies grain expirience 50% faster. National Intelligence Agency degrades Influence in City-States 10% slower than normal. Settlers are 20% more expensive
UU: Jewish Diaspora - replaces Cargo Ship. Can install Diaspora in a different Civilization City or City-State. Diaspora in City-State gives +40 and degrades 25% slower than normal. Diaspora don't move and cannot be plundered. Diaspora generates revenue only for Your Civilization. Must have open borders to install Diaspora.
UB: Synagogue replaces Temple. +3 Great Scientist slot.

Why no star of David? Good work on the icons though. and I like your ideas but there's no Ukraine!

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

Why no star of David? Good work on the icons though. and I like your ideas but there's no Ukraine!

Thanks, and sorry for Ukraine
Star of David is more religious symbol imo.

 

[InsanelyApple]

Thanks, and sorry for Ukraine
Star of David is more religious symbol imo.

Most people here would argue against Israel having any connection to the modern state.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

Most people here would argue against Israel having any connection to the modern state.

Well, Firaxis seems to argue against Israel having any connection to the game in general That's only my little Idea

 

[Snes]

Israel

My minorities and spies in other Civilizations
I like the idea of Israel Civilization in a game, but I've found proposed UA for them kinda borring. So I decided to freestyle here and make them realy unique. The base of this idea is the fact they used to live scattered all over the world and creating strong diasporas within foreign empires and countries. I wanted to project it in a game. My first idea was to give them unique settler unit, that can install jewish diaspora in City State generating gold and some IPs.
But I was afraid that this could affect game ballance. So I turned to new mechanics, a trade routes. Cargo Ships precisely. Idea is: They don't move so they cannot be plundered, they are establishing jewish diaspora in other cities and City States, to establish Diaspora in a city that belongs to the different civilization you must have open borders signed. Diaspora established in CS generates additional 40 IPs and while active makes your Influence with this CS degrade 25% slower than normal. Benefits generated by diaspora oposite to trade route generates revenue only for Your Civilization. Buffed Mossad spies and diplomats makes you strong enough to have your settlers 20% more expensive. Last element of this puzzle is Synagogue building with extra slot for a Great Scientist.

Leader: King Salomon
UA: Mossad
Spies grain expirience 50% faster. National Intelligence Agency degrades Influence in City-States 10% slower than normal. Settlers are 20% more expensive
UU: Jewish Diaspora - replaces Cargo Ship. Can install Diaspora in a different Civilization City or City-State. Diaspora in City-State gives +40 and degrades 25% slower than normal. Diaspora don't move and cannot be plundered. Diaspora generates revenue only for Your Civilization. Must have open borders to install Diaspora.
UB: Synagogue replaces Temple. +3 Great Scientist slot.

I had thought of Israel's UA focussing on Diaspora in some way, but I don't think your proposal is that great. For one thing, there's no military UU. Every civ should have at least one military UU, if nothing else than for defense. Secondly, Israel seems pretty pigeonholed into a diplomatic victory here. You have two methods of decreasing city state influence decay, and more experienced spies, which are only really useful for rigging elections in the late-game. There's nothing that's just all-around useful. And I'm surprised you didn't take advantage of the existing religious follower mechanic in some way. Seems like that would be perfect for illustrating Diaspora.

I do agree with Iklabain in commending your civ icons. The menorah works well for Israel, as the Star of David is already in use as the icon for Judaism and the menorah is on the Emblem of Israel.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

Thanks for a comment Snes.
Thats true with lack of Unique Unit. Well, thats the price of diaspora. I had a same story with Tibet civ, but Tibet without special military unit it's rahter good idea for me. It captures tibetan mood. It maybe not works for Israel. You are 100% right with this doubled slowed influence decay. That's my inattention. When it comes to spies usefulness I must disagree. In BNW it might be a different story with World Congress and Diplomats. Anyway thanx for your opinions. I will try to fix it a little. But I will stick to the core idea - making Israel let's say "influential", rather than religious.


And menorah from my icon is exacly the same one from Emblem of Israel.

 

[Iklabain]

I do agree with Iklabain in commending your civ icons. The menorah works well for Israel, as the Star of David is already in use as the icon for Judaism and the menorah is on the Emblem of Israel.

(*Yoda Voice*) Agree always - you will... Hmmm.

But seriously, now that I think about it the menorah is a good idea separating Israel from Judaism. We don't want to have another Arabia deal now do we?

No we don't .

 

[Iklabain]

Here's a few pics for a potential Nubian leader, if they are from the dynasty that took over Egypt:

Spoiler :

Taharqa? No I don't think he's a good idea, pretty much everyone is set on a female leader such as Takahatenamun or Tiye, I think someone suggested another one a few pages back or on another thread... I can't remember.

