What civs are missing from Civ3?

[Shockwave]

Originally posted by sween32
Again, Inca and Ethiopia are consistant! Thank god! I'm already way too deep in making their leaderheads to stop now!

You're right, the Scots do deserve to be in it. Hell, I've made Robert the Bruce, and they'll be on my personal game. But, I'm not ready to commit to them for being on the elite list of civs that were left out. After all, they were Celts who defeated the Picts and eventually became the Scots. And the Celts are in PtW.

Aye true.. Hmm.. PICTS!! WE NEED A PICTISH CIV!!!

Just kidding (well I still think they'd be cool come to think of it).

 

[Shockwave]

http://www.civ3.com/ptwexpansion.cfm

 

[Kal-el]

I just emailed Mike B. about the max number of civs and here is his response.

"The default number of civs in the single-player game will not be changed in PTW. Thus, you can have 4, 6, 8, 12, or 16 civs (including the human player), depending on world size. Using the editor, you can increase the number of civs allowed on any world size to 31 (including the human player). For multiplayer, we are still working on determining the max. civs allowed but it will be no more than 8. Note that the barbarians are not taken into account in any of the above statements; if you consider the barbarians a
civ, then add 1 to each of the previous numbers."

PS: the 8 PTW Civs are:
Arabian
Carthagians
Celts
Mongol
Korean
Ottoman
Spanish
Viking

 

[Shockwave]

A 31 civ map could get reaaaaaaaaaaally messy.

So from my personal list we can drop one since it's only seven new civs after the PtW lot.. I'll drop my home civ then *waves bye-bye to Scotland*

 

[sween32]

that's ok, shockwave. after the leaderheads are done for the final 7 we decide on, then i plan on making a scotland vs. england scenario with thomas_2001.

 

[Senoj]

I'm glad to see the cartaginians on there. Sween32's leaderheads are coming along a treat and we are all brimming with ideas. (Well most of us )

PS Thanx Shockwave. I'll visit it later on.

 

[Kal-el]

It all depends on how big the map is you are playing with. And remember just becaue you start out with 31 civs doesn't mean that 31 are going to make it to the modern age.

Shockwave, once you get your hands on PTW you can always edit the Celts and change them to the Scotts.

 

[Senoj]

Good Point Kal-el. If your anything like me there will only be about 16 left!

 

[Shockwave]

Kal-el > True Guess that would mean a lot of conflict in Europe to start with which is I guess quite accurate. Now to add to the wish list - "Civilizations that emerge at a later date". I'll see what the Celtic civ is like, though I always seen Scotland as a Scientific/Industrious civ rather than the religious/milataristic of the Celts (yeah I could edit that as well I suppose ;P ) Now where did I put those Teutons and Moors...

Sween > Looking forward to it, I started a Scottish civ mod a while back but lack of time forced me to abandon it, by the time I got back into Civ and back on these forums many people already had ideas and starts of mods going so I figured I'd leave it and watch

 

[Shockwave]

On a side note related to my thoughts about Mesopotamia as a civ I found this site:
http://www.mesopotamia.co.uk/menu.html
Good info on it for anyone interested.

 

[JBearIt]

Originally posted by Kal-el
My choices come from no ethnic or national affiliation but are based simply game balance given the above presumptions.


The European Civs:
-----------------------
Poland:
My choice for an additional European civ is the Polish. Given my above presumptions certain worthy civs like the Portuguese and the Dutch and numerous others were less than optimal. As has been noted before, Europe is crowded already and PTW is going to make it even more so. Where to put the Celts, Ireland? Or the Continent? The Continent is where they started but they are more easily associated with Ireland. Either place is pretty tight, but they are going to be in the game so we accept that and move on. That doesn’t mean that we should follow in Firaxis’ footsteps here and try and cram in other civs into tight locations.

.

Poland would make a good civ. Afterall, Poland-Lithuanian did hold onto a fair chunk of territory for awhile. Plus JimmyH has already posted a good animated Hussar unit that can be the UU. Or as I suggested earlier in this thread, there can be a Slavic civ that includes Poland and the Hussar.

 

[Antiochus VII]

Just a thought, but considering the unique traits/units/interactions of each civ might help decide who should be in, since the more original and interactive (given real locations)
would be the most enjoyable to play. Some suggestions (and opinions):

Inca Expansionist/Industrious
UU: Slinger (3-1-1?) or a warrior/spearman variant based on the bronze mace favored by their warriors
RELATIONS: only with Spanish and late at that - but they stand also for Chimu, Tihuanaco, etc, etc
VERDICT: IN as they represent a whole culture region (plus the unique twist of playing Andes region - and doing without horses!)

