What civs are missing from Civ3?

Originally posted by Veera Anlai
Queen Liliuokalani is the most recognizable of Polynesian leaders...
Who..? :scan:
The only reason she is recognizable is because most modern High School History books include her in the chapter about Manifest Destiny. The way that the United States decimated the Hawaiian Monarchy is a great example of the philosophy.
So, are you saying the reason you don't know Songtsen Gampo, is because the US never decimated Tibet? ;)
Of course my ignorance stems from the fact that my history books in Public School (to my best knowledge) never even devoted so much as a quarter of a page to the Hawaiian kingdom. So recognizability would be a very relative matter, it seems. Of course the amount of lines spent describing Queen Lili in American history books, were probably spent depicting the life of Otto Bismarck over here in dark Europe, so that's why you may think the German leader is not a good choice :D
I'm very near finishing an animated leaderhead of Queen Lili.
Now that is a different matter entirely - finally a sound argument. I'm looking forward to seeing it :)
 
Ah, the History Book... All our troubles stem from thee ;-)
Anyways, I've never had a good World History teacher. All my previous teachers were simply sports coaches who were thrown into a History class due to budget cuts. So my World History class was extremely... Lacking. But my American History teachers have been very qualified and interesting to listen to; we learned a lot about the Native Americans and Polynesia. We spent a while on Hawaii and got to see the issue of annexation from three different sides; the native Hawaiian's side, the American settlers' side, and the American government's side. It was interesting and I read more about it on my own time.

But I digress... My World History is much worse than my American-related history.

Oh, and here's pics of Queen Liliuokalani so far; I just finished rendering all the animations today. Now I just have to create the .PCX images ^_^

Lilibunch.jpg
 
Well, anyone who can draw like that, is excused for not knowing about Songtsen Gampo ;)

Excellent work - looking forward to seeing the animations :goodjob:
 
hmmm my problem is. in syudying the polynesian migration. the sandwich islands *hawaii* where the last of the islands really to be landed on and the monarchy of hawaii was very young and had very little history compared to the other islands. when the english claimed it.

and if a leader should be brought in from hawaii i would think King Kamehameha the first king of the hawaiian islands. and also known as the rgeat by his people would be the first choice
 
These are the civs I will be creating for civ3mod:

Rome - OK
Greece - OK
Japan - OK
China - OK
Russia - OK
Germany - OK but Grossdeutchland
France- OK
India - OK - but Agra capital
Persia - OK leader to Cyrus
Zulu - changed to Ethiopia (old name for Sub-Saharan [i.e.Black] Africa) to encompass other Black African civs
{I'd like to have different Black African civs like the Mali and Kush,
but, honestly, I'd prefer to use the space for the civs below)
Egypt - OK
Iroquois - changed to Native Americans to encompass other tribes
Aztec- changed to Meso-America to encompass the Maya, OLmecs, etc
Babylon - changed to Mesopotamia to encompass Assyrians, Sumerians, Akkadians, etc
America - OK, but including Canada
England - OK

Vikings - changed to Scandinavia
Mongols - not sure
Celts - OK but I'll replace their poor city list with my own one
Ottomans - changed to Turks
Arabs - OK
Spain - OK
Carthaginians - OK
Koreans - NOT OK - changed to either the Tibetans or the Khmer

NOW MY LIST:

Inca
Israel
Aboriginal Australia
Polynesia
Scots
Portugal
either: Slavs, Latin America or Netherlands
(also tempted for Goths)
 
Slavs, Latin America, or Netherlands? Well...that's not a hard choice. The Netherlands it should be.

Korea was a good choice for a civ, Calgacus. Certainly more important historically than the Tibetans or the Khmer.
 
On the subject of leaders and historical awareness:

Why not use this opportunity to educate the civ community. Just because people may recognize one “leader” more than another, does not necessarily equate to the more recognizable individual being a better choice. I see no reason for not using the mods as tools for disseminating historically accurate information.

Since we are the ones making these mods, why not pick the greatest leaders for these new civs. I know we have civers from all over the world on these boards, so why not take this opportunity to educate the rest of us on who you consider was your civ’s greatest leader.
Just because most people might consider a leader obscure, people in the know will know that that “obscure” leader is a better choice than some more “recognizable” leader, and we as a community have our level of awareness raised that much more by including the “obscure” leader. By using the “obscure” leader and including a decent civilopedia entry, that civilization’s history is done real justice and the mod creator doesn’t look like an uneducated country bumpkin.

