What do you know about the holocaust?

[G-Man]

Originally posted by ainwood
Yes. 1.) The 'worst' thing for inmates at concentration camps was the hopelessness of the situation. Those that still held hope could keep themselves alive; those that gave up died. In the extermination camps, there was no hope. 2.) In concentration camps, in the early part (early 1930's) some inmates were actually released. Didn't happen in extermination camps.

1) No danger except the fact they were forced to work 14 hours a day and while getting every day less 200 calories (!) of food and the death marches, not to mention the fact that the Germans didn't allow to bury the dead, and so causing these people who lived in awfull conditions (each person had 20cm X 140cm to sleep on, in a room that had so many people in it that many died in their sleep for lack of oxygen) to suffer from illnesess, and since an ill man can't work they were shot.
2) That was before the concentration camps were built so you can't compare them on that.



About the numbers of people killed: The correct number of jews killed is aprox. 6,200,000. You can't determine the exact number as many jews were killed by guards without registration - in death marchs, in working areas, in their bad from lack of air or an illness, etc.
The problem is that when numbers are so high people no longer know how much it is.
I mean try to take this event and compare to anything you know. For exmaple: The sep11th attack victims were on the headlines for a month (they were for longer but then oter issues also started making news). aprox 3000 people were killed. By that the holocaust was supposed to be in the news for over 172 years - untill 2117, and that's even without considering all the non jews who were killed! If Bin Laden would like to kill as many Americans as Hitler killed jews he would have to destroy 4133 towers.



"Good one Bigbird. But you have to remember the Israelis are smarter than the Nazis. They are slowling killing all the Palestinians.

>>> Do you have any evidence whatsoever about any Israeli attempt to kill Palestinian civilians?

Call them all terrorists

>>> We never said they were all terrorists but you can't deny some are.

, fire your bombs, accidentely hit the houses with the kids,

>>> Israel never used bombs against Palestinians. Accidents do happen in urban areas fightings. Ask anyone who knows anything about military strategies and he'll tell you that.

take all the men away, torture them, don't give them food

>>> Israel never took all the men. We only arrested those who were thought to be wanted. Those who weren't were released on the same day. Torturing is only allowed in case it's absolutly clear it will save lifes and only if it's used on terrorists. Israel also never banned food from anyone.

, and let the elders rot away so there won't be more Palestinians.
Also not letting the doctors through to help the injured just to insure that they die. Just proves how cold-blooded some Israelis are. Not even letting the medical personel through.

>>> Doctors are allowed into areas where the fighting has stopped. No one in his right mind will send civilian doctors to a battlefield before the fighting has ended. The IDF does proved medical treatment to anyone they can, whether they're Israeli or Palestinian, Civilians or gunmen.

Now that is inhumane and how the Israelis are torturing their detainees. Not feeding them.

>>> The people who are torchured are always terrorists that have information that can save human lives and they won't reveal it. The first commitment of the Israeli security forces is to an Israel civilian's life, not to a Palestinian terrorists good health."


BigBird - You're a fool for believing such propoganda. There's a difference between a few hundreds Palestinians killed in fightings (a 150 of them killed themselves) after they attacked another country and millions of innocent people murdered because of their religion, skin color or family. I was talking about a holocaust as in a murder of people due to racism. Ofcource people are killed in other things as well, but that's not what we're talking about here. Yes, there are Palestinians killed and there are also Israelis killed. When Iraq invaded quwait they had 100,000 troops killed. It doesn't mean it was a holocaust. They chose to fight the US and they lost. The Palestinians chose to fight Israel and they're loosing. The pictures you showed just show how little you know about the holocaust. There a huge difference between people standing in line waiting to get their passport checked when they wanna go to work in another country and people in a death camp facing the German who will decide if they're capable of working for the 3rd reich or they should be murdered. There's a huge difference between a war, especially one you were forced to fight, and the murder of civilians.

 

[pavelsu]

Moderator Action: Let me make this perfectly clear, since some of you don't seem to understand.

Flaming and trolling are not permitted, you can disagree, but being polite is the key.

You choose not to, so we will see you in two days.

The next poster that ignores a moderator warning is gone for a week.

AoA
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[VoodooAce]

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae
Best explain, sonny.

And if it's an insult my way, you are gone.

Golly.