Ethiopia/Axum Religious/Commercial
UU: would actually prefer an elephant here (at least one was used in Arabia in the 6th century) but no real standout here
REL: Egypt, Rome, Persia, Arabs even before 600 plus English (minor war) later
VERDICT: IN, too much history here and this region really needs at LEAST one civ to fill it

Mali/Songhai Commercial?/?
UU: ?
REL: Arabs, western colonial powers later?
VERDICT: MAYBE: would really like to add one more west african civ and one of these is probably the best choice, but they're largely isolated and would really need a good unit to add to "fun" factor of playing (and to justify leaving another one out)

Tibet Militaristic/Religious
UU: Cataphract - very heavy cavalry - (5-3-2?) which was the heart of Tibets armies during its medieval empire
REL: India, China, Turks?(pre Ottoman), Mongols.
VERDICT: MAYBE. Fun location and challenge in the mountainous region, but unique unit spinoff (from knight) is already crowded. They need Chinese to change to more realistic Commercial/Scientific and ANYTHING but the "RIDER" (WORST unique unit ever!!!) to be a really good alternative.

Poland Militaristic/Expansionist?
UU: Cavalry upgrade (parallel to Cossack), perhaps 7-3-2?
REL: Germany, Russia, Vikings(Sweden), Ottomans
VERDICT: IN? unless bumped for Hungary. Huge empire (with Lithuania) and lots of history. Also flexible after Militaristic as far as I can see (but with "heroism being the Polish vice" that one trait's locked in I think)

Hungary ?/?
UU: Horse Archer (4-2-3?)
REL: French. Poles, Ottomans, Germans
VERDICT: IN? unless bumped to keep just Poland. History back to middle ages and incessant raiding of western Europe by mobile horse archers would make for interesting play. Real "tweener" for me on civ type though.

Judea Commercial/Religious
UU: Zealot light infantry 3-2-2?(that fought Seleucids/Romans) or any modern one that fits (Merkava perhaps)
REL: Egypt, Babylon, Greeks(Seleucids), Romans, then later Arabs
VERDICT: IN?, though they crowd an already full region. Would really enjoy another modern unique unit though.

now either
Dutch Commercial/?
UU: possibly a frigate upgrade, more likely caravel
or
Portugese Commercial/?
UU: definitely caravel upgrade (2-2-3?)

VERDICT: one of these IN? Problem here for me is these civs don't stand out from one another. Dutch time of dominance followed close on Portugese time of dominance with similar "style" of empire. (in fact the Dutch occupied part of the Portugese one). Wouldn't take both for sure if Poland and Hungary would be left out - unless it was a 1492-ish mod of course.

Maya Religious/Scientific
UU: Warrior or Archer variation again?
REL: Aztecs somewhat, spanish
VERDICT: very MAYBE, great cuture but would crowd central american region badly. Unique unit might be repetitive as well, and couldn't be given stats that'd outdo Aztecs militarily (make Jaguar warrior a 2-1-1? or 2-1-2? as a fix?).



others I lack 'game ideas' for:

Macedon - (militaristic, commercial) - too tied up with Greeks as it is now and too like the Romans (civ traits, UU Phalangite 3-3-1?) for some. But I myself will include them, perhaps with a companion cavalry offshoot (3-2-2?) as well. (my user name is a 'Seleucid fan' giveaway I'm sure - of COURSE they're in MY mod!)

Polynesian - a very unique and challenging situation for sure, but very difficult for play balance. It'd be fun to found Easter Island and run an early maritime 'empire' though.

Srijava - (commercial, religious?) dominant in Indonesia for hundreds of years, controlled China-India trade route. No real idea on an unique unit, perhaps an eastern tpe of caravel?Definitely would fill a gap in terms of highly populated regions.

Khmer empire - similar to Srijava; Angkor Wat gives them a "fun factor" edge versus the equally worthy Thais or Vietnamese. Would fill a neglected but highly civilized/populated region, but I have no suggestions on a new unique unit here. (why do I always want to use elephants in these situations)

Sioux - would like to include them or other north american tribes, but I think the Iroquois stole their unit. I'd probably have to give them the mounted warrior and give the Iroquois a foot combat unit that treated all terrain as roads (archer 2-1-1?)


Anyway, a few ideas and examples to think about.

 

[Veera Anlai]

Well I'm already working on a Polynesian civilization. Originally, it was going to be just the Hawaiians, but I can adjust that to encompass the entire Polynesian 'civilization'

On further reflection though, Kamehameha might've been a better leader choice, but I'm already nearly finished with the animated leaderhead for Queen Liliuokalani.