 

[Emperor Joker]

Thanks for a comment Snes.
Thats true with lack of Unique Unit. Well, thats the price of diaspora. I had a same story with Tibet civ, but Tibet without special military unit it's rahter good idea for me. It captures tibetan mood.

Tibet wasn't completely defenseless, you know. Their heavy infantry at least was nothing to be sneezed at. Taken from Life Along the Silk Road by Susan Whitfield:

"They (the Tibetans) all wear chainmail armor. It's workmanship is extremely fine[...]strong bows and sharp swords cannot injure them[...]When one dies, another takes his place. To the end, they are not willing to retreat[...]Their archery is weak but their armor is strong."

Another excerpt:

"In their ranks were the iron chainmail Tibetan foot soldiers in the rear. They were almost impregnable to Chinese swords and arrows, only the long steel-tipped arrows of a Chinese longbow could hope to pierce it. Each Tibetan foot soldier carried a sword, a lance, daggers, and a sling[...]After several days of fighting the Chinese pushed the Tibetans back to the fortress and took the castle at a tremendous cost."

One more:

"The Tibetan infantry were the main threat. Heavily encased in armor, they were known for their bravery under attack[...]The Chinese and Uyghurs could make no headway against the Tibetans and as the battle progressed they became weak and dispirited. Then at last the Tibetan lines began to advance and a grey, ironclad mass of Tibetan infantry rolled forward relentlessly; routing the enemy."

There is also some talk of Tibetan cavalry, but it was nothing special and the Tibetans appeared to have used Turkish mercenaries for it. Here's something from Tibet: The Secret Continent by Michel Peissel:

"It seems that Tibetan blacksmiths produced the best armor of the period, consisting of fish scale-like semi-cylindrical metal plates sewn on to leather and cotton underclothing."

 

[cybrxkhan]

Taharqa? No I don't think he's a good idea, pretty much everyone is set on a female leader such as Takahatenamun or Tiye, I think someone suggested another one a few pages back or on another thread... I can't remember.

I don't think a female leader is as obvious as one of the Nubian pharaohs who ruled Nubia/Kush at its height. If they wanted a female leader, then sure, but I don't think a female leader is that obvious. Taharqa, Piye, etc. would be better choices.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

Tibet wasn't completely defenseless, you know. Their heavy infantry at least was nothing to be sneezed at. Taken from Life Along the Silk Road by Susan Whitfield:

"They (the Tibetans) all wear chainmail armor. It's workmanship is extremely fine[...]strong bows and sharp swords cannot injure them[...]When one dies, another takes his place. To the end, they are not willing to retreat[...]Their archery is weak but their armor is strong.

Another excerpt:

In their ranks were the iron chainmail Tibetan foot soldiers in the rear. They were almost impregnable to Chinese swords and arrows, only the long steel-tipped arrows of a Chinese longbow could hope to pierce it. Each Tibetan foot soldier carried a sword, a lance, daggers, and a sling[...]After several days of fighting the Chinese pushed the Tibetans back to the fortress and took the castle at a tremendous cost.

One more:

The Tibetan infantry were the main threat. Heavily encased in armor, they were known for their bravery under attack[...]The Chinese and Uyghurs could make no headway against the Tibetans and as the battle progressed they became weak and dispirited. Then at last the Tibetan lines began to advance and a grey, ironclad mass of Tibetan infantry rolled forward relentlessly; routing the enemy.

There is also some talk of Tibetan cavalry, but it was nothing special and the Tibetans appeared to have used Turkish mercenaries for it. Here's something from Tibet: The Secret Continent by Michel Peissel:

It seems that Tibetan blacksmiths produced the best armor of the period, consisting of fish scale-like semi-cylindrical metal plates sewn on to leather and cotton underclothing.

Wait a minute. Who said it was defenseless? It would be hard to belive that some Empire ever existed without a good army in real life. The question is: Must we find some unit for them IN A GAME - just becouse "it has to be a UU", or not. I think we don't need to. That's all about.

 

[Emperor Joker]

Wait a minute. Who said it was defenseless? It would be hard to belive that some Empire ever existed without a good army in real life. The question is: Must we find some unit for them IN A GAME - just becouse "it has to be a UU", or not. I think we don't need to. That's all about.

Their military achievement should at least be acknowledged.

 

[phaethon16]

The reason you have to have at least one aggressive UU is thatbuildings can't go obsolete, so once you build a building it's with you for the whole game. Units though let you dominate in one era alone, and pushes you to go on the aggressive in that period. Everybody goes to war, both in history and in the game. Giving a civ a UU is showing that side of history, while giving you a temporary advantage over your opponent. Giving a civ a unjt that isn't upgraded, two buildings, or a UB and UI is giving them two long-term advantages, which is neither realistic or fair.