Guess I'd should start agreeing with you, AofA.

But you make it....well...impossible with quotes like the one Pavelsu quoted you on.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Flatlander Fox
As for the extermination vs. concentration camp thing, which would you have rather been in? Was there a BIG difference? Let me know.

Early during the war quite a bit of difference, by the eand of the war the main difference was means slaughter, commonly by privation at the older concentration camps, more by sophisticated excution schemes camps like Treblinka & Aushwitz.
Concentration camps, of course constantly change the purposes and methods throughout their existence, begining a a place to "concetrate" large numbers of target groups before administrative or hudicial proceedings determine what oppression would be inflicted on them, or as a preliminary to relocation, by the end of the war many had just turned into low rent extermination camps.
"Concetration" camps originated in the late 19th centrury as a means of controlling hostile local populations during the early part of military occupation.

 

[IceBlaZe]

I'm not the one who used this thread to imply his palestinien and pro-arab propaganda.
Just defending my view on the case

And I think what AofA said, is partially true.
Antisemitism IS rising in Europe.
The Anti-Semitite and Extreme-Right wing parties are getting stronger and stronger in some of the European countries (For example, Austria and Hungary).
The huge criticism on Israels actions are not only a result of how the European media displays the events, but also the result of the Europeans seeking more blame in the Jewish than in the poor and hapless palestiniens.
Psychologically, this CAN be a result of what Europe has done to the jews in world war two.
Trying to lift the weight of the Antisemitism and Nazism in Europeans starting in early 1800's and 1700's, and to finally find someplace to put it.
Israel.
Why be anti-Israel for nothing if you can look at one side of the conflict and actually have a 'justified' reason?

 

[VoodooAce]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe


Man you have no boundries voodooace?
You see no difference between hitler massacaring 6 million jews for being jews, to Israel torturing one terrorist to save the lives of dozens of other citizens?

You are making no distinction between security to racism.
Human security forces are here to protect innocent humans, and sometimes that includes torturing terrorists to save the lives of dozens of innocent citizens.
That's the choices you gotta make when your in this deep **** situation.
Would you not torture one terrorist knowing it can save the world from something like the 9/11 events?
Sometimes few have to suffer, to save the lives of the many.
Many does not have to suffer to save the decency of one mass-murderers pittyless terrorist few.

I sure hope you dont run my country VoodooAce. you would sacrifice my lives for the sake of terrorists

I don't know about you VAce, but I would hardly call saving the lives of dozens/hundreds/thousands of citizens a bullcrap excuse.
If saving innocent human lives is a bullcrap excuse, why should you defend yourself in war anyhow?
Why should you defend yourself against murderers?
We should not put murderers on prison to protect citizens. Protecting citizens is bullcrap. Protecting humans is bullcrap. We should all just let the evil live right through us, let it dominate it, because saving the good things in the world is just, well, bullcrap.

On the contrary. I do have boundries. That was my point.

Torturing crosses those boundries.

 

[baseballtwin86]

In my AP European History class (10th Grade), we have been talking extensively about the Holocaust and the Second World War. My teacher especially beleived that it was an important topic, and our class especially focused much of the 3rd quarter on the holoaust. We went over much of the human side of the holocaust, although our textbook only had a short paragraph on the subject. I beleive that I know a good deal about the holocaust. I read Night by Elie Weisel, a short, but moving account of the holocaust at Auschwitz and Birkenau.

I am glad that my teacher described the human side of the Holocaust. He gave us a lot of first hand accounts to read, and really stressed the importance of the Jews-Gypsies... and others, as real people, and not just some number of executed in the death camps.

In English class, we read Survival from Auschwitz by Primo Levi, another first hand account of the human destruction and devestation of the holocaust. I have never thought that the teachers/school system here have really ever tried to hide the Holocaust from us. However, some people's ignorance/ lack of care here in the US, especially among some students in school, may make it seem like some are'nt learning about the halocaust. But, one can easily learn about the holocaust if they listen. I think that my teachers have done an excellent job teaching the holocaust.

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Originally posted by Hitro

Pavelsu called that 'What stupid', which may not be eloquent, but he has a point. Still I don't mean to insult you, but you obviously don't have such problems. So todays Europeans are 'Hitler's spiritual descendants'?

People who blindly blame Israel for the middle east's problems sure are.

