What do you know about the holocaust?

[Richard III]

Fair comment Hitro. And thanks, Lefty, I was wondering when that was going to happen. If we don't watch it, every forum will eventually be assimilated into an ME debate - which is partly why I am avoiding such debates in the first place.

R.III

 

[G-Man]

What lessons do you think we were tought by the holocaust? I can think of several issues:
1. Unlike the situation before the holocaust, today we realise that any racism is dangerous.
2. Liberalism and modernism doesn't mean a country can't be caught in a dark, primitve idea such as racism.
3. People must always stop and think about what they're doing and not just to go with the flow.

Anyone wants to add something?

 

[knowltok2]

4. We are capable of just as much if not more evil and barbarity than anything we read about in Ancient and Midevil history.

 

[philippe]

many belgian nazi volunteers

well richard there where 21 people who joined the nazis
thats very much to you he?
while a huge part of france was nazi so DONT attack belguim

 

[Richard III]

Originally posted by philippe

well richard there where 21 people who joined the nazis
thats very much to you he?
while a huge part of france was nazi so DONT attack belguim

That wasn't me, it was AoA saying that, I was just quoting him.

Although in his defence, 21 sounds a little small to me. While there may have been, say, only 21 Belgian members of the SS legion, surely there were more collaborators, which was AoA's point. I would include people ratting on Jews to the Nazis - or ratting anyone out, for that matter, as fitting in that category.

R.III

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Originally posted by philippe

well richard there where 21 people who joined the nazis
thats very much to you he?
while a huge part of france was nazi so DONT attack belguim

I'm sorry Philippe, that simply isn't so:

http://www.geocities.com/narwa44/article1.htm
http://internettrash.com/users/library/euro_1.htm

Belgium and it's citizens volunteered for Nazi service, a whole lot more then 21, the number is in the thousands.

 

[mrog]

Well thanks for that AOL, although it doesn't really address my question.

Almost everybody who responded to G-man's original question stated the number of victims as something they knew about the holocaust- but I wonder what it is based on. You noted that it is still hotly debated- I hope the heat is not entirely due to political (whether racist or nationalistic) pressures to move the figure up or down.

It seems to me that some people percieve the evil in the number of victims- whereas I see the evil in the intention. Even if the plans had not been able to be put into action, the people who made the plans would be no less evil imo.

From that perspective the number is not important, but from the perspective of distinguishing fact from guesswork- it is important. Whatever else the holocaust was and continues to represent, it was still an historical event.

I have access to a number of good libraries as well as electronic databases- so if you know of a good treatise on this topic there's a good chance I can find it.

Thanks for your help.

 

[jkharvey]

I have immersed myself in this topic in my past and there are several books I highly recommend on the the Holocaust.

The first one is very popular, it is called Night, by Elie Wiesel. (if you ever get the chance to hear him speak DO NOT miss it!!!!!)

The second one I recommed is Ordinary Men by Christofer Browning. This one illustrates just how easy it was for other Europeans to become willing accomplices to the Germans.

These to books really show the human side to the Holocaust from both sides.

 

[philippe]

well AoA
i have some numbers for you!
only 25 procent of the jews in our country where betrayed
in france 40 procent
in the netherlands 60 procent
so i think where are not that bad he?


in wo1 our little country had a heavy war we fought in the westhoek
even our king was a soldier he helped digging tunnels and helping soldiers instead of watching the soldiers died
albert1 was belguims greatest king

 

[G-Man]

I'll try to find these books.

mrog -
When talking about so many people killed in so many ways in so many places for so long (aprox. 7 years) there will always be some guess work. The numbers I hear the most are 6 million and 6,200,000 which I think is just more accurate. It's based on German paper work and evidences from both the Jews and the Germans. Eichman, in his trial, stated that in the final solution there were 6 million Jews killed.
Another thing that effects is the period of time you take. It's obvious the holocaust ended in 1945 with the German defeats and the allies taking over europe. However, the date it started can be argued. Will it be 1933, when hitler came to power? Will it be beween 1933-1939, when many antisemetic attacks were held? Will it be 1939 with the begining of WWII? Will it be the putting of Jews in Getos, or in concentration camps, or in work camps or in extermination camps?

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Philippe, I wasn't commenting on who was bad or good, merely pointing out that I knew of a famous Nazi voluteer formation made up of Belgians.

 

[GeneralTacticus]

1) I do know quite a bit about the Holocaust, although not really on a kind of deep-down level, it's basically something that I know happened, and that I know was very bad, but I don't have any kind of deep feelings about it.

The only time I tend to feel much about it is when I try to imagine what it must have been like fr those in the death camps. It just makes me feel sick.

2) At school, we have received no education on the Holocaust at all, everything I know I found out myself. They may teach us about it later on (I'm only in Yr 8 at high school), but so far we haven't been taught anything about it.

 

[Badluck]

1) i know what happenned, but i also know what the jew did after to other poeple and what they currently are doing.

IBM was selling Jew Counter to germany in the WW2!!!

2) Have been aprtially educated about that in school, but i learned most of what i know trough book, poeple i know.



I am not racist
I hate everybody Equally.

 

[IceBlaZe]

Originally posted by Badluck
1) i know what happenned, but i also know what the jew did after to other poeple and what they currently are doing.
...
I am not racist
I hate everybody Equally. [/B]

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by Badluck
1) i know what happenned, but i also know what the jew did after to other poeple and what they currently are doing.

If you'd know you wouldn't be putting these two things together.

 

[Grisu]

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae

Europe is still the same, even today, Jews are attacked for fighting for their lives, and terrorists are praised by Europe.

Thank god for the USA, we won't let Hitler's spirtual decendents finish the job.

aliciaties, do you really believe that crap? have you ever been to europe and seen what it is really like here?

it is true, there still exists to much racism (and i don't care if it's directed at jews or other minorities, it is always the same prehistoric bull****y ideology) in europe; but not more than in any other country of the world, especially the US.

 

[mrog]

Originally posted by G-Man
I'll try to find these books.

mrog -
When talking about so many people killed in so many ways in so many places for so long (aprox. 7 years) there will always be some guess work. The numbers I hear the most are 6 million and 6,200,000 which I think is just more accurate. It's based on German paper work and evidences from both the Jews and the Germans. Eichman, in his trial, stated that in the final solution there were 6 million Jews killed.
Another thing that effects is the period of time you take. It's obvious the holocaust ended in 1945 with the German defeats and the allies taking over europe. However, the date it started can be argued. Will it be 1933, when hitler came to power? Will it be beween 1933-1939, when many antisemetic attacks were held? Will it be 1939 with the begining of WWII? Will it be the putting of Jews in Getos, or in concentration camps, or in work camps or in extermination camps?

Thanks for those thoughts G-man.

I think it is interesting that on a forum where so many people are interested in this period of history, no one has been familliar with a treatise on the basis of these estimates.

As long as what is in the public domain is a fuzzy estimate, rather than a core documented figure with estimates of additional numbers stated seperately, then there will be room for agenda driven people to push the numbers up or down. It does no justice to history and no honour to the victims IMHO.