 

[wigwam]

I don't think a female leader is as obvious as one of the Nubian pharaohs who ruled Nubia/Kush at its height. If they wanted a female leader, then sure, but I don't think a female leader is that obvious. Taharqa, Piye, etc. would be better choices.

I think a classical Kushite kandake would be a better choice than an ancient pharaoh. What's the different between pharaonic Nubia and Egypt? Better to focus on a period of their history that distinguishes them more clearly from their neighbors to the north. I'd want Amanirenas as my Nubian queen.

As for Tibet—

Their military achievement should at least be acknowledged.

Their military achievements should be the main focus of the civ (along with some kind of bonus related to hills/mountains). Tibetan Buddhism is interesting and all, but it's not influential or important in any way that lends itself to Civ 5's mechanics. The idea of Tibet getting bonuses to Great Prophets or missionaries is ridiculous; the religion is explicitly anti-proselytic. Stupas are found all over the Buddhist world; they're not specifically Tibetan. The Tibetan word is "chorten," although a gompa would be a more interesting UB. The Potala Palace is a huge gompa, basically; a fortress, not a pagoda.

The idea that Tibet's is a peaceful, cultured, spiritual society is a misapprehension. The current Dalai Lama is a good guy, and he's been a reformer all along, but before his tenure, and before the Chinese invasion, Tibet was a feudal hellhole—monks and nobles owned all the land and practiced debt peonage (or outright slavery, depending on whom you ask). Corporal punishment was common, including mutilation (limbs and ears hacked off) for relatively minor crimes. Not a happy place.

On the other hand, they had a huge medieval empire, fabulously smithed weapons and army, and a huge, highly effective army. They were as great a military power as China and India at times. Plus they have a long history of animal husbandry and agriculture at altitudes most people can barely breathe at.

 

[InsanelyApple]

The idea that Tibet's is a peaceful, cultured, spiritual society is a misapprehension. The current Dalai Lama is a good guy, and he's been a reformer all along, but before his tenure, and before the Chinese invasion, Tibet was a feudal hellhole—monks and nobles owned all the land and practiced debt peonage (or outright slavery, depending on whom you ask). Corporal punishment was common, including mutilation (limbs and ears hacked off) for relatively minor crimes. Not a happy place.

On the other hand, they had a huge medieval empire, fabulously smithed weapons and army, and a huge, highly effective army. They were as great a military power as China and India at times. Plus they have a long history of animal husbandry and agriculture at altitudes most people can barely breathe at.

This reminds me of a comic I saw a while ago.

Spoiler :

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

This reminds me of a comic I saw a while ago.

Spoiler :

Seems I was charmed by modern stereotype like king Theoden

So maybe give them bonus or during peace, and forward military units or lowered army maintance during war as UA, and
two UU. One military with conquer bonus, and other monk building monasteries in mountains?
How about that?

 

[Iklabain]

I don't think a female leader is as obvious as one of the Nubian pharaohs who ruled Nubia/Kush at its height. If they wanted a female leader, then sure, but I don't think a female leader is that obvious. Taharqa, Piye, etc. would be better choices.

I strongly disagree. The Nubian people were famous for their abnormal amount of female leaders and I think they should incorporate that. As of now we have not a single female leader in Africa and Nubia is the perfect empire for it.

 

[Iklabain]

Seems I was charmed by modern stereotype like king Theoden

So maybe give them bonus or during peace, and forward military units or lowered army maintance during war as UA, and
two UU. One military with conquer bonus, and other monk building monasteries in mountains?
How about that?

Dobre, Wyrażam zgodę.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

Dobre, Wyrażam zgodę.

 

[cybrxkhan]

I think a classical Kushite kandake would be a better choice than an ancient pharaoh. What's the different between pharaonic Nubia and Egypt? Better to focus on a period of their history that distinguishes them more clearly from their neighbors to the north. I'd want Amanirenas as my Nubian queen.

Eh, I still think Nubia is way more interesting when it took over Egypt, but that's just my personal preference. It's also what I think of when people say Nubia - I think of the powerful empire that basically revived old Egypt in its own way, not the post-26th dynasty folks who, while impressive, were not as impressive. There were still quite some differences over pharaonic Nubia and Egypt - they were as different as Sumer and the Hittites were - but I guess as you imply most people might not get the hint.

I strongly disagree. The Nubian people were famous for their abnormal amount of female leaders and I think they should incorporate that. As of now we have not a single female leader in Africa and Nubia is the perfect empire for it.

I guess. If they wanted a female leader. But as I say above I still think 26th dynasty Nubia is way more interesting than classical Nubia. But that's just my personal preference.