I'm really annoyed of this habit that people critisizing Israel are called antisemites.

I have a problem with people who care not how many jews are slaughtered by terror bombs, and sickeningly try to justify it as "freedom fighting".

That is nothing but stupid and ignorant, and shows every sign of opressive propaganda!

Been following the papers lately?
Jewish holy places are being attacked in Europe left and right, and no "peace activists" go to support israel.

I mean, there are people (also Jews) in Israel who critizise Sharon, are they antisemites too???

And what are these criticisms based?
Sharon has a 70% popularity rate in Israel, and it is climbing in this crisis, not lowering.
People in Israel are tired of being murdered by so called "freedom fighters" who blow up their children.
And before you say Israel kills kids, think about who hides among it's children, and poses 5 year olds with machine guns and teaches hate.

Of course there is anti-semitism in Europe, denying that would be a big mistake. No question that it has to be fought. But let's put it in perspective!

It is in perfect perspective.
European news services call Israel's civialian victims "propaganda", and decry Israel, unless the BCC sudenly left Europe.

1. There's much more hatred towards Arabs in Europe than antisemitism, at least in those countries where there are both Arab and Jewish minorities. So Europe is hardly pro-Arab.

Funny, you wouldn't think that from the stance countries like France and Germany take in politics.

2. 'Thank God for the USA'...

I don't give a rat's behind what you think of the USA, but my statement stands.

Do you have the slightest idea about the amount of antisemites in the U.S.? The US is the main base for Neo-Nazis today. Things like 'The Jews own Hollywooda and the media' or 'The Jew Media' are far more common in some places than they are in Europe.

So says someone not living here.
Try living in NY and see how popular neo-Nazis and such are, and what people think of such comments.
You would be in for a very rude shock.
I know that it exsists here, but it's not state sponcered.

Check a history book, Hitler did not 'rise on a anti-Jew platform', other issues were far more important, besides that he not even had a majority. That doesn't mean there was no widespread antisemitism but you're overexaggerate the importance of it for the people.

Nice try, but I gauruntee I know far more about this then you realize, I hold a masters in history, specifically European history from 1900-45.
I can recite chapter and verse Hitler's rise to power, so take that foot out of your mouth.

That, as Goldhagen's 'Willing Exucutioners' title, is an insult for the thousands of people who died for 'caring'.
Sure it weren't enough, but does that mean the ones who cared were worthless?

Millions of germans didn't, it's a fact, and you know it.
Hitler was incredibly popular with the man in the street before the war, they supported him to the tune of 80% in polls.
His major opposition was from communists and trade unions, both outlawed by Hitler and his bunch, and enforced with his SA.

This is a far too complex issue to give a judgement in one sentence, not every single person knew about it, many did of course, but as with the other things you are generalizing too much for my taste.

You speak like every European appologist I ever met, when confronted with the truth, it's always "too complex" or "you generalize".

Bad news, Hitro, Germany and it's people were guilty.
The Nazis were germans, the end result of centuries of anti-semitism, going back to the era of charlemagne, pograms against jews were common in Europe.

No matter what you think you know about the USA, Jews were never hunted down and slaugtered in the USA.
Blacks yes, not Jews.

Today many accept Germany's guilt, but we see, some still live in denile.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
1. What do you mean by collective punishment?

Retaliation against the persons or property of a community because of the actions of OTHER individuals of the community. (It does NOT include collateral damage cause by legitmate military operation targeted against combatants or infrastructure which supports combat.)

2. Why the settlers are criminals?

They are willing active participants in unlawful occupation and agrandisement of anothers territory and often in oppression based on ethnicity.

3. 'Israelies who use many different means to displace palestiniens'

Force, coercion, ecomonic sabatoge, confiscation of resource, etc designed to reduce the polulation of of the resident Plaestinians and open land to aggrandisment.
[/quote]4. Torture of terrorists is criminal scum? Since when, who says?[/quote] International LAW on this has devoped over a long persiod cuminating witn UN declations and Geneva accords (some geneva protections extend to all person captured, some only to lawful combatants) following WW2. Ther is NO real legal doubt on this matter.

On the same tone I can say that whoever jails criminals is criminal scum.

You could say it, but you would be lying.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

G-Man, this thread appears to have seriouly mutated from your original topic. PM me if you want me to split it into 2 threads.

