What can the Democrats do?

Are the folks here going to pay attention to the ramblings of the human advocating for a ANTI-EU, ANTI-NATO sentiment, a being that is still butthurt that the Communist Party got defeated and couldn't implement a Stalin style soviet dictatorship right after we kicked a dictator?
You want to wash dirty clothes here about a man and a party that never ruled against all the very well documented illegal, criminal stuff our socialist party, it's leaders and local mayors got into or about the terror attacks following 25 de Abril by communist terrorists.
I can smell you from a mile away...you got nothing to teach me!
Sometimes I think It's too bad we didn't get that communist dictatorship, we could be emulating Poland now.
 
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The new boogeymen who are to blame for not voting the way they should vote.
There's another bogeyman...folks that used not to vote coming to the urns voting "wrong".
"Democracy for me but not for thee":lol:
 
Are the folks here going to pay attention to the ramblings of the human advocating for a ANTI-EU, ANTI-NATO sentiment, a being that is still butthurt that the Communist Party got defeated and couldn't implement a Stalin style soviet dictatorship right after we kicked a dictator?
You want to wash dirty clothes here about a man and a party that never ruled against all the very well documented illegal, criminal stuff our socialist party, it's leaders and local mayors got into or about the terror attacks following 25 de Abril by communist terrorists.
I can smell you from a mile away...you got nothing to teach me!
Sometimes I think It's too bad we didn't get that communist dictatorship, we could be emulating Poland now.

Poland doing great apparently. Warsaw looks great along with Gdansk.
 
I mean a centrist can be a thing, I think. I'm not sure I don't count myself as a (left leaning) centrist. In a democracy, the issues that are going to be vexed issues are the ones on which about 50% of the population falls on either side. Our system was built so that we need significantly over 50% of people wanting something in order to move forward (it is intrinsically small-c conservative in that respect). That's just so we don't all start to implement something with a 51-49 vote, and then Larry changes his mind and the majority of the population doesn't want that thing any more and we have to start undoing all we've done. As a result, on the vexed issues, you're not going to be able to make any progress. A centrist just resigns himself to that reality and seeks out small-bore issues on which it is still possible to find 60-40 splits and make progress. That feels unsatisfactory, of course, because those big, population-splitting matters are still population-splitting. You just have to wait until popular opinion makes those closer to 60-40 and then you can take your shot at making progress on those.

(This model presupposes the good-faith willingness of all parties to abide by the workings of the system. Under McConnell and Trump and the Roberts Court, the system its itself is under assault. In such circumstances, one cannot operate as a centrist. It's an open question, in my mind, as to whether our system can survive this strain. If it does not, we will have a collapse, that benefits only 1% of the population (and not even them, really), and the rest will sit there wondering, "we had it so good before, what happened?" A few might remember how the system worked, and how it supported as-much-thriving-as-is-possible-to-secure, and try to persuade people that good-faith observation and operation of the old system was worthwhile, and in the state of extreme suffering 2/3 might be persuaded to give that a go and we might get it up and running again with a renewed respect for the importance of good-faith operation. But it will only happen after extreme suffering changes public opinion. This phase is, in my view, a likely scenario for my elder years; I won't live to see the recovery; I'll only experience the suffering.) (Possibly centrism and fatalism are psychologically connected.)
 
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Funnily enough, you've described the attitude of centrists towards leftists here to a T.
Nah, centrists tends to cast far-left and far-right as boogeymen, but not to blame them for the way they vote, rather to convince voters that they should vote for themserlves "to bar the extremists from power".
What I've seen here toward centrits, on the other hands (and how it's plainly obvious in this very thread), is more some sort of bitter feeling of contempt/betrayal as if they should have voted differently, and it's taken as a near-personal insult.

Or to cast it differently : centrists tend to see the extreme as natural enemies. Here the centrists seem to be seen as some sort of traitors.
 
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Funnily enough, you've described the attitude of centrists towards leftists here to a T.
Well, if I am in fact a centrist, then this does not describe my view toward leftists. I fault no one for how they vote. Each person's vote is sacrosanct in my view.

In 2016, I was able to convince @Lexicus to vote for the lesser of two evils; in 2024, I was not able to do so. I never faulted him for that second vote. (I even seriously explored the communist candidate for whom he said he was going to vote.)

I want the chance to argue the case (for settling for a less-than-ideal candidate), but once I've had that chance, I resign myself to people voting as they do.
 
Nah, centrists tends to cast far-left and far-right as boogeymen, but not to blame them for the way they vote, rather to convince voters that they should vote for themserlves "to bar the extremists from power".
What I've seen here toward centrits, on the other hands (and how it's plainly obvious in this very thread), is more some sort of bitter feeling of contempt/betrayal as if they should have voted differently, and it's taken as a near-personal insult.

Or to cast it differently : centrists tend to see the extreme as natural enemies. Here the centrists seem to be seen as some sort of traitors.
Well, if I am in fact a centrist, then this does not describe my view toward leftists. I fault no one for how they vote. Each person's vote is sacrosanct in my view.

