What do you know about the holocaust?

[History_Buff]

Actually, when you think about it, most of the Nazi's probably weren't as evil as Hitler, just looking for an easy way to gain luxury in a harsh system.

But one of the more horrible things is that of the Jews who were able to escape only four hundred were allowed political asylum in Canada, the land of freedom, for refugees anyway.

And many jews were killed before 1940, so not all of the numbers out there are correct.

 

[Flatlander Fox]

I know quite a bit about it, but it stretched to more than what many consider to be the Holocaust.

Widespread Anti-Semitism in Germany was apparent in Bleichroder and Bismarck's time, and the Jewish population was an easy target for Hitler's populist party. Many laws were passed restricting most basic freedoms, and Nazi theft (called seizures) was commonplace. Jews were no longer Germans, they were merely Jews. Without writing a book on the subject, I'll suffice to say that I know quite a bit about it, including the origins of the deep seated mistrust of Germans of the Jewish faith by many Catholic Germans at the time.

I learned about the "concept" of the holocaust in school, but not the shocking reality. We watched old films, and thought that something like this could NEVER happen in America. Very scant.

But since I am a history freak, I studied it, and struggled to understand HOW people could do this to other people. People who are your fellow countrymen. How people can wantonly kill children?

How?




After reading the rest of the thread:

Can somebody tell me how the Jewish faith translates into Jewish race?

Last time I checked, a very good friend of mine (who is so black he is almost blue) was Jewish. Another argument entirely?

Back to topic: I have been to Dachau, AND Auschwitz. Both places had a grim air about them, but didn't affect me as badly as watching a helicopter being loaded with a dying Serbian girl (Aged 11). Her father's house had been blown up (he survived with serious injuries), her Mother was dead, and one of her siblings was also dead.

She died enroute to the medical center. Her father's house had been blown up by Albanian separatists (Or terrorists, depending on which side you favor).

What I have learned about the terrible events of our entire history is that we haven't learned ANYTHING.

 

[Flatlander Fox]

Pellaken, aren't you the guy who said that ethnic cleansing didn't happen in Bosnia/Croatia/Kosovo.


Maybe you should start treading lightly... The Nazi hunters could be looking for you... I hear the Israelis shoot well.

 

[Pellaken]

Originally posted by Flatlander Fox
Pellaken, aren't you the guy who said that ethnic cleansing didn't happen in Bosnia/Croatia/Kosovo.


Maybe you should start treading lightly... The Nazi hunters could be looking for you... I hear the Israelis shoot well.

I never said that. not the way you make it sound. ethinic cleansing means trying to wipe that ethnicity off the earth (hence the holocaust) the serbs only tried to kill people living on thier land! thats not ethnic cleansing. sorry.

also, I never said it the serbs dident do land cleansing, just that they dident start the war. they did it, thats a fact. *for the record, we started WW2... but it was woth it* I have... reasons for taking the serbs side in those wars.

 

[Pellaken]

Originally posted by Flatlander Fox
Back to topic: I have been to Dachau, AND Auschwitz. Both places had a grim air about them, but didn't affect me as badly as watching a helicopter being loaded with a dying Serbian girl (Aged 11). Her father's house had been blown up (he survived with serious injuries), her Mother was dead, and one of her siblings was also dead.

I remember... watching, during the crisis in kosovo... 2 guys drove up in car, shooting. they were, in turn shot. the driver was killed, but the passenger was hit in the spine, and only paralyzed. the germans spent almost 30 minutes, treating 1 soldier, who's thumb had been hit. leaving the dieing man in the car the whole time. meanwhile, the ABC reporter filed his death.
and he did die, before the soldiers, whos medical facilities looked to the naked eye, to have 5 doctors, got to him. the area was secure (hence the camrea in the dieing man's face) yet nothing was done

I'll NEVER forgive 'the west' for that. it was on that day that I made up my mind that I must defend the serbs with truth. the 100% truth is that I think what they did was wrong, but what the people there did, on that day, was SO wrong, that nothing can EVER equal it.... ever....

 

[Apollo]

1) I know a lot about the Holocaust, too much to write here with the time I'm willing to spend. It was the Nazi leadership in Germany using the Jews as a scapegoat for all the problems Germany faced in the post WW1 era, and brainwashing the public to think that the Aryans were a superior race to all others, especially the Jews. They used this as an excuse to round up the Jews, first in Germany and then in the countries they conquered, take all their possessions to distribute to the government and the Aryan Germans, and send them off to internment camps. At these camps they were put to work as was expected to happen. The thing that wasn't as well known at the time was that they were also systematically exterminated at these camps, usually with gas chambers. Millions were killed in this way.