 

[philippe]

i know about the holocaust that was your first quistion
2nd quistion no i have never been eduacated about it
we know what happened and we will never forget because its a plain example what happens when a racist rules a country

 

[mrog]

Earler on in this thread I asked how the estimated number of victims in the holocaust were arrived at. But haven't really been enlightened. Lefty mentioned German record keeping and G-man mentioned the uncertainty due to murders carried out "unofficially" for want of a better term bay guards etc. I had pretty much assumed that both these factors were at work, but how much of the estimate is tied to the first (i.e known in fact) and how much is tied to the second (i.e based on extrapolation or other methods).

Let me just re-state from my first post- The morality of the issue isn't affected by the number of victims, evil is evil whether its 6 victims or 600 million- I am simply interested in the process of estimating something of that magnitude.

I hope the question doesn't seem goulish or insensitive- it is not intended in that spirit.

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Originally posted by mrog
Earler on in this thread I asked how the estimated number of victims in the holocaust were arrived at. But haven't really been enlightened. Lefty mentioned German record keeping and G-man mentioned the uncertainty due to murders carried out "unofficially" for want of a better term bay guards etc. I had pretty much assumed that both these factors were at work, but how much of the estimate is tied to the first (i.e known in fact) and how much is tied to the second (i.e based on extrapolation or other methods).

Maybe I can a bit, but this issue is heavily debated still today, and web history is often erractic or downright incorrect, so with trepidation, we have:

http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/fivmil.htm
http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/
http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/people/victroma.htm

This last web site is very disturbing, but I include it for those trying to compare today's happenings with the Nazis:

http://www.fmv.ulg.ac.be/schmitz/holocaust.html

I urge everyone to look at all the pictures, to see what the Nazis were and what the Holocaust was, and it may become clear as to why modern day comparisions are so inappropriate.

The 5 million+ non-Jews killed by the Germans are mostly forgotten today, and then there are the millions of Russians also killed, nobody will ever know exactly how many people perished as a result of Hitler and his ilk.

I always remember this quote about the Holocaust:

What matters the death of a few million?
Who today remembers the Armenians?...Adolph Hitler, speaking on the Turkish murder of 2 million Armenians between 1914-22, as historical justifacation for his final solution to the jewish question.

 

[Richard III]

AOA, curious:

Do you think that all modern day comparisons are inappropriate?

Or do they just do not compare?

I have to say, I'm not sure I agree with the former. My self-imposed six months silence prevents me from expressing my agreement that comparisons to Palestine are absurd (whoops), and I am regarded as fairly sympathetic to Palestine in some circles.

But I do beleive comparisons to Bosnia are worthwhile, at least for the purposes of debate and reflection. More importantly, I do think it's pretty hard not to at least regard Rwanda as a low-tech, less twisted variation on the theme.

R.III

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Even Bosnia "etnic cleansing" pales by comparison, I believe, as a matter of scale.

Both the Balkans and Africa featured killing aplenty, but in neither case was it done systematically with the willing assistance of other nations.

In most of Western and Eastern Europe the Germans found willing populations only to happy to assist in mass murder.

Of course, many resisted, but just as many or more did not.

Places like Denmark fought tooth and nail to save it's Jews, while countries like Belgium had huge Nazi voluteers and asisted the killing (they had resistance also, of course).

Never before or since in human history was it thought to kill humans this way, to strip every bit of profit from them, from shaving and saving hair to pulling gold teeth from corpses.

Nothing can compare to this.

Nothing.

 

[IceBlaZe]

The hair of the jews was used to make pillows and the body fat - soap.

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae

http://www.fmv.ulg.ac.be/schmitz/holocaust.html

BigBird, here's the difference between the holocaust and the intifada.

About the non-jewish victims: They too should be remembered. It just shows you how little power the people have today. While jews lived in other places and were a larger group, other people killed in the holocaust weren't as strong and didn't have a country in the making when it happened and so untill today they don't have enough power to tell people about the atrocities they've been through. I hope the Armanians will succeed in telling the world about what happened to them just as I want non jewish of the holocaust to be able to tell their stories.

 

[Richard III]

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae
Even Bosnia "etnic cleansing" pales by comparison, I believe, as a matter of scale.

