What are your thoughts on BitCoin?

Obviously investors feel differently than you. People being crying chicken little on bitcoin since it cost 10 bucks. Currency isn't supposed to "produce wealth", it's a medium. Lol @ "real money".

I can understand the hating considering all the people who coulve invested and didn't and want some satisfaction.

This is my actual interruption. In colloquial terms, 'investment' means 'buying something that will get me more money later'. And so, in this way, bitcoin trading is an investment where you're juggling uncertainty with a risk premium. It will generate you money later, you just don't know if it will be more or less than now :)

In economic terms, it's not an investment. In economics, an investment is something that will increase future supply or decrease future costs. Or at least, it tries to. Bitcoin doesn't do this. When you give money to someone for a bitcoin at best that money is being used to generate another bitcoin. In a roundabout way, you're subsidizing the updating of the blockchain, which allows the next set of transactions to be updated, but that's about it. And since the energy cost is vastly higher than the value of those transactions, basically no wealth is being created.

Compare that to any thing that's an actual investment. From getting a cavity filled early so that you avoid a root canal later to hiring someone to reshingle your roof. Those things are decreasing future costs or increasing present value. And so, in economic terms, we consider them to be an investment.
 
National sovereignty is not in any danger as long as the concepts are incapable of being a proper currency from a purely technical point of view without even consideration of the economical aspects. Individually, I have no problem with people speculating on Bitcoin. Globally, it is such a waste of energy, however, with only marginal benefits that it might be better for the world to ban unsustainable cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin.

That does not mean that there are no useful applications of the blockchain concept and Bitcoin certainly was a successful experiment in exploring the technology. But I believe that it is time to end this waste of resources.

I think that the reason why the chinese are banning these "cryptocurrencies" is not the waste of resources, but rather very real concerns about social instability after the ponzi scheme collapses. Lots of people "invest", lots of people suddenly discover that the riches they believed they had are gone, lots of people are angry... this can turn out to be a threat to a country, think Albania a few years back. So, national sovereignty concerns are not entirely misplaced.
 
Regarding ponzi scheme. People might think, and maybe rightfully so, that they are investing in the future of the technology, that at some point stops being wasteful, kinda like Tesla investors are pouring billions in, while Tesla doesn't bother turning a profit most of the time. Still, it worked perfectly fine for Tesla, why shouldn't it work for crypto's in years to come? I think there is time until current stock market tops, and in the meanwhile, tales of widespread adoption will be told through modern means of influencing masses.

With youtube, reddit and alike you don't have to sell it, it practically sells itself.
 
And? My mom could've bought Amazon back in the late 90s (and talks about it alot :ack: ). Im talking about money I made in the last 12 months

My point was that a lot of bitcoin investors act like it's this really cool speculative tech they just discovered and are way ahead of the trend with. You can just trade options online and accomplish pretty much the same things. And it's way easier to get your money back into your bank account since it's actually in USD (or your nation's currency).
 
Regarding ponzi scheme. People might think, and maybe rightfully so, that they are investing in the future of the technology, that at some point stops being wasteful, kinda like Tesla investors are pouring billions in, while Tesla doesn't bother turning a profit most of the time. Still, it worked perfectly fine for Tesla, why shouldn't it work for crypto's in years to come? I think there is time until current stock market tops, and in the meanwhile, tales of widespread adoption will be told through modern means of influencing masses.

With youtube, reddit and alike you don't have to sell it, it practically sells itself.

The difference is that there is a potential future market for electric cars and any company getting into the market early might have an advantage. Bitcoin just has no future as a currency (beyond the illegal market, where 10 dollars transaction cost may be acceptable) because of its design flaws to act as such. Whether any other cryptocurrency might work as a currency remains to be seen, but the speculation on and the resulting volatility of Bitcoin are not exactly inspiring confidence into that. Most people are buying Bitcoin to hoard them and get rich -- not to use it instead of a real currency. By now cryptocurrencies have the image of highly risky speculation targets and the more the Bitcoin price jumps around, the more this image will be reinforced. However, this is exactly the opposite you want to convey to the public if you want to convince them of using this instead of real currencies.

That said, I do not think it is a Ponzi scheme, because it lacks the fraudulent behavior that is associated with that. It is just an old-fashioned economic bubble, where the price of things has gone far beyond the real economic value.
 
My point was that a lot of bitcoin investors act like it's this really cool speculative tech they just discovered and are way ahead of the trend with. You can just trade options online and accomplish pretty much the same things. And it's way easier to get your money back into your bank account since it's actually in USD (or your nation's currency).
Have your options gone up 800% since you bought them?

It's plenty easy to exchange back into USDollars tho I did have a slight issue with Coinbase (since solved) while verifying my identity (I've moved a number of times and thus it's hard to remember my 'official' address)
 
Have your options gone up 800% since you bought them?