In 2016, I was able to convince @Lexicus to vote for the lesser of two evils; in 2024, I was not able to do so. I never faulted him for that second vote. (I even seriously explored the communist candidate for whom he said he was going to vote.)

I want the chance to argue the case (for settling for a less-than-ideal candidate), but once I've had that chance, I resign myself to people voting as they do.
I was referring the the US in general, not OT.

And yes, I have seen plenty of venom directed at leftists from centrists towards leftists before and after the election, and I say this as someone who did vote tactically.
 
I was referring the the US in general, not OT.

And yes, I have seen plenty of venom direcedt at leftists from centrists towards leftists before and after the election, and I say this as someone who did vote tactically.

In the US centrists tend to blame leftists or "progressives" when the centrist candidate loses. The contradiction arises because they're implicitly saying they need "progressive" votes to win national elections, but then they rather obviously don't see progressives as a constituency who need to be wooed into the "big tent" they love to talk about.

This sort of illustrates the problem with the Democratic Party today, which is that its coalition is made of mutually-incompatible groups (in the sense that what pleases one section of the coalition is rat poison to another section) united only by opposition to Trump. I say opposition to Trump specifically and not MAGA/GOP because, post-2024, significant figures within the party appear willing to accommodate MAGA policy and ideology in the Democratic coalition. It remains to be seen how much appetite there is for this kind of thing among rank-and-file Democrats.
 
I was referring the the US in general, not OT.

And yes, I have seen plenty of venom directed at leftists from centrists towards leftists before and after the election, and I say this as someone who did vote tactically.
TBH, as long as there is this dumb FPTP system, people who would normally don't even be in the same party and have widely different opinions will still end up somehow forced together and I can see how this would cause feeling of bitterness and betrayal.
 
is it better to form coalitions of power before an election or after?
 
I mean a centrist can be a thing, I think. I'm not sure I don't count myself as a (left leaning) centrist. In a democracy, the issues that are going to be vexed issues are the ones on which about 50% of the population falls on either side. Our system was built so that we need significantly over 50% of people wanting something in order to move forward (it is intrinsically small-c conservative in that respect). That's just so we don't all start to implement something with a 51-49 vote, and then Larry changes his mind and the majority of the population doesn't want that thing any more and we have to start undoing all we've done. As a result, on the vexed issues, you're not going to be able to make any progress. A centrist just resigns himself to that reality and seeks out small-bore issues on which it is still possible to find 60-40 splits and make progress. That feels unsatisfactory, of course, because those big, population-splitting matters are still population-splitting. You just have to wait until popular opinion makes those closer to 60-40 and then you can take your shot at making progress on those.
The words are ever evolving but this is being "moderate". You aren't positioned in the center equating "both sides", you are moderating your ferver for change but the directionality is "consensus progressive", which is the policy position of like 70% of Americans, and the "team" of like 55%.
(This model presupposes the good-faith willingness of all parties to abide by the workings of the system. Under McConnell and Trump and the Roberts Court, the system its itself is under assault. In such circumstances, one cannot operate as a centrist. It's an open question, in my mind, as to whether our system can survive this strain. If it does not, we will have a collapse, that benefits only 1% of the population (and not even them, really), and the rest will sit there wondering, "we had it so good before, what happened?" A few might remember how the system worked, and how it supported as-much-thriving-as-is-possible-to-secure, and try to persuade people that good-faith observation and operation of the old system was worthwhile, and in the state of extreme suffering 2/3 might be persuaded to give that a go and we might get it up and running again with a renewed respect for the importance of good-faith operation. But it will only happen after extreme suffering changes public opinion. This phase is, in my view, a likely scenario for my elder years; I won't live to see the recovery; I'll only experience the suffering.) (Possibly centrism and fatalism are psychologically connected.)
Making those who embrace dynamic centrism letting or even wanting the pro autocrats and theocrats to win. Wanting whichever side is dominant to dominate faster so that the master can be supplicated in return to their immunity to attention.
Or to cast it differently : centrists tend to see the extreme as natural enemies. Here the centrists seem to be seen as some sort of traitors.
Centrists embrace the extreme, just paint themselves as being outside the target.

It's simple math. sum(wing_positions) / count(population) = centrist_position.

People with stable policy values are spread across the spectrum, mostly toward the left before it branches or splinters into a million Judeah's People's Liberation Fronts. Many of those people call themselves centrists. But whether they are or aren't depends on where the center is.

If all the Republicans rush toward the extreme wing, you have 35% of the population hanging out with Adolph, same playbook, same speed, open about it. They're excited, they can do the thing they always wanted. So now the middle policy position among everyone, those with stable policy values and those who chose to move rightward for their movement, is off the deep end. The centrists, who find clever rhetorical ways equate everything, are now deep into rightwing territory criticizing the way in which our political freedoms and civil rights are being stripped, but saying leftist extremists are the threat to watch out for.