Both the Balkans and Africa featured killing aplenty, but in neither case was it done systematically with the willing assistance of other nations.

In most of Western and Eastern Europe the Germans found willing populations only to happy to assist in mass murder.

Of course, many resisted, but just as many or more did not.

Places like Denmark fought tooth and nail to save it's Jews, while countries like Belgium had huge Nazi voluteers and asisted the killing (they had resistance also, of course).

Never before or since in human history was it thought to kill humans this way, to strip every bit of profit from them, from shaving and saving hair to pulling gold teeth from corpses.

Nothing can compare to this.

Nothing.

I guess this is my point in action, AoA. While the Holocaust certainly trumps all in scale, viciousness, coldness, ugliness and mechanical efficiency in murder, it gets used as a point of comparison because it is the extreme. It's the thing [almost] everyone obviously wants to avoid, so it's the point of reference to say "are we letting it get to be anything like the Holocaust?"

As I'd said earlier, I think Bosnia is worth talking about in comparison if only to compare the degree of hate needed to carry it that far; if Serb nationalists had been capable of conducting a Holocaust, would they have? I think maybe, and I'm sure there's good reasons to say "not at all," but it's a valid conversation.

And Rwanda did happen in part because of the collusion or indifference of foreign states and organizations, France in particular. In much the same way, Allied governments continued to deny anything was happening for the worst of reasons in WWII: indifference, concern about refugee hassles, and outright bigotry. Granted, Rwanda was Africa-sized, but it certainly was as systematic as one would expect in a state with that GDP and the resources available. .

Would you still use the capital H in Holocaust if the Germans had never used gas, and, say, had only confined their efforts to shooting parties wandering from country to country? (I would)

It's just that I have this idea - maybe it's presumptuous, I dunno -that most victims of the holocaust would on balance not wish anything even close, whatever the scale, efficiency or twistedness, on anyone. And if the memory that "it can get that bad" were to help in the cause of preventing anything from getting anywhere close, provided the distinctions were remembered, so much the better.

R.III

http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/1997/08/04/intl/intl.6.html

http://www.oneworld.org/news/africa/news_rwanda_killers.html

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/rwanda/reports/prunierexcerpt.html

 

[Hitro]

As I said earlier in this thread I dislike comparisions of that kind, no matter how similar some aspects may be. We are always talking about humans here, in some cases thousand in some even millions. I think it is nothing but wrong and heartless to compare one death toll against the other to find out what was 'the worst genocide ever'.
Sure the Holocaust wasn't the only genocide in mankind's history, unfortunately far from that. AofA mentioned the Armenians, something that indeed is widely forgotten today, and not many Turks would question their nationalism because of it. The were genocides in Africa, on the Balkans, the Japanese murdered probably millions of Chinese.
But still the Holocaust is the worst and most important we can think of, partly for the industrial ruthlessness with which it was acted out. But I think part of the reason for that lies in a latent racism (I know that is a provocative thesis). Let me explain:
When someone tells the people in Europe or the US (I'm talking about the average 'man on the street' not that much the forum members) about 'some' genocide in Africa, they don't really care much. And I think at least for some of them the reason for that is kind of racism, they think 'well, these savages hack their heads off down there, nothing new'. When they hear about Asia many don't care that much because that is 'far away'.
But the Holocaust involved Europeans (and the white Americans are Europeans too in that sense), mainly Germans and Jews. It showed that things like that don't only happen where those are involved, that we (the 'great white race', including the European Jews in this sense) can regard as savage or underdeveloped.
Furthermore, it was even worse than anything that happened anywhere else. So it indeed was the worst ever.
Germany is and was a country in the center of Europe with an old European-christian tradition and culture. Here the excuses end. For Germans they end definetely, some other white people may try to evade into things like regarding Germans as a race on its own but that is nonsense even in racist terms. Neither Christianity nor technology, the two big contenders for the minds of the people in the West, prevented it. The Vatican kept silent and technology killed more than sticks and spears could ever have done.
So as a conclusion I would say that we could learn from studying the Holocaust not only what racism can lead to, but also how stupid and wrong it is and that we have to fight every trace of it.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

The current ME conflict content has been split out of this thread (As best I can judge, only the first two line of a post are displyed in the split thread screen)
This thread is to reamin on the topic of the Holocaust!