I know, that I do not know everything about all these new civs that are being proposed, and I would not dare to suggest that I know who should be the leader of most of them. I have some ideas about a few of them, but I defer to those people who are more knowledgeable. I do know, that Joan of Arc was never a Head of State, she lead the French army for a short time, but that does not qualify her to be a leader in Civ3. She could be added in the Great Leaders list, but not the Civ Leader. Likewise, Ghandi is a horrible choice, as far as I am concerned. He lead a peaceful revolution, but he is an inappropriate choice for a game such as Civ3 that involves much more warfare than Ghandi would ever approve of. Having one of the most peaceful people of the 19th and 20th Centuries.

So, for the betterment of the community, I suggest that we not necessarily go with the “obvious” choice, and instead dig a little deeper and provide an educational experience along with a fun gaming experience.
 
Originally posted by Shockwave
For the Tibetan UU, you could have a "Tibetan Monk" :) Notice how the vast majority of the UU's come from the same period as the leader?

Tibetan Monk 0/4/1
Required Advance: Monotheism
Required Resource: None

Monotheism? Since when has buddhism been monotheistic?:crazyeye:
 
Monotheism? Since when has buddhism been monotheistic?
Since I decided it was because I have little to no knowledge of it :) My knowledge of Buddhism extends to "There's a fat guy called Buddah" (trust me, that's more than I know about most if not all religons these days). Figured it was one god (Buddah) hence a Monotheistic religion.. Unless there's more, in which case it's a Polytheistic religion..
 
Actually "Monotheism" is a safe enough advance to use for this unit since it really should denote a stage of development in Religious Thought, not a particular idea. The Persian Zoroastrians for example weren't MONOtheistic, but their religion was quite sophisticated.
 
-Ceremonial Burial--Animism and very basic mother-worship.
-Mystisism--Basic concept, such as Spirits of the environmental forces, but not as specific as Athena or Ra.
-Polytheism--Many Gods, more developed version of Mystisism.
-Monotheism--One God.
-Theology--One God who sent a Messiah(Jesus, Moses, Mohammed, and Buddha).
 
ok first a buggah monk? a peaceful priest as a fighting unit? with higher defensece stats then a pike man?

somehow i dont think so.

even if we discuss buddhist religion i think it is more closer to philosophy like Confucianism then monothesism or polythesim

thats just my thoughts
 
Originally posted by ChaoticWanderer
ok first a buggah monk? a peaceful priest as a fighting unit? with higher defensece stats then a pike man?

somehow i dont think so.

even if we discuss buddhist religion i think it is more closer to philosophy like Confucianism then monothesism or polythesim

thats just my thoughts

It seems to be the typical western response to classify Buddhism as a philosophy apparently on the grounds that some interpret it has negating the existance of any kind of "god" or emphasizing a way of life over some sort of "faith". This really is a misconception. The fact is that Buddhism isn't one single idea that you can easily point to and say "Hey, this is Buddhism and this is not". There are almost as many varieties of belief-systems that call themselves Buddhist as there cultures that supposedly adhere to it and a religion is defined by the people who practise it, not the people of stand-outside looking in and judging it from their own cultural biases. The Tibetan variety has almost no parallel to that variety practiced in Sri Lanka for example. What is even more astounding is that a Buddhist in one culture often does not regard as Buddhism the beliefs held by someone from a different "Buddhist" culture. And in almost all cases the religion as understood by the uninitiated masses is completely contrary to the understanding held by the initiates themselves. Buddhism has adapted itself to the host culture probably more so than any other religion and in the process has more often than not incorporated the deities, beliefs, iconography, and rituals of the pre-buddhist faith. To separate these out from what "westerners" decide to pick and choose and classify as Buddhism and say, "Hey, that's not REAL Buddhism" is really an insult to the culture practising it. In this sense, Buddhism, as found in its native environments, is truly a Religion(s).

As far as Buddhist monks as a fighting unit - I suggest a study of Tibetan history is in order. It has been a fairly frequent phenomenon for one sect to violently suppress another. Many of the monasteries were virtually cities. Few of the 'monks" actually received any kind of substantial education in Buddhism beyond the basic meditation. And while I don't doubt that many of the Lamas were truly extradinarily enlightened, they were not as prevalent as western imagination would have it. For many it was just a position of power and corruption went right along with it. Power, corruption, thousands of easily manipulated "peasants" at your disposal - monk armies did happen and make perfect sense in this game.

Ok... sorry I rambled, but it is a field I studied in so there's my 5 cents.
 