Stable moderates who were once in the center are now distant the "centrist" position, they don't consider anything "mainstream" Republicans say at all. They might want to progress society incrementally, usually view a North European influence to be a good direction generally. The dynamic centrist meanwhile now views the stable moderate position as the leftwing position to only half accept. That somehow a good synthesis is between militant ICE and its extra judiciary efforts and a strict immigration system. The centrist takes the Republican talking points at face value, and repeats the ones that are design to "sound" centrist as their own position. Every lie JD Vance tells to sound "reasonable", while he does something off the deep end, is the centrist position. Ever moving, shifting, to be the moat around the rightwing castle. Or leftwing, if the left is strong enough.

It is up to those with values to unite and be strong, the centrists can never be counted upon.

There is an inertia problem.The Republicans by their nature can suddenly lurch right, and pull the centrists with them. The left cannot. Our differences branch too far, our core agreement just simply isn't radical at all. We cannot lurch the center back, we can only be resonant and in harmony enough to be heard more clearly than the right's position. Our wing's party has to cater to the frustration that we as a whole have more stable values and seek compromise.

On a practical level this means the center is just this moving target between "normal" and "radical right", dictated by the right.

So to the inertia– the centrists' voices are part of the voices that control where the centrists are. The right lurches right, says radical new stuff, the centrists lurch right, start saying the previously radical stuff in the new way. They're hearing their own voices. Even when the left concentrates its message — its one power in the discourse — the centrists are hearing the far rightwing voices and their own rightwing voices, and aren't well pulled back now are they? It would take a collapse of the rightwing voices for the centrists to leave for it to be a quick return the middle-wing position.
 
I was referring the the US in general, not OT.
The off topic centrist is pretty leftwing in the scheme of western politics, and also isn't as Erika put it a Centrist™ to off topic. Most everyone here has stable values, even stable policy values, on all sides of the aisle.

So probably a good time to bust out "ordinal vs cardinal". Ordinal being what order you are. In this case, take a million people, the centrist king and queen are numbers 500,000 and 500,001.

But the cardinal position, fixed to the measurement, the center-wing position on a fixed compass would be like 0.00. The ordinal Centrist™ might be 0.7 rightwing because the rightwingers all lurched to 0.95, while the ordinal left are all over the place, from -1 to +0.7.

In CFC it's the opposite of course. The ordinal center position in the past 5 pages of this thread is like:... Ajidica? But Ajidica's cardinal position is like, I dunno. -0.4? That's 1.1 wings away, that's outside the bounds loony tunes left compared to a 2025 Centrist™. And if MAGA collapses into infighting when Trump collapses, suddenly Ajidica is the center left to the centrists when they snap back. Ajidica meanwhile hasn't moved an inch.
 
The off topic centrist is pretty leftwing in the scheme of western politics, and also isn't as Erika put it a Centrist™ to off topic. Most everyone here has stable values, even stable policy values, on all sides of the aisle.

So probably a good time to bust out "ordinal vs cardinal". Ordinal being what order you are. In this case, take a million people, the centrist king and queen are numbers 500,000 and 500,001.

But the cardinal position, fixed to the measurement, the center-wing position on a fixed compass would be like 0.00. The ordinal Centrist™ might be 0.7 rightwing because the rightwingers all lurched to 0.95, while the ordinal left are all over the place, from -1 to +0.7.

In CFC it's the opposite of course. The ordinal center position in the past 5 pages of this thread is like:... Ajidica? But Ajidica's cardinal position is like, I dunno. -0.4? That's 1.1 wings away, that's outside the bounds loony tunes left compared to a 2025 Centrist™. And if MAGA collapses into infighting when Trump collapses, suddenly Ajidica is the center left to the centrists when they snap back. Ajidica meanwhile hasn't moved an inch.

I also want to point out that in practice the idea that people can be sorted on a single spectrum where the edges are extreme and the center is "moderate" is complete nonsense! Americans have all kinds of incoherent and contradictory views. How do you plot someone on the compass or ordinally when they believe something like "the filibuster is a pillar of our Republic but also the Sacklers should be executed by firing squad and we should enforce immigration law with trial by combat"?? It's impossible! The triangulators fail to understand that politics is a game played by rules that change over time, which is actually good because that's what makes politics dynamic. But the failure of the "median voter" guys to understand this has led to a situation where the Republicans can be seen by a majority as toxic Nazis, but people still hate the Democrats even worse because the average man on the street respects a toxic Nazi more than a guy who's openly telling you he has no convictions whatsoever and will take any position that appears to be indicated by polling in the current election cycle.
 
The words are ever evolving but this is being "moderate". You aren't positioned in the center equating "both sides", you are moderating your ferver for change but the directionality is "consensus progressive", which is the policy position of like 70% of Americans, and the "team" of like 55%.
That's fine. I've never felt very good at using these labels to describe myself. No, I would never equate both sides; one side is off its rocker!
 
is it better to form coalitions of power before an election or after?
I wish coalitions were not in play because the circus displayed by political parties and their fratricidal battles hides a very important fact:
They don't really care about us!
 
Funnily enough, you've described the attitude of centrists towards leftists here to a T.

Well ive been accused of worse but vs Trump im voting blue no matter who. Hilary, Biden, Sanders, AoC I don't care.

Prefer Aoc or Sanders (2016 anyway) bt theyre still constrained by house/senate seats and the rest of the democrats.
 
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