2) I was educated extensively about it in several different History classes, some in Elementary School, some in Middle School, and some in High School. I remember seeing pictures taken by the first troops to reach the concentration camps, and the first time I saw them it just about stopped my heart.

 

[Vrylakas]

I think the Holocaust is a very dangerous topic for many still nowadays. The passions of all involved are still a bit too hot for some to handle. I think the British historian John Keegan was on the mark when he wrote in 1992 that a history of the Second World War hasn't been written yet; all we have so far are triumphalism and apologetics. Most are too caught up in their national identities to want to really take an objective look at what happened in 1939-1945.

I've been to Auschwitz-Birkenau, I've stood over mass graves in Warsaw, Krakow, Budapest and Pecs.

Which brings to mind a slight digression, the over-use of some of the Nazi metaphor. I personally disagree with Sharon and his policies in Israel, but some on the European Left have taken recently to making wild accusations comparing Sharon to Hitler - a bit of a stretch, I'm afraid. I wonder what their reaction is to Adriano Sofri's (an Italian leftist radical) article this past weekend on the subject...?

 

[mrog]

I don't mean this to be a controversial question, but how is the number of victims arrived at?

When I studied it in school- going back about 15 years- the figure was put at around 5 million. Since then I've most often heard the figure put at 6 million, and one poster above put it at 7 million.

Now, from my point of view, the morality of the issue doesn't change whether there were 6 victims or 600 million- evil is evil, but I have sometimes wondered how these numbers are arrived at.

Clearly 6 million is a rounded estimate- but how was it determined? Does anyone here know (as opposed to being able to conjecture)?

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

The Nazi regime was a meticulous record maker, even with effort at the end of the war to destroy some evidence, there was a treamedous amount of records available on the subject.

 

[mrog]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
The Nazi regime was a meticulous record maker, even with effort at the end of the war to destroy some evidence, there was a treamedous amount of records available on the subject.

Yes I know a little about that (and have read something about the involvement of IBM), but meticulous record keeping doesn't explain why estimates vary from 5 - 6 million or why more precise estimates aren't given (at least not to my knowledge).

 

[Magnus]

Well let's see... The German Nazi party blamed the Jews for all of Germany's problems, they blamed them for economic downturns, they blamed 'international Jewry' for World War One, they blamed the Jews for Versailles, they thought the Jews were out to get them - these people (Nazi's) were very sick and paranoid, their outlandish assumptions took on a life of their own and once they believed all the BS enough, it became very easy for them to think of a Jew as less than nothing, and thus it became as easy to murder a Jew as it was to break an egg for an omelette.

Neo Nazi's and skinheads today STILL blame the Jews for their 'problems' - won't these people ever learn? Are they such blind idiots? Their 'philosphies' are bathed in ignorance. They even try to lower the amount of people killed in the concentration camps and say that nobody was ever gassed. The bastards. I would like to beat them to a pulp - but then I would be just like them, wouldn't I?

Never forget. Never again.

 

[PinkyGen]

Originally posted by Pellaken


1/3rd of all jews were killed
7 million jews were killed

Actually, I believe the number is around 2/3rds killed. Six million is the traditional number, but you are correct in that it is closer to seven million, after the opening of Russian files. Also, I am not sure of this, but around maybe 5 other million were killed in camps (gypsies, gays, mentally ******ed).

A lot of what I learned about the Holocaust I learned Hebrew School, but also some in my regular school, where we devoted an entire school day to the subject once.

 

[Simon Darkshade]

I know quite a bit about it. It was touched upon in my schooling, and have done some tertiary courses on the matter, but the majority of my knowledge comes from personal study, which has been most extensive.

 

[knowltok2]

Originally posted by Hitro

Why exactly is that? Don't get me wrong, I won't say it's a bad idea to visit a camp, but I don't really get how that (alone) should educate people. I have to say that I have never been to one, despite living 'remotely close' to them. It's not that I don't want to visit it, but it's not that I want it either. In fact being at the actual place of historic events has never been very interesting for me. Still I would call myself a human being...
From what I've heard from people who visited camps the reactions are quite different. Many are very impressed, but other's are not that much, and I would count myself to them. It's the same with pictures, I don't get such strong feelings from them. For me other things are far more impressive, for example reports that survivors give or also reading actual files and other bureaucratic remnants of that time. These things show the true cruelness of what happened more drastic than a place can, at least to me.
Maybe I have just seen too many pictures and films about it.

I never said that that alone should educate a person. I can only speak for Dachau, but there is more to it than just a site. It is a museum of sorts with the picture, testimonials, videos, and reconstructions. Perhaps you are not one to be moved when standing in the gas chamber or staring into the ovens, but I find it brings an added something to the experience after having heard survivors talking about it and seeing the pictures and buildings. Actually seeing the wrought iron "Arbeit Macht Frei" is rather chilling.