It's plenty easy to exchange back into USDollars tho I did have a slight issue with Coinbase (since solved) while verifying my identity (I've moved a number of times and thus it's hard to remember my 'official' address)


One question: up to this time, have you taken any profit out of bitcoin dealing? As in, what is your net balance, in actual money (i. e., excluding any bitcoin you have now), since the day you started up until now.

Most people will keep sinking more money into it, under the premise that "it will keep going up and this way I will make even more". Until one day...

That said, I do not think it is a Ponzi scheme, because it lacks the fraudulent behavior that is associated with that. It is just an old-fashioned economic bubble, where the price of things has gone far beyond the real economic value.

There is no one (visibly at least) sitting on top of the pyramid, but is is a scheme that relies exclusively on new entrants to put in money so that older participants can take away any profit. That suffices for me to classify it as a Ponzi scheme.
 
What happens during the next crash/bear market when holders of bitcoins have to sell to cover leveraged positions?

(hint, the same thing that happened since the tulip craze)
 
Once people start borrowing to buy bitcoins, you know that the dangers of the bubble popping are right about to be real.
 
but even if they aren't leveraged for bitcoin per se, as long as it's in a basket of assets there's still associated risk. In a down market, price movements across almost all asset classes correlates close to 1.
 
One question: up to this time, have you taken any profit out of bitcoin dealing? As in, what is your net balance, in actual money (i. e., excluding any bitcoin you have now), since the day you started up until now.
I paid about $2,400 for aprox 3 bitcoins. I sold 1 for $3,900 and have 2 left. So I made about $1,500 and can cash out the other two at any time (will wait til it reaches $4,500 and then sell one more, maybe 1.25 and hold the rest).

I know some people who think it will reach $50,000 but I think that's unlikely. I'll buy more if it drops to $2,000 tho
 
Good for you, at least you took something out of it already.

But I can't resist point out that you're tempted to go negative again in the expectation of making further profits. That was what I was saying usually happens in speculative bubbles.
 
Good for you, at least you took something out of it already.

But I can't resist point out that you're tempted to go negative again in the expectation of making further profits. That was what I was saying usually happens in speculative bubbles.
People have been saying the bubble is about to pop for years now (instead it's increased in price 100-fold). Even supposing it does crash there's no reason to think it won't hit $7 or $8000 or more before that.
 
It could easily hit that amount. Most people are engaging in a 'buy and hold' strategy, with new enthusiasts coming in all the time. I've ridden bubbles. The trick is to get out when your friends are getting in, or when you hear about people borrowing to buy into it.
 
The difference is that there is a potential future market for electric cars and any company getting into the market early might have an advantage. Bitcoin just has no future as a currency (beyond the illegal market, where 10 dollars transaction cost may be acceptable) because of its design flaws to act as such. Whether any other cryptocurrency might work as a currency remains to be seen, but the speculation on and the resulting volatility of Bitcoin are not exactly inspiring confidence into that. Most people are buying Bitcoin to hoard them and get rich -- not to use it instead of a real currency. By now cryptocurrencies have the image of highly risky speculation targets and the more the Bitcoin price jumps around, the more this image will be reinforced. However, this is exactly the opposite you want to convey to the public if you want to convince them of using this instead of real currencies.

That said, I do not think it is a Ponzi scheme, because it lacks the fraudulent behavior that is associated with that. It is just an old-fashioned economic bubble, where the price of things has gone far beyond the real economic value.

I do not see the difference. Transaction costs can be trimmed, technology inevitably advances, as a result some cryptos may evolve, free from multiple encumbrances, shared by most real currencies. Digital currency, which can be insta-transferred from one smartfone to another at negligible cost? People wanted that for a long time, the banks and the governments have been exclusively screwing with currencies for too long and now that the bitcoin has risen, the Hype is real. It's the new new thing. The market will take a shape, and these, who got in early will have the advantage. That's what crypto-investors think, similarly to Tesla investors. Who cares that most autogiants are competing with Tesla? Who cares that it will never, likely, become profitable, like Musk suggests, today? Nevermind all that, we're discussing a dream.

With ever-decreasing supply of new money, crypto tries to be both an asset and currency, like gold. You don't see real world currencies decreasing their supply.. that often. I see airlines and online shops accepting the new gold, inquired how local airline does it, they claim to exchange bitcoins into euro immediately on purchase, opting out of instability, obviously.

So, it's a bubble, big deal! Whenever that stopped anyone from doing stupid things.. as for the real economic value.. well, who can tell where it's at? If crypto manages to bite off 10% from real world counterparts, the market cap càn be in the trillions. The market tends to price things and that's the only way I know of to derive real value today. That, and the Oracle can tell. People have ideas about "real economic value", but we don't have to, see. Theres already market for that.
 
Have your options gone up 800% since you bought them?

It's plenty easy to exchange back into USDollars tho I did have a slight issue with Coinbase (since solved) while verifying my identity (I've moved a number of times and thus it's hard to remember my 'official' address)

Nvidia went up 600% since February last year, iirc. And that's just the stock.
 
Looks like some of the main haters in the finance industry are finally shutting up, guess it gets tiring being wrong year after year.
 
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