 

[sween32]

Here's a complete list of the civs we have decided should be in the game, or people have PM'd me about.

The ones that have a * next to them have already "clinched" the final list. The rest need to be discussed on who should be elimated, and who should be excepted.

Inca *
Ethiopia *
Polynesians *
Judea *
Dutch
Portugal
Mali or Songhai
Tibet
Hungary
Poland
Romania
Maya
Souix
Aberiginee
Saracen
Thailand
Czechs

I think Tibet should be in, now that Antiochus has provided us with a UU idea which jimmyh has already made, and it would be fun to have a child leader. As far as a civilization, Tibet has had much impact on the world for many reasons. It has spread it's culture and religious ideas, with much impact in the United States for the past few decades, and has managed to stay the same willingly since only God knows when.

The reason why I have yet to put Maya on the list is because, although they were a great civilization, Aztecs are already in it. To me, it should either be the Inca or the Mayans and the Inca are the furthest culterally and physically from the Aztecs.

I don't know much about Polish history, that's probably why I'm hesitant to add them. To me, Poland is a country of despair and sadness from the Holocaust, victim of meathead jokes from All In the Family, and the birth place of the Pope. But that's from my own arrogance. Besides, just like the Mayans are too close and like the Aztecs, the Poles are right next to Germany.

I do agree that either the Dutch or Portugese should be in the game, but not both. And we still need to decide whether it will be Mali or Songhai.

What I have just said isn't the final verdict, I'm putting together a diplomatic list, I'm not a dictator. Feel free to yell at me or explain why you don't agree with my opinions.

 

[Senoj]

I think the other 4 to be added in order of Priority are;

1) Aberiginee
2) Tibet
3) Portugal

I NEED the Aberiginees in!

 

[Senoj]

I STRONGLY Detest on the Dutch Idea. It would Overcrowd the allready crowded Europe. I mean, They have the Vikings to the North and the Germans to the South. I think you should leave this civ out.

I also disagree on the Thailand civ. Thailand is small and worthless and should be left to the Chinese. (My Opinion) More time should be spent filling up Oceana with civs like the ABERIGINEES.

Poland is Ok i guess. It would be between the Russians and the Germans and is more accurate. However I still fear for Overcrowding of Europe. Even though it is on the outskirts.

The Saracens are OK but the Babylonians have most of their territory. Maybe you could have it as a replacement. They were a major force in the Crusades.

 

[sween32]

Sorry, Senoj, there's only 3 left. 4 have already been excepted. There can be only 31 civs, and we can only add 7 on top of Civ3's 16 and PtW's 8. The editor can handle 32 but one of them is Barbarians, and the civ chooser box can handle 32 spaces but one of them is the Random button.

I'm interested, why do you need the Aberiginees? A mod? I think they're a fascinating civilization, and I'd love to play as them with a dart-blowing UU in a mod or scenario (an archer with an extra movement, basically a war chariot that doesn't need the horse resource and is in the archer upgrade system), but a top civilization they are not. Sure, there is a whole continent that's being left out, but there are other civilizations who deserve to be in this game. I'll be glad to make an Aberiginee leaderhead after these 7 are done if somebody agrees to make their UU, because like I said, I would love to play as them.

 

[JBearIt]

Originally posted by sween32


I do agree that either the Dutch or Portugese should be in the game, but not both. And we still need to decide whether it will be Mali or Songhai.

Although I would like to see both in the game, and both civs have their strong points I guess one argument in favor of selecting the Portuguese is that they left behind a larger colonial legacy in the form of Brazil, a huge country (in both population and area) that still speaks Portuguese today. And yes, I know that the Dutch held onto Indonesia for awhile but Dutch is not the main language of that nation.

 

[Senoj]

I mostly play world maps and normally as a European civ. (Normally the English).

A) Because one of my strategic moves is to send settlers to Australia. Now all that I'm faced with are barbarians which are a real pushover. I would like a more challenging opponent.

B) Because as you said it would be really cool. I agree on the UU but sadly I can't make it as I don't know how. Maybe we could create a Unit Request Thread?

C) Because as you said Oceana is left bare. When I play, not even the Indians, Japenese or the Chinese go into Oceana! Infact Japan normally just stays in Japan!

D) I think they would be more important than any other European Civ or even an Asian for that matter!

Senoj

 

[Senoj]

I agree, I would rather see the Portugese than the Dutch.


PS: Sween32, how do you make your leaderheads? A certain program?