It is obvious that you see the nature of the event, and that is of course the most important part. I just feel that we have an obligation to not shrink from confronting the darkness that is within us.

Do as you will, but your investment in a visit would likely not be more than a few hours of your time and a few Euros in gas. You have probably spent more of both on bad movies.

 

[Flatlander Fox]

To Pellaken: LOL@ the ears thing.

But now to seriousness... Once somebody has decided to shoot at you, Geneva convention or not, he is the enemy. They decided to attack a German armored vehicle in a civilian car, got shot up, and died from their wounds. The Germans treated THEIR wounded.

Perhaps this guy should have thought about his attack more carefully.

Hating the west gets you nowhere, because the west did the right thing by stepping in. Two dead Serbs vs. MANY more Albanians if we had not began our bombing and occupation of Kosovo, I think you can do the math.


To Big Bird: As ludicrous as your comparison is, I'll clue you in on something that you probably already know: Israel COULD wipe out all the Palestineans if they wanted to. They have enough bullets and bombs to kill every Palistinean on the PLANET. They could get away with it. So if that was their INTENT, they would have already done so. So clearly that is not their intent, and not their aim.

But if the Palestineans were able to wipe out the Israelis, would they have the same restraint? From their recent actions, I would say it's doubtful.

 

[Hitro]

Originally posted by knowltok2
I never said that that alone should educate a person. I can only speak for Dachau, but there is more to it than just a site. It is a museum of sorts with the picture, testimonials, videos, and reconstructions. Perhaps you are not one to be moved when standing in the gas chamber or staring into the ovens, but I find it brings an added something to the experience after having heard survivors talking about it and seeing the pictures and buildings. Actually seeing the wrought iron "Arbeit Macht Frei" is rather chilling.

I don't think it won't touch me at all, far from that, but I don't think visiting a camp could really extend or even change my view on these things.

It is obvious that you see the nature of the event, and that is of course the most important part. I just feel that we have an obligation to not shrink from confronting the darkness that is within us.

Maybe I just don't understand what you mean, but I don't think it has anything to do with shrinking from confrontation. Like I said, visiting a place doesn't confront me more with things than books or films about it. (This is generally the case, not only for the Holocaust)
Not even very long ago I saw that movie about the 'Wansee Conference', which is nothing else then a recreation of the talks the Nazi officials held there. Now this was extremely chilling, I can only recommend watching it if someone's interested in the topic, and it is cruel despite there's not a single dead body in it.

Do as you will, but your investment in a visit would likely not be more than a few hours of your time and a few Euros in gas. You have probably spent more of both on bad movies.

Hmm, I don't spend much money on movies, but your point is valid of course.
Again, don't get me wrong, I would advocate that people (for example in school) should visit concentration camps as part of history (or whatever) class about the Holocaust. When I was at school we made a class trip to Munich and one day the teacher asked if we wanted to visit the camp of Dachau. The majority didn't want to so we didn't go. I was in favour of it then, so it's not that I'm against it, I just see no need for it myself.

Now considering the Nazi/Hitler/Holocaust comparisons:
I don't think much of it, as every single atrocity or even genocide that occured in history has it's own story and it's own victims and perpetrators. I also think it's kind of a disrespect towards the victims (any) if people are playing around with death toll figures like 'Stalin killed so and so many more people than Hitler' or 'The Nazis killed millions, Pinochet just thousands'. What does that mean? Pinochet is innocent? No, of course not, a crime is a crime, and they don't get better or worse by being compared to others.
So I don't think much of calling Sharon for example 'a Hitler'. That doesn't mean I agree with Sharon's methods. As an analogy you can say: 'The existence of serial killers doesn't justify robbery.'
But of course the Holocaust is always somewhere around if Israel is discussed, that probably won't change soon. But as wrong as I find such comparisions, I also can't get how someone who I'd expect to be as much influenced by this part of history as an Israeli can advocate policies like occupation. I don't think it's the right place to discuss this though.

 

[knowltok2]

Originally posted by Hitro

I don't think it won't touch me at all, far from that, but I don't think visiting a camp could really extend or even change my view on these things.

Maybe I just don't understand what you mean, but I don't think it has anything to do with shrinking from confrontation. Like I said, visiting a place doesn't confront me more with things than books or films about it. (This is generally the case, not only for the Holocaust)
Not even very long ago I saw that movie about the 'Wansee Conference', which is nothing else then a recreation of the talks the Nazi officials held there. Now this was extremely chilling, I can only recommend watching it if someone's interested in the topic, and it is cruel despite there's not a single dead body in it.