In my "home-made" mod I'm plan to include
Poland (Europe)
Phoenicia (Mediterranean)
Armenia (Mid-East)
Maya (American)

It's not so fun like Polinezian (what is Polinezian civilization? Science? Conquest? Religion? Please, call me at least one Polinezian book or military commander and I take my words back) but more history justificated.
 
my list is:
1. Nubians (competition for Egypt)
2. Nigerians (game needs western african civ)
3. Aboriginies
4. Polynesia
5. Inca
6. Minoan (Extremly Important meditteranean civ)
7. Cambodia (Fills the region)
8. Indonesia (Fills the region)
 
I think you should change the Russians to more Modern Russia, In other words why not USSR or Warsaw pact which would include your minorities.
 
and I must admit having not taken the time to read the entire (loooong) thread.

Anyway, here's some ideas to throw out for anyone interested:

Dravidians... people of southern India, and, in likelihood, of northern India prior to the influx of Indo-Aryans and later Iranians (Sakas) and Mughals (Mongols). Dravidians are also theorized to be the racial/linguistic stock of the ancient Elamites, who figured prominently in early Mesopotamian history (and were ultimately absorbed by the southwest Persians). There is also some theorizing that the Hadraumats of southern Arabia are Dravid in their origin (and not African). Anyway, these are a somewhat forgotten historical (and modern) population whose greatest contribution to civilization may have been buried in the ruins of Mohenjo Daro and Harrapa.

Anasazi... another lost people, these ancient Amerindians populated the four corners area of the American Southwest many thousands of years ago. Their society seems to have imploded and scattered with the denuding of their lands (reminiscent to some degree of Saharan and Easter Island crypto-histories). They are most notable for their haunting and (to my eyes) magnificent cliff-face cities - which you can still visit today. They never advanced beyond the stone age, but they are interesting.

Mississippi Mound Builders... like the Anasazi, these people are largely lost to history, as there are no written records of their existence, only their monumental earthworks. Personally, I'd incorporate this culture into the broader, semi-fictive framework of the "Dakota" civ, which would also include the earth-lodge, agrarian Mandans of the Missouri River.

Scyths (more broadly representing the various influential Iranian steppe peoples, such as Sakas, Sarmatians, Amazons, Roxolani, Alans, and possibly Cimmerians and Khazars)... the original horse lords of central Asia. Before the Turks, before the Mongols, these Iranian-speaking nomads (like those other steppe people) didn't so much create empires as they took over and engreatened the empires of others. Their list of control is impressive and includes empires of India, Anatolia, the Persian plateau, the Hungarian plains, and along the central Asian trade routes. The Iranian command of the steppe was for far longer and sustained as much or more influence than the subsequent Turks and Mongols (and they provided the cultural and racial substrate for later Turk, Russian, Mongol, and Gothic populations).

Malays (Indonesians)... I bet this has been said, but even if so should be repeated. The influence of Malay traders over southeast Asia is obscured by subsequent European traders.

Zimbabwe... something happened there (not much, granted).

Benin... this was a legitimate west African Kingdom that excerted some influence for a short time.
 
here's an interesting but forgotten one..

northern korea.

i don't mean DPRK, i mean Ancient Choson, Koguryo, and Parhe from 2333. b.c. to about 1000 a.d.

the Koreans in PTW is representative of southern kingdoms like Koryo and Choson.

these northen kingdoms are, imo, much more interesting..

they were so strong not even china was able to do much against them.. Ancient Choson lasted from 2333 b.c. to 108 b.c. controlling east coast of china to manchuria.. Koguryo is known to have had the top heavy cavalry in east asia.. It was said that 3 Parhe men could catch a tiger bare-handedly..

they were very tough. Sui China attempted to conquer Koguryo with millions and millions of men, but resulted in humiliating defeats, and the fall of Sui. Tang that rose continued invasions into Koguryo but failed and failed before forming an alliance with Silla to make a two-front war against Koguryo. even after Koguryo's defeat, it's people fought off the Tang conquerers, and formed Parhe. then Parhe expanded into China, Manchuria, and Siberia, and the size of Parhe was 30 times the size of the Korean Peninsula.

and they had strong navies too, and they controlled the East Sea and the Yellow Sea. Chinese invasions by sea failed most of the time because of that, and Japanese navy was non-existent compared to Koreans..
 
The byzantines were culturally greek, not roman. They spoke greek and were centered in greece and had a greek religion variant. And the italians are the romans are the italians. In reality, unlike in the game, the cultural influence of defeated civs stays around and can still culture flip cities. Instead of reseed.
And there ought to be spin off civs where when cities go into civil disorder there is a chance--similar to the culture flip probability-- that they will convert to a totally new civ (of which there could be a list like leaders and cities) taking all units and cultural buildings in the city along with them. Thus you should get new civs like America spun off from England and the Confederacy, spun off from that. Though that last might be confusing government with civilization.
 
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