Hmm, I don't spend much money on movies, but your point is valid of course.
Again, don't get me wrong, I would advocate that people (for example in school) should visit concentration camps as part of history (or whatever) class about the Holocaust. When I was at school we made a class trip to Munich and one day the teacher asked if we wanted to visit the camp of Dachau. The majority didn't want to so we didn't go. I was in favour of it then, so it's not that I'm against it, I just see no need for it myself.

You have obviously given the subject a lot of thought, and that is the confrontation I am talking about. Living in Germany may well help you in that regard. My statement is general of course and their can be execptions. There are plenty of people who already have an appreciation for the subject and like yourself likely won't gain much from a visit beyond what they already possess.

My opinion is more for the masses of people around the world who have not had any real reason to truely confront the Holocaust. You have, I assume, in part because you are German, and or live in Germany. I am an American, and my appreciation for the American Revolution doesn't require that I visit Lexington and Concord. (I will when I get up that way though) I guess I am thinking more of the non German and non Jew who do not have the Holocaust as part of their inherent history. Given the spotty nature of the school coverage attested to here in this thread, I think that many people could benefit from a visit, and to me, it is a part of history that we can come even close to ignoring. I also think that the people on this board are more into history than the 'average' person, and I suspect that most people have not done the independent study that many of the posters on this thread have.

 

[Richard III]

Originally posted by History_Buff
And many jews were killed before 1940, so not all of the numbers out there are correct.

Before I join Ffox in the delicious debate above, I just wanted to ask HB whassup with this? I'm just (genuinely) curious what you mean.

R.III

 

[Richard III]

Originally posted by Pellaken


I remember... watching, during the crisis in kosovo... 2 guys drove up in car, shooting. they were, in turn shot. the driver was killed, but the passenger was hit in the spine, and only paralyzed. the germans spent almost 30 minutes, treating 1 soldier, who's thumb had been hit. leaving the dieing man in the car the whole time. meanwhile, the ABC reporter filed his death.
and he did die, before the soldiers, whos medical facilities looked to the naked eye, to have 5 doctors, got to him. the area was secure (hence the camrea in the dieing man's face) yet nothing was done

I'll NEVER forgive 'the west' for that. it was on that day that I made up my mind that I must defend the serbs with truth. the 100% truth is that I think what they did was wrong, but what the people there did, on that day, was SO wrong, that nothing can EVER equal it.... ever....

So foreign policy really SHOULD be driven by CNN then!

This is the trouble with TV-fed moral equivelancy these days. If my brother was in action and he committed a war crime, tough on him, it's a war crime. But you have to distinguish between bad things that happen in wars vs. bad things that happen as a deliberate, organized matter of policy. In the above example, you can blame the individuals. In the Yugoslavian situation

It's like I said before, Pellaken. I will be the first to admit that Bosnian Federalists committed war crimes. But they were fewer in number because they were individual acts; a symptom of a savage war. The far larger number of Serbian crimes is no coincidence because the entire Serbian war effort was criminal. It was founded on the idea that Serbian regional hegemony could be promoted by inflaming a dominant population with a mindset that they were an oppressed "minority" and invading accordingly.

And in the context of this thread? No, Serbian Nationalism and its ethnic cleansing was not as sophisticated or well organized as the Holocaust. I'm sure there are some who wish it was. And the Croat extremists, I have to add, were probably closer to that sick ideal than the Serbs were, only they had more finesse. But it does not in any way demean those who survived the Holocaust to make the comparison, because frankly, I want to move as far away from having holocausts of any degree as possible, and I'm sure they would as well.

And please note my restraint in continuing to observe my six-month "no comment" policy on the Mideast.

R.III

 

[Pellaken]

"It's like I said before, Pellaken. I will be the first to admit that Bosnian Federalists committed war crimes. But they were fewer in number because they were individual acts; a symptom of a savage war. The far larger number of Serbian crimes is no coincidence because the entire Serbian war effort was criminal. It was founded on the idea that Serbian regional hegemony could be promoted by inflaming a dominant population with a mindset that they were an oppressed "minority" and invading accordingly. "

will you also admit that the US and Germany started the war? if so, then we agree 100%.


also, there were 7 million jews killed in WW2... about 7 million in other war camps, thats 14 million. about 3.5 million on the battlefields of all countries except russia. thats 16.5 million... are you all aware that 17 million coviet citizens did not survive the war? the jews werent the only ones the nazi's hated


also, lets assume the neo-nazi's are right. that the jews controal the watchymacallit and all. well, frankley, they are doing a damn fine job! and if true, then I'd rather live in this jewish dominated world the one dominated by nazi's!
also, if you belive the jews controal the world, I have an invisible country I'